Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => Topic started by: bikepacker on 20 October, 2023, 01:08:33 pm
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Just had this message via bikebiz: https://bikebiz.com/wiggle-crc-to-enter-self-administration-according-to-reports
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It is because its parent company has decided not to fund it anymore.
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Hang on - Wiggle (and CRC, who appear to be the same thing now?) was chugging along at a loss the whole time? How does that work? They're not even an internet company!
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"In September, the company recorded pre-tax losses of £97,041,000"
How can a company the size of Wiggle lose that much in a year without money having been extracted in some way?
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"In September, the company recorded pre-tax losses of £97,041,000"
How can a company the size of Wiggle lose that much in a year without money having been extracted in some way?
I think that figure refers to Signa Sports United as a group of companies.
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Alongside Wiggle CRC, the Signa Sports United group includes Tennis-Point, Tennis Pro, Tennis Express, Fahrrad.de, Bikester, Probikeshop, Campz, Addnature and Outfitter. The company also owns the mountain bike brand Nukeproof and the road bike and gravel bike brand Vitus.
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It is because its parent company has decided not to fund it anymore.
A bit like Worcester Warriors Women whose funding had been promised for the next ten years in January by Cube International.
They pulled the plug on Tuesday. They say they'll pay the players and staff for the next couple of weeks (statement read Sept and Oct) and they'll refund our season tickets, but I won't hold my breath.
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Hang on - Wiggle (and CRC, who appear to be the same thing now?) was chugging along at a loss the whole time? How does that work?
Greed.
Big retail appears to be a big con. Companies borrow millions, generate no profit (but a select few get rich along the way) and then the debt gets bought up as part of another type of con.
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It's similar to the privatised water scam. Borrow loads of money, give it to shareholders and executives and then put up the bills to pay for the inevitable works required. As it is, in retail it's easier to simply let the administrators come in, restructure the debt or even go under and write off the debt and let others lose out whilst those at the top have gotten filthy rich and trot along to their next scam.
At least, that's my cynical socialist opinion ...
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You start to wonder if it's even possible to make money by making goods and providing services any more. Everything seems to be geared up for trading debt and owning houses.
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cf Wilkos.
Healthy company bought up and stripped.
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I hope the DHB clothing line continues somehow.
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It is because its parent company has decided not to fund it anymore.
A bit like Worcester Warriors Women whose funding had been promised for the next ten years in January by Cube International.
They pulled the plug on Tuesday. They say they'll pay the players and staff for the next couple of weeks (statement read Sept and Oct) and they'll refund our season tickets, but I won't hold my breath.
A quick "who are they" Google reveals that it's them wot the Manx Government are a tad pissed off with.
And other than their obvious financial problems and various screen scrapers of companies house, that's all I can find they did.
Can't imagine there would be enough profit in selling merch for the manx government, even if it is the TT.
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I hope the DHB clothing line continues somehow.
I'm wondering if I should stock up on their merino base layers (my favourites). How soon do you reckon stuff will become unavailable?
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cf Wilkos.
Healthy company bought up and stripped.
It was family-owned from beginning to end, although they took some funding from Hilco (the financiers with the reverse Midas touch) when they were on the skids.
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cf Wilkos.
Healthy company bought up and stripped.
It was family-owned from beginning to end, although they took some funding from Hilco (the financiers with the reverse Midas touch) when they were on the skids.
Only £77m of dividends, nothing serious.
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You start to wonder if it's even possible to make money by making goods and providing services any more. Everything seems to be geared up for trading debt and owning houses.
It's as if capitalism as we have hitherto known it no longer applies.
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You start to wonder if it's even possible to make money by making goods and providing services any more. Everything seems to be geared up for trading debt and owning houses.
It's as if capitalism as we have hitherto known it no longer applies.
Certainly not when it's a race to the bottom.
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So it's SJS, Spa Cycles and Tredz left to fill the gap, and Sigma Sports of course
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So it's SJS, Spa Cycles and Tredz left to fill the gap, and Sigma Sports of course
Tweeks and Merlin seem to be in the frame too?
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Has chain reaction gone bust as part of this? I just got an email about their black Friday deals...
Wiggle are still pushing and sales too...
J
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So it's SJS, Spa Cycles and Tredz left to fill the gap, and Sigma Sports of course
Tweeks and Merlin seem to be in the frame too?
Bike24.de
Discountbike.de
Mantel.nl
Bike-components.de
Futurumshop.nl
Plenty of places still going...
J
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Any expectation of when they may stop trading (based on prior similarities)?
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Just got the wiggle black Friday email too...
J
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So it's SJS, Spa Cycles and Tredz left to fill the gap, and Sigma Sports of course
Tweeks and Merlin seem to be in the frame too?
Bike24.de
Discountbike.de
Mantel.nl
Bike-components.de
Futurumshop.nl
Plenty of places still going...
J
Wiggle/CRC bought Bike24 in October 2017 and sold it back to the original owner in September 2019. The whole saga with Signa (NOT Sigma) seems to be a tangled web
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Any expectation of when they may stop trading (based on prior similarities)?
The administrators will keep it trading as long as they think it has value as an entity and there are potential buyers. They can do so for up to 12 months and extend that if creditors and courts agree. Realistically, any potential buyer will already be talking to the administrators and considering an offer. Evans went into Administration and was bought out by Sports Direct within about a month. I'd say it was unlikely for Wiggle to still be trading under administration in two months unless there was a serious offer being considered.
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These are cash-heavy businesses since you can't supply orders (and do so at least as quickly as your competitors) unless you keep substantial inventory, which broadly means you need upfront cash (obviously there are deals with manufacturers and supplies, but you need insurance to cover any shortfall). It seems the necessary liquidity was turned off at the holding company level. No liquidity, no stock, no insurance. Hence administration as they try to find funds.
I'm not really clear how just the two cycling retailers managed to post a £97 million loss. It seems their problems aren't new, post-acquisition by Signa, there was a ~£250 million goodwill impairment, which would suggest they substantially overvalued the business. Caveat emptor and all that. The online sales model is aggressively transactional as everyone shops around and buys the cheapest and quickest, so margins are thin at the best of times.
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So it's SJS, Spa Cycles and Tredz left to fill the gap, and Sigma Sports of course
Tweeks and Merlin seem to be in the frame too?
Bike24.de
Discountbike.de
Mantel.nl
Bike-components.de
Futurumshop.nl
Plenty of places still going...
J
Some of those no longer ship to the UK post Brexit.
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You do your research, you place your order.
"Out of Stock"
The modern conundrum in the race to the best price.
You then spend hours trawling through the internet trying to find what you wanted all along and pricing to a degree becomes secondary.
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You do your research, you place your order.
"Out of Stock"
The modern conundrum in the race to the best price.
You then spend hours trawling through the internet trying to find what you wanted all along and pricing to a degree becomes secondary.
Very much this, not best price, just is it in stock or not
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You do your research, you place your order.
"Out of Stock"
The modern conundrum in the race to the best price.
You then spend hours trawling through the internet trying to find what you wanted all along and pricing to a degree becomes secondary.
Very much this, not best price, just is it in stock or not
. . . coupled with checking out some of the outrageous delivery charges.
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It doesn't help that Google Shopping is, and has always been, crap. It does check for stock (yay!) but sometimes picks up prices excluding VAT, and very few retailers are on it.
I ignore Amazon results in search engines as the item is inevitably out of stock and they will try a bait-and-switch with some Chinesium shite instead.
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CRC seem to have upped their Marketing emails this weekend
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Probably for Black Friday deals :hand:
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Prices appear to be the same now as before the recent 'Black Friday' push, at least for the items I'd been looking at - they had the 30% off prior to this marketing. Who's going to buy a bike now, with the prospect of... everything imploding before delivery/ no aftersales - frame or parts guarantee?
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Probably for Black Friday deals :hand:
Yes.
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I googled a few cycling things today, Shimano chain, Castelli jacket etc, - no results at all for Wiggle or CR. All the items were in stock at both so I don't know how they stop Google bringing them up?
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I googled a few cycling things today, Shimano chain, Castelli jacket etc, - no results at all for Wiggle or CR. All the items were in stock at both so I don't know how they stop Google bringing them up?
I just had a look and it seems the the "sponsored links" at the top of Google (i.e. the paid-for ads) don't feature Wiggle/CRC but that further down the unpaid listings they do - makes sense to pull the ads which they would have to pay for (or even Google may have stopped them pending payment or uncertainty thereof?)
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The self administration failed and they're now in full administration:
https://www.globalcyclingnetwork.com/general/news/wiggle-chain-reaction-cycles-goes-into-administration
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Frasers Group having a sniff:
https://www.retailsector.co.uk/646832-frasers-mulls-rescue-of-wiggle-after-collapse/
(sorry, you have to subscribe to read the article but the headline should be enough for now ;))
ETA: more info here:
https://road.cc/content/news/frasers-group-reportedly-mulling-bid-wiggle-304757
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Anyone going to take a chance on ordering from them?
It is tempting to try to stock up on parts, but not spend too much.
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Anyone going to take a chance on ordering from them?
It is tempting to try to stock up on parts, but not spend too much.
I was wondering the same. There are a couple of their own brand things I really want but are showing at full price ATM (despite the Black Friday nonsense). Don't know whether to buy now or wait for a possible fire sale.
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Anyone going to take a chance on ordering from them?
It is tempting to try to stock up on parts, but not spend too much.
I was wondering the same. There are a couple of their own brand things I really want but are showing at full price ATM (despite the Black Friday nonsense). Don't know whether to buy now or wait for a possible fire sale.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/nov/04/brexit-lack-of-cash-politics-has-the-uk-cycling-revolution-run-out-of-road
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Bike24.de
Discountbike.de
Mantel.nl
Bike-components.de
Futurumshop.nl
Plenty of places still going...
J
No need to rub it in. I used to get most of my bike stuff from bike24 before brexit
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No need to rub it in. I used to get most of my bike stuff from bike24 before brexit
I wonder why it's the UK ones going bust...
J
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. . . and this is an interesting development given the very niche product offerings : https://www.pashley.co.uk/blogs/pashley/were-crowdfunding - raising funds for, mostly, R&D by the look of it.
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Anyone going to take a chance on ordering from them?
It is tempting to try to stock up on parts, but not spend too much.
I’ve become a Wiggle troll in recent years. Despite that, I took a punt last week and ordered three rims (20% off RRP). Everything was fine. Delivered free in good time. No Haribo, but I don’t care. That the order was over the limit for credit card protection was reassuring, just in case.
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Bike24.de
Discountbike.de
Mantel.nl
Bike-components.de
Futurumshop.nl
Plenty of places still going...
J
No need to rub it in. I used to get most of my bike stuff from bike24 before brexit
Interesting to note that some UK retailers that stopped exporting to Europe (or did so with sufficiently p&p to dissuade buyers, like SJS) have ironed out their problems and restarted. Niche markets, not mainline like CRC, but there are odd things that people like Spa have that are outrageously expensive or impossible to find in France.
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No need to rub it in. I used to get most of my bike stuff from bike24 before brexit
I wonder why it's the UK ones going bust...
J
Signa isn’t a UK company, it’s based in Berlin, and all its brands are in trouble. There is a UK element I’d course, the crash in cycle sales post-pandemic.
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If you buy from a company trading while in administration, the supply of goods is the responsibility of the administrator, if something goes wrong and you don't get the goods, they'll refund you for the error, you won't join the list of unsecured creditors. The supply part is more secure than if you'd bought the week before they went into administration. Warranty issues in the first year ought to be fairly straightforward, you by-pass the retailer and go to their supplier, or manufacturer. In theory, you have the same consumer rights, though obviously it isn't as easy to exercise them. I don't know how that works with own brand stuff, where effectively the retailer was the supplier. Warranties beyond the statutory is probably more complicated, I'm guessing it depends on who made the offer.
Buying liquidated stock is something different, I don't think you have any rights beyond it being as described. If it does head into liquidation, I'd expect some bargains from disappearing brands, less so for any other stock.
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. . . and this is an interesting development given the very niche product offerings : https://www.pashley.co.uk/blogs/pashley/were-crowdfunding - raising funds for, mostly, R&D by the look of it.
Interesting; no mention of Moulton Bicycles, which has been part of Pashley for over ten years. Moulton have re-acquired their original 1960s factory premises in Bradford on Avon and plan to move the production of their "cheaper" TSR models there from Pashley in Stratford on Avon. I wonder whether Moulton is going to split away from Pashley.
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Why isn't this a normal share issue? Is it because only the easily grifted would bite?
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No need to rub it in. I used to get most of my bike stuff from bike24 before brexit
I wonder why it's the UK ones going bust...
J
Signa isn’t a UK company, it’s based in Berlin, and all its brands are in trouble. There is a UK element I’d course, the crash in cycle sales post-pandemic.
Signa is mentioned in The Sunday Times today with woes about its financial position vis-a-vis its ownership/part ownership of Selfridges.
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Why isn't this a normal share issue? Is it because only the easily grifted would bite?
I would suggest that it's a lot to do with the massive fees etc that all the lawyers, banks and underwriters charge for share "flotations" even on the minor markets . . . and also the reason you suggest - together with enthusiastic cyclists likely to cough up.
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Why isn't this a normal share issue? Is it because only the easily grifted would bite?
It pretty much is, they're offering ordinary shares, they're not ringfenced to any product or project. The difference doing it this way, apart from the free publicity, is no shares are issued till all the investors are committed. The sale is dependent on that and Pashley remain in control up to that point, there's no market forces. Same as crowdfunding a product, if not enough people invest, the product doesn't get made and the money committed is returned. Plus, a private company is always going to struggle to widen it's shareholders compared to a public one and may be hampered by it's own constitution (Articles?)
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Wiggle parcel delivered this morning. All items present and correct.
I'm going to miss their dhb range. The £50 £20 shorts don't feel anything like the quality of the £50 shorts I had which have, after 10+ years largely. I guess I'm still adjusting to how prices for cycling paraphernailia have increased since I was last in the market. The shoes I've got some years ago are still going strong and the other bits that arrived today fit well and seem well stitched together.
Awfully tempted to buy one of their Vitus Sentier MTBs (https://www.wiggle.com/p/vitus-sentier-29-mountain-bike) for knocking around Cannock Chase but I keep reminding myself about next year's remortgaging.
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Well - the DHB item I had my eyes on has been reduced. Not sure if it's related to the administration but in any case I've got what I wanted at a decent price. Maybe it'll drop further & I'll get a spare!
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Halfords interested... https://news.sky.com/story/halfords-joins-ride-to-rescue-of-online-retailer-wiggle-13009513
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On my order confirmation email, the address at the foot reads
Wiggle Ltd (In Administration). 1000 Lakeside, Suite 310, Third Floor N E Wing, Portsmouth, Hampshire, PO6 3EN, United Kingdom
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Currently Wiggle (and Chain Reaction) have quite a few good deals, and a handful of ludicrously cheap deals. As times progresses, there's obviously an increasing risk that they may go totally bust and an order may not be delivered, but as others have said it's moderately likely that we would get our money back, in that scenario.
I've ordered a handful of very cheap items, between 50% and 70% off, a pair of shoes, shorts and tights, most of them dhb branded, but not entirely. Everything arrived quite rapidly and exactly as ordered. :thumbsup:
I then took an even deeper plunge, and ordered a Vitus e-bike at 40% off. The normal price was way beyond what I'd spend, but at that discount it was merely expensive. It's a very nice bike, and I'm very happy with it.
There are some very good deals to be had, but quite often you'll find clothes and bikes only have the cheap prices for the less desirable sizes, or those cheap offers are now out of stock, with the phrase "Stock expected soon", although I have my doubts about that!
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Whoops, just bought a Tacx Neo 2 for £649...
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Administrators have said that Wiggle owed Haribo £20k when they collapsed.
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zOMG! This could bring down Haribo! Then that has a knock-on effect on sugar-producing economies round the world – this could close the Tate Gallery!
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Not only the Tate gallery but also Tate and Lyle
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Currently Wiggle (and Chain Reaction) have quite a few good deals, and a handful of ludicrously cheap deals. As times progresses, there's obviously an increasing risk that they may go totally bust and an order may not be delivered, but as others have said it's moderately likely that we would get our money back, in that scenario.
I've ordered a handful of very cheap items, between 50% and 70% off, a pair of shoes, shorts and tights, most of them dhb branded, but not entirely. Everything arrived quite rapidly and exactly as ordered. :thumbsup:
I then took an even deeper plunge, and ordered a Vitus e-bike at 40% off. The normal price was way beyond what I'd spend, but at that discount it was merely expensive. It's a very nice bike, and I'm very happy with it.
There are some very good deals to be had, but quite often you'll find clothes and bikes only have the cheap prices for the less desirable sizes, or those cheap offers are now out of stock, with the phrase "Stock expected soon", although I have my doubts about that!
Ref your first paragraph - the appointed administrators have a legal obligation to manage the company such that a customer (for new orders), i.e. you, cannot lose money. If they can't supply, they wont accept the order and take your money.
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Just bought some fleece winter tights and some overshoes. £45, nil-postage.
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I previously bought a pair of dhb shoes for £15, which are apparently normally £85. They're down to £10 now, so I could have saved a further £5. ;D
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Thanks to this thread I had a look and bought myself some Endura bib shorts for £19.99 instead of £120. I look forward to trying them out!
(don't worry, there will be no photos)
Edit: that was quick! ordered Sunday and arrived Monday using standard postage. I might get some more, these are nice shorts.