So, a Brompton...

[Tewdric]

You effectively get a Brompton free and only lose the interest on the purchase price, since one that is bought new and looked after will, it has been frequently observed, maintain its original sticker price.  Whether this continues when the new price (which has been escalating shamefully given the relatively flat labour costs and zero inflation) hits the £1000 bike-to-work limit and stalls, I don't know.  I would wager that a huge proportion of UK-bought Bromptons are bought on the scheme.

If you buy on the cyclescheme as a higher rate tax payer you turn a small profit every four years when you buy a new one!

[rogerzilla]

Some people turn them over annually.  If you pay 40% tax, your employer doesn't keep the VAT saving and the final value is set absurdly low, a £1000 bike can cost not much more than half the sticker price.  I shall leave the reader to ponder on the moral implications and the stupidity of whoever drafted that particular Finance Bill.

[rogerzilla]

Having squandered my money on a Brompton, I can't afford taxis, so the pump stays.  As does the CO2 inflator that lurks at the bottom of my C-bag, because the Brompton pump is feeble.

If you give a Brompton a full canister of CO2, does the tyre pop off the rim?  Assuming the tyre is a perfect torus, the volume of a Kojak is roughly 0.349*pi²0.014² = 0.66 litres.  16g of CO2 is (16/44)*24 = 8.7 litres at room temperature, which would give you 8.7/0.66 = 13.2 atm in your tyre, or 194psi.  Allow for the volume of the canister itself, which you obviously can't evacuate when using, and you've probably still got 185psi.  A Marathon Plus is quite a bit bigger so would be less likely to pop off.  The gas cools substantially as it leaves the canister so the pressure will be less than this to start with, but will increase maybe 5-10% as it warms up to ambient temperature.

A road bike tyre is more like a litre, and a canister is about right for one of those; it gets it nicely hard (oo-er) at about 120psi.

Someone needs to try this in the interests of SCIENCE, using a proper inflator which screws firmly onto the valve.

[Kim]

If you give a Brompton a full canister of CO2, does the tyre pop off the rim?

Someone needs to try this in the interests of SCIENCE, using a proper inflator which screws firmly onto the valve.

I've tested it in the interests of not being stranded in the pissing rain, using a proper inflator that screws firmly onto the valve, with a twist valve for decent control of the flow.  Unfortunately, I stopped when the tyre pressure felt about right, rather than giving it the whole cartridge.

Given the above calculations, a 12g canister would seem like the optimal approach.  If I hadn't bought a job lot of 16g ones several yonks ago.

[rogerzilla]

The irony is that CO2 inflators were originally used by mountain bikers (it being difficult to fit a pump on a typical fat tubed compact MTB frame, and the mud would ruin it anyway), yet one cartridge is incapable of inflating the typical 2.1" tyre (about 4 litres) to more than 30psi, which is really too soft for comfort if you're riding on rocky stuff.  Been there, done that.  On a 29er, you really are SOL.

Do they make 24g cartridges?  Probably not, as I think they are just Sparklets cartridges diverted to a more lucrative market.

[Tewdric]

Some people turn them over annually.  If you pay 40% tax, your employer doesn't keep the VAT saving and the final value is set absurdly low, a £1000 bike can cost not much more than half the sticker price.  I shall leave the reader to ponder on the moral implications and the stupidity of whoever drafted that particular Finance Bill.

The problem with that is the low final value only comes after the three year extended hire agreement.  While I'm sure no one at cyclescheme gives a monkeys, the bike is not actually yours to sell until the four year point. 

[Jakob W]

Has anyone left a job during the cyclescheme lease period and taken the bike with them? A Brompton is a strong candidate for my next n+1, but I didn't go for one via cyclescheme because there was a strong chance I'd be leaving the job within a year, never mind the formal 4-year scheme period.

[Biggsy]

No-one uses uncontrollable CO2 inflaters any more, do they?  The Innovation push-to-inflate ones work well, for example.  I use a micro pump for the easy first few psi, so a single 16g cartridge can help with more than one job even with my road bike tyres.

Never had to use it on my Brompton, though, as my Kojaks have never punctured.  (I can mention this since I don't believe in fairies).

[Kim]

CO₂ and small wheels discussed here: https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=92516.0

tl;dr:  'Never mind the diameter, feel the width'.  349 Marathons and Brompton Greens are pretty much spot on with a whole 16g cartridge.  Narrower tyres may be problematic.

[1nterceptor]

Gearing; 6 speed will give you the most flexibility(with a small weight penalty vs. 2 speed). Not familiar with the Tamsin trail; but looking at
some online pics - seems to be a path with hard packed soil. I prefer slick tires like Kojaks and Primos; they can handle some light off roading
as you can see in my video. But Marathons and Marathon Plus will probably the best on soil surfaces(don't run the max air pressure):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNuuT-nRer4&list=UUHyRS8bRu6zPoymgKaIoDLA&index=24

Chatting to the wife it would seem that the consensus is that a Brompton would be a suitable bike for family rides. We can sling two in the car along with the boy's bike. It can ride on most sensible surfaces and can carry bits and pieces on a rack/bag.

However, going out on the wife's S3 with rack I have some concerns. It seems overgeared for one. The bottom gear seems spinny until you hit a decent incline and/or a poor surface. How much does the -12% gearing change affect the hill climbing ability and also the top gear? I pushed up to 36km/h but didn't feel overgeared at the top. I also have a concern about when the going get rougher- the small wheels make the bike skittish on rougher surfaces. I think that I can concede that going across wimbledon common was a step too far, despite it being a designated cycle path but the Tamsin trail was not entirely fun, despite it being relatively well surfaced.

So, what can be done with a Brompton? Am I overthinking this? Will it be a good bike for those family days out along cycle paths etc as the boy grows up?

[rogerzilla]

The Marathon Plus should be the standard tyre really, in view of the trauma of changing a rear tube out on the road.  They roll OK but they are a substantial weight and they only just fit in the rear triangle!

[fruitcake]

In eight years of owning folding bikes I've learnt (a) not to compare them to full-sized bikes and (b) only to use them when full-sized bikes are not available. That's been the only way to avoid the frustration of the compromised ride quality and appreciate the benefits!

While I was choosing a folder, I read a really useful analogy, which went like this. There's a spectrum from 'normal ride quality' to 'small folded package'. Every bike sits somewhere on that spectrum. (I suspect the analogy applies mainly to bikes costing less than £1000, i.e. without Clever Technology to improve comfort. For instance I've heard good things about the Reise and Muller Birdy which has front and rear suspension.) Anyway, I now believe the Brompton sits at the 'small folded package end' of the spectrum.

For what it's worth, here are my initial thoughts on the ride quality of three folders which I tried back in 2007, at a time before I understood any of this and was evaluating them solely on ride quality. The bikes were a flat-bar Brompton, a Mezzo and a Dahon look-a-like.

http://cyclingfortransport.com/reviews/bikes/comparison-of-brompton-mezzo-dahon-folding-bike/

[rogerzilla]

I think it's just the initial shock of going from a diamond framed 700c bike to a Brompton that needs to be overcome.  After a while you get used to it, and learn to work with the bike rather than fighting it.  I've ridden a Brompton S-type from Oxford to London several times and didn't struggle to keep up with the others.    The small wheels are sluggish on coarse tarmac and there is a distinct lack of fore-and-aft rigidity but, on a reasonable piece of road and with smooth pedalling, they go fine.

To make a fair comparison you need to fit clipless pedals (assuming you normally ride with them) and do something about the squishy rear suspension block, either by putting a couple of jubilee clips around it or by swapping it out for the firm version.  Or both.  The S-type also benefits hugely from fitting stubby bar ends, so you have somewhere to pput your hands when climbing.

At least you didn't compare to the M-type; that is very dynamically challenged because of the high (and flexy) bars.  It's fine for relaxed cruising on the flat but is a horrible thing to climb on, and is positively skittish when cornering on bad surfaces (such as that accursed textured paving they use on psyclepaths) because there is next to no weight on the front wheel.

[fruitcake]

I was on flat pedals in 2007, but I accept my comparison was far from 'scientific'. Rather I was 'window shopping - with benefits'. And I should add that I rode a 2011 S-type Brompton two-speed around Surrey countryside and enjoyed it. Like the OP though, I found myself standing on the pedals to get up moderate hills.

The same year, my 'company car' was a Brompton M-type, and I concur it glides sublimely but needs lots of input to climb.

[fruitcake]

Menthel, you might get on with a Dahon. My MU P8 fits in a car boot and has gears galore. Here's my review:

http://cyclingfortransport.com/reviews/bikes/dahon-mu-p8-2007/

This one on sale at Evans seems a similar spec:

http://www.evanscycles.com/products/dahon/vigor-p9-2015-folding-bike--ec108226

[Kim]

I was on flat pedals in 2007, but I accept my comparison was far from 'scientific'. Rather I was 'window shopping - with benefits'. And I should add that I rode a 2011 S-type Brompton two-speed around Surrey countryside and enjoyed it. Like the OP though, I found myself standing on the pedals to get up moderate hills.

The same year, my 'company car' was a Brompton M-type, and I concur it glides sublimely but needs lots of input to climb.

My experience is that given clipless pedals, appropriate gearing, and enough attention to pedalling technique to avoid excessive suspension bounce, an S-type climbs just fine.  Indeed, it's on the climbs that my Brompton doesn't feel particularly lacking compared to my other bikes, while it's exhausting on the flat and underwhelming on the descents.

Can't really comment on the M/P type, I've only ever ridden them on gentle undulations that weren't worth changing gear for (and they were only 3-speeds anyway).

[sg37409]

You cant expect "normal" bike levels of performance from a brompton IMHO.
I'm still a newcomer to them, but they ride a lot better than I thought, and climbing is fine.   Slower than a normal bike (not just due to the 3speed gears) but just as enjoyable  (sometimes more so).    I wouldnt put clipless pedals on it as that would force me to use cycling shoes when using it.

[Kim]

I'm still a newcomer to them, but they ride a lot better than I thought, and climbing is fine.   Slower than a normal bike (not just due to the 3speed gears) but just as enjoyable  (sometimes more so).

As I probably said upthread, they may be inefficient, but the tight turning circle and quick acceleration makes small-wheeled bikes ideal for city riding.  I reckon it's great fun, as long as you're not trying to go particularly fast.

I wouldnt put clipless pedals on it as that would force me to use cycling shoes when using it.

The solution here it to fit quick-release pedals like Wellgo QRD or MKS EZY.  This means that you can have clipless pedals without compromising the fold (nobody, as far as I can determine, makes a folding clipless pedal) - you just remove the left pedal and stick it in your luggage when folding the bike - the QRD socket sticks out slightly less than the Brompton folding pedal does (I assume the EZY one is about the same size).  It also means you can easily choose between clipless and flat pedals according to what shoes you're wearing.

I use clipless pedals whenever practical because of knee problems, but it's handy to have the option of flats for short trips.  Obviously if you're happy with flats or never use the Brompton for longer rides this is less of an issue.

[rogerzilla]

It's worth adding that the braking is pretty impressive with the dual-pivot calipers they've been using for the last few years.  The oddball weight distribution actually helps here because you can brake very hard and the rear wheel probably won't lift.  For a little while in the early 2000s they had a dual pivot at the front and a single pivot at the rear, and that was just as good.  A slight irritation is that the brakes usually drag if the bars are turned much to the right, due to the cable routing and the fact that it's completely sheathed.  It's barely noticeable when riding but annoying when wheeling the bike out of the yard or shed.

[Kim]

It's worth adding that the braking is pretty impressive with the dual-pivot calipers they've been using for the last few years.

With KoolStops I'd describe it as adequate rather than impressive, though I'm used to disc and V brakes.  One advantage of small wheels is the rims clear faster in the wet.  I've done a damp double-chevron descent without splatty death, which should be more than enough braking for any sane Bromptoning.

The older models I've ridden have had braking that's decidedly underwhelming.  Not sure how much of that is down to the callipers or the levers.

The oddball weight distribution actually helps here because you can brake very hard and the rear wheel probably won't lift.

I can't lift the rear wheel at all, irrespective of weight on the front luggage block.  Your reach / grip strength / centre of mass may vary.

[Tewdric]

Roger you should try the H!  Stately and relaxed progress is the order of the day but the upright riding position, even for us lankies, really suits the Brommie concept.

[ian]

I am possibly a weakling, but I find that my Brompton seems to weigh more than even my mountain bike-flavoured commuter which I had previously assumed was forged out of the heart of a neutron star. One of my colleagues is thinking of getting one and I think she dislocated her shoulder trying to pick the Brompton up. I did pick up a titanium one when I was buying and it didn't seem that much different for the price. I have lighter bikes, not sure why the Brommie needs to be so heavy. The sort of thing you can manage, but it's no fun to carry up a few flights of stairs at the mothership.

Late to this show, but it's not a bad bike. You pay for the fold and label. I often ride mine the 20 miles or so home from the office on days when early starts or lassitude put me on the train, and it's no hassle. I once did 100+ km ramble around the great city and I can't say I'd want to go much further. I have a normal six speed that caters reasonably well enough and there's a couple of nasty hills. I do wish there was gear between 4 and 5 on the flat though, I find myself either spinning or grinding sometimes.  I can grunt up the 23% gradient to my front door, but that's only a fifty metres. The paintwork doesn't fair so well when you slam it under train tables. The front bag is jolly nice. You get to say 'jolly' if you ride a Brompton. It's a bike for jollying. It's nimble and I find the little comedy wheels not too bad on rough surfaces provided you avoid pot-holes. It doesn't fit in the boot of a old Ford Ka but doesn't complain as much as my wife if you put on the back seat. I'm never been impressed with the braking compared to v-brakes on my other bikes but I've failed to crash into anything yet. I probably should have got the harder suspension, it's a bit bouncy when you're frantically spinning and thinking there ought to be gear between 4 and 5. The gear levers are made out old plastic bottles, I find the one on the left that actuates the derailleur tends to flip when encountering potholes when can be a pain if you trying to go up a hill or accelerate. I tend to wedge my thumb under it but really, for a thousand quid bike, I shouldn't have to.

I have a twenty inch folder (Oyama, a Dahon-a-like from Taiwan, I think someone recommended one on here) which is, to be honest, actually a really nice ride, comparable I think to a full-sized bike – I commuted on it for quite a while when my usual bike was having bits replaced – at a quarter of the retail price for a Brommie but it doesn't fold as pretty or as tightly.

[rogerzilla]

It's heavy because a single main tube with a massively long seatpost, while necessary for the fold,  is not an optimally lightweight way to build a barely stiff enough bike and the steel used is basic hi-tensile stuff.  Also, anything with a Sturmey-Archer hub is about a pound heavier than an equivalent derailleur=geared bike, even an 11-speed rather than 2-speed derailleur.  Gear hubs are full of heat-treated steel bits.

Titanium option saves less than 1kg now the Ti seatpost has been discontinued so it's a super-expensive way to get the weight down.  If they used a better steel the weight could be reduced quite a bit through thinner gauge tubing but you'd be trading this for reduced corrosion life.  Bromptons usually get abused by commuting in all weathers and rust is a real concern.  A main frame with ultra-thin tubes might not last long, especially with the rubbish paint they use.  At least thick hi-ten tubing takes a long time to return to ore.

[Tigerrr]

I have 2 bromptons. I think the reason to buy a brom rather than a dahon or airnimal, or other, is fold size. It is designed for taking on the train with a very small fold. If you can fit anything slightly bigger in the car for days out on cycle paths with a bigger wheel - go for it. That would be my advice.
My brommies were bought for the narrowboat, where space is extremely limited - but they are a pain in the arse (literally) on towpaths, and have been relegated to the shed in favour of a Halfords 29er which rides like a dream.

[LEE]

The prices are shocking, but to make up for it (psychologically), the bike could last for the rest of your life*, and will hold its value well should you ever need to sell.

Or buy one 2nd-hand and you probably won't lose any money on it ...ever.