Author Topic: Help with frame related questions  (Read 295142 times)

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #125 on: 15 December, 2011, 03:28:03 pm »
I was wondering if there's any way to tell whether the integrity of a frame has been compromised by internal rust. There's nothing obviously wrong with it from the outside, but there is some rust inside. It rings like a new frame if pinged. Reynolds 531c, a small Orbit frame. Pretty light rider, not used for over a year but stored indoors in a warm dry place.

Also, how easy is it to adjust the rear triangle? At some time in the past the rear stays have been spread to fit a wider hub (it was probably built for 5 speed, now had 7), but it's not straight. When viewed from behind, the back wheel is visibly off line. It doesn't seem to affect its handling, to my surprise. The rider has never noticed it. Is it best left as it is, or should I try to get it straight?
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #126 on: 15 December, 2011, 07:26:18 pm »
Also, how easy is it to adjust the rear triangle? At some time in the past the rear stays have been spread to fit a wider hub (it was probably built for 5 speed, now had 7), but it's not straight. When viewed from behind, the back wheel is visibly off line. It doesn't seem to affect its handling, to my surprise. The rider has never noticed it. Is it best left as it is, or should I try to get it straight?
Which side is the wheel biased to? Orbit were well known for frames built for neutral dished rear wheels, which meant the rear left and right stays were moved 4mm(? guessing) to the left.

Are there any disadvantages with this approach I wonder? Neutral wheel dishing would seem like a good idea.

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #127 on: 15 December, 2011, 08:06:43 pm »
I was wondering if there's any way to tell whether the integrity of a frame has been compromised by internal rust. There's nothing obviously wrong with it from the outside, but there is some rust inside. It rings like a new frame if pinged. Reynolds 531c, a small Orbit frame. Pretty light rider, not used for over a year but stored indoors in a warm dry place.

Also, how easy is it to adjust the rear triangle? At some time in the past the rear stays have been spread to fit a wider hub (it was probably built for 5 speed, now had 7), but it's not straight. When viewed from behind, the back wheel is visibly off line. It doesn't seem to affect its handling, to my surprise. The rider has never noticed it. Is it best left as it is, or should I try to get it straight?

You cant really tell without some pretty sophisticated kit. If the paint is blistering it is a fair indication that the tube is rusted through. If so, poke it with something sharp ie scriber or knife point to see if the metal is sound. If all appears well on the outside then give the inside of the tubes a blast with Waxoyl. This will not get rid of the rust but it will stop it getting any worse.

Regarding the back end, first check the wheel, with a dish gauge if you have access to one or by reversing it left to right if not. If the wheel is okay then check the dropout disposition using the string test ie piece of string from one dropout round the head tube to the other dropout. Measure the distance from string to seat tube on both sides. If the same then fine, if not then the frame is out of track. 531 frames should be easy to re track but if, as Crepello says some Orbit frames were built assymetrically then you are stuck with it and need to get the wheel re dished to fit.
I built several ATB frames this way in the 80's but most people do not grasp the concept and I got a couple of calls from subsequent buyers of the frames on the second hand market complaining about the poor building !!!!!!!!!

Cheers

Dave Yates
It's not just hitting it with a hammer but knowing where to hit it and how hard

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #128 on: 16 December, 2011, 12:51:07 pm »
Dave,

thanks very much.

There's no blistering at all. An experienced mechanic had a look at the bike this morning. Said one can't be sure when looking at an assembled bike, but he can't see anything wrong with the frame. It looks like rust around the bottom bracket & a little around the seatpost, & the tubes sound as if they're sound. How meaningful is that last bit?

What degree of disassembly is advisable before applying Waxoyl?

The advice for how to check the alignment is very useful. I hadn't thought of any of it.

Crepello: thanks.
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #129 on: 16 December, 2011, 03:20:13 pm »
...Orbit were well known for frames built for neutral dished rear wheels, which meant the rear left and right stays were moved 4mm(? guessing) to the left...

Having seen some early Orbits, including one being taking apart to replace a down tube, I suspect that their tolerances weren't much less than 4mm.

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #130 on: 16 December, 2011, 10:54:52 pm »
Quote
Having seen some early Orbits, including one being taking apart to replace a down tube, I suspect that their tolerances weren't much less than 4mm.

I could not possibly comment ;)

Dave Yates
It's not just hitting it with a hammer but knowing where to hit it and how hard

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #131 on: 18 December, 2011, 02:27:01 am »
Orbit were well known for frames built for neutral dished rear wheels, which meant the rear left and right stays were moved 4mm(? guessing) to the left right.
Are there any disadvantages with this approach I wonder? Neutral wheel dishing would seem like a good idea.
An undished rear wheel is stronger, but the disadvantage is that you can't just go out and buy one. You can't even be certain you can buy a normal dished wheel and remove the dish from it without fitting new spokes. I've been on 3 tours where someone has had to buy a new back wheel to carry on (2 dead hubs, 1 split rim), plus one that got pringled by the airline and had to be fixed up as well as possible without any spares available.

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #132 on: 18 December, 2011, 04:52:03 pm »
Quote
What degree of disassembly is advisable before applying Waxoyl?

Sorry, missed that. Seat pin out, Waxoyl down the seat tube, BB out spray it along the chainstays, down tube and bottom of the seat tube. Swing the frame about to slosh it around inside, let all the excess drain out, reassemble.

Quote
You can't even be certain you can buy a normal dished wheel and remove the dish from it without fitting new spokes.

Absolutely spot on. Rear wheels built rim centred over locknuts require spokes of different lengths ie block side usually 2 to 3mm shorter. If you try to re set the rim so it is centred over the flanges the block side spokes will be too short. Recipe for disaster
A dishless wheel is definitely stronger but a properly built wheel will handle all but really extreme situations. If that sort of situation is envisaged then use more spokes  ;)

Dave Yates
It's not just hitting it with a hammer but knowing where to hit it and how hard

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #133 on: 19 December, 2011, 06:52:08 pm »
Orbit were well known for frames built for neutral dished rear wheels, which meant the rear left and right stays were moved 4mm(? guessing) to the left right.
Are there any disadvantages with this approach I wonder? Neutral wheel dishing would seem like a good idea.
Ah, YFTFM :thumbsup:

In which case, another issue might be chainline and issues with the front mech moving out further to accommodate it.



Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #134 on: 20 December, 2011, 06:27:05 pm »
Hi everyone - just found this site whilst trying to research 'Geoffrey Butler'.

Been reading this very interesting and valuable thread (facts, courtesy of someone who really knows what he's talking about, rather than the hot air, poorly-based opinions and bigotry that seems to fuel so many other internet discussions) and I thought I'd register to enable me to chip in my twopenn'orth (and if the quality of this thread is typical of the site in general I can see myself becoming quite a regular reader).

Anyway, with regard to Dave's Waxoyl recommendations (which I heartily endorse, having used the stuff successfully on many vehicles over many years) I would also urge anyone dealing with a rusting frame to, first of all, kill/convert the rust before applying the wax, and the best way of doing this, in my experience, is to use a product called 'Bilt-Hamber deox-C'. This is a non-acidic 'organic' product that you mix with water before immersing the rusty item for at least 24 hours. It has an almost magical effect, converting all the rust into a grey metallic finish. After a good soaking, you rinse it off with clean water, dry it immediately (hair-dryer, fan-heater etc) then, also immediately, you apply whatever coating is appropriate to the job in hand - in this case, a good sousing of Waxoyl as described above by Dave.

One of the great benefits of the Bilt-Hamber method is that, as the whole work piece (bike frame in this instance) is immersed, all otherwise inaccessible rusted areas get the treatment too (you obviously need a large enough vat or dish to get a frame and forks in - in my case I knocked up a frame-shaped structure out of old timber (a sort of six-inch high fence surrounding the laid-on-its-side frame, which I then converted into an immersion chamber by laying a large piece of thick polythene sheet (from the garden centre) over the wooden framework, then laying the bike frame on top of the polythene so that the weight of the frame pushed it down inside the woodwork, enabling me to fill the whole lot with the Bilt-Hamber fluid. Knowing that I was going to leave it to soak for a couple of days, I also covered the top with more polythene so as to minimise/prevent loss of fluid by evaporation.  Amazingly, when you've finished de-rusting the frame, you can decant the fluid into storage cans and use it again later for further de-rusting jobs. I should add that, other than having discovered this product (via a classic car mag recommendation some years ago) and tried it myself, I have no connections whatsoever with Bilt-Hamber (a German outfit, I understand) or any of their dealers, agents or any other interested parties.

eck

  • Gonna ride my bike until I get home...
    • Angus Bike Chain CC
Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #135 on: 29 December, 2011, 02:58:22 pm »
I'm planning to touch up (and no sniggering at the back  ::-) ) a fairly tatty second hand Ribble alu frame, and would be grateful for any advice on what preparation I should do.
It's down to bare metal in a few places, each side of the head tube and round the BB especially, and in some places paint is peeling off where it has been touched up in the past.
I've some Humbrol enamel from a previous bike that's a good-enough match, and I know I'll need to sand down the edges etc, but what about primer etc?
The bike is my "worst weather" winter bike, I'm less concerned about aesthetics than just keeping it sound.
TIA.
It's a bit weird, but actually quite wonderful.

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #136 on: 29 December, 2011, 03:00:23 pm »
Its aluminium. Just give it a wash now and then
<i>Marmite slave</i>

eck

  • Gonna ride my bike until I get home...
    • Angus Bike Chain CC
Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #137 on: 29 December, 2011, 03:02:10 pm »
Its aluminium. Just give it a wash now and then
  ???
That's more often that it usually gets washed.  :)
It's a bit weird, but actually quite wonderful.

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #138 on: 30 December, 2011, 07:24:29 am »
I'm planning to touch up (and no sniggering at the back  ::-) ) a fairly tatty second hand Ribble alu frame, and would be grateful for any advice on what preparation I should do.
It's down to bare metal in a few places, each side of the head tube and round the BB especially, and in some places paint is peeling off where it has been touched up in the past.
I've some Humbrol enamel from a previous bike that's a good-enough match, and I know I'll need to sand down the edges etc, but what about primer etc?
The bike is my "worst weather" winter bike, I'm less concerned about aesthetics than just keeping it sound.
TIA.

Eck

The trick is to key the surface with something like 240 grit wet and dry to give the Humbrol something to grip. This will last for a couple of years and when it needs another touch up its only a few minutes job. There may be a primer for ally  but it is probably not worth bothering with for this sort of job. Ally really needs an acid etch primer but this is not generally available to the "public". The stuff I use is a two pack industrial concoction designed specifically for the job. It has a "Defstan" rating several lines long and the MOD use it for painting Tornados and the like. Sticks like ---- to a blanket.

Dave Yates
It's not just hitting it with a hammer but knowing where to hit it and how hard

eck

  • Gonna ride my bike until I get home...
    • Angus Bike Chain CC
Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #139 on: 30 December, 2011, 08:59:29 pm »
Dave,
Many thanks for your helpful reply. The original frame is a bright lemony yellow, the Humbrol enamel is more like custard.  :facepalm: Never mind, another coat tomorrow and it will be better than it was.

BTW, the bestest paint job I ever had is on the 653 Joe Waugh  you guys built for me in late 1996, when you were still at the old Wallsend place. There's hardly a mark on it, and it's still very much my favourite bike after all those years.  :)
(The glow at the back wheel isn't the warm Scottish afternoon sun, it's from the halogen heater trying to keep the garage above freezing)

It's a bit weird, but actually quite wonderful.

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #140 on: 21 January, 2012, 08:19:22 pm »
A little general question. Is it still possible to find tubing in french dimensions? It's for a frame that has no conceivable value or merit (other than it would appear to be 1930's, is not a race frame or a classy build and has Super Champion fork-ends -and the gearchange that goes with it). I have measured the damaged tubes (down tube and top tube) and they appear to correspond with the dimensions in a 1980's Ishiwata catalogue for french tubing, 28.0mm and 26.0mm (on bare tubes).
A second question. How easy/complicated is it to replace tubes if the lugs are pinned? Judging by the extremely crude nature of the lugs I would assume that they are pinned.

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #141 on: 26 January, 2012, 07:28:34 am »
A little general question. Is it still possible to find tubing in french dimensions? It's for a frame that has no conceivable value or merit (other than it would appear to be 1930's, is not a race frame or a classy build and has Super Champion fork-ends -and the gearchange that goes with it). I have measured the damaged tubes (down tube and top tube) and they appear to correspond with the dimensions in a 1980's Ishiwata catalogue for french tubing, 28.0mm and 26.0mm (on bare tubes).
A second question. How easy/complicated is it to replace tubes if the lugs are pinned? Judging by the extremely crude nature of the lugs I would assume that they are pinned.

Sorry about the delay, had computer problems, the mouse died and I have no idea how to use the keyboard in this situation  ::-)
The tubes you describe are indeed French metric standard. Down and seat tubes 28mm and top tube 26mm. AFAIK the only metric tube generally available in the UK was the original 753 which was produced only in metric for the first couple of years because only the French and Portugese were interested in it. Reynolds have never had the tubes available on "general release" unless for a minimum order of 500 pieces. I actually have a couple of metric tubes somewhere, cant remember what or where but if you are desparate I can have a look.
Pinned lugs can be a bit of a b----r to dismantle. I usually try to find the pins then drill them out first. The other technique I have used is to heat the lug joint up to dismantling temp, then quickly punch the pin out with a thin pin punch. This is really a four handed job, someone to hold the torch and someone to do the punching. Not for the faint hearted and usually employed when the pin is discovered in the process of dismantling.
What is the damage to your frame? It may be possible to repair without taking the tube out. Replacing a tube is a fairly savage process and one I usually only use as a last resort.

Cheers

Dave Yates
It's not just hitting it with a hammer but knowing where to hit it and how hard

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #142 on: 27 January, 2012, 04:06:23 pm »
Reynolds 753 is much too good; steel central heating pipe would be closer! I was actually hoping you could tell me if Columbus did Gara in french dimensions (since they seem to do that in all sorts of sizes and lengths not necessarily frame set related).
Here are a couple of pictures. The bike is now stripped (except the cranks!) but I haven't yet taken a pic of the damage to the down tube. The crease is actually somewhere behind the gearlever quadrant; your experienced eye can probably see how far it is bent. The top tube has a couple of good ripples.
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/9723/100b6067.jpg
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/9591/100b6070.jpg

The thing with this bike is that it has no conceivable value other than that a utilitarian randonneuse built with a Super Champion gear is not common and that it is family in that it used to belong to my wife's uncle. I had thought it destined for the scrap metal skip but before I dump it I would like to make sure that I am not missing something. To complete the picture, it was fitted with 700B wheels (for which Endrick rims are about as common as rocking horse droppings) and that steel drop bar is actually 30cm wide and must be excruciatingly uncomfortable (and it is about 3cm too small for me).

iddu

  • Are we there yet?
Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #143 on: 27 January, 2012, 04:43:43 pm »
A little general question. Is it still possible to find tubing in french dimensions?

Himself probably knows already, but FYI: http://www.ceeway.com/Gara.htm
I'd offer you some moral support - but I have questionable morals.

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #144 on: 27 January, 2012, 06:45:23 pm »
I have also delved into the site of Ceeway a lot, not just for this, but they tend only to reference in english sizes, I suppose because they handle tubes to correspond with the lugs in their catalogue.
This is really a question for a french frame builder, I know, but our local frame builder has much the same character as Major Nicholls, although without perhaps the same level of skills, so I am a bit scared to even trouble him.

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #145 on: 27 January, 2012, 11:31:12 pm »
Quote
Himself probably knows already, but FYI: http://www.ceeway.com/Gara.htm

The tubes in the link are actually imperial although shown as mm. 25.4mm = 1", 28.6mm = 1 1/8". The difference between French and British standards is only .6mm in each case but that is the difference between "fit" and "not fit". The top tube will not go into the lug and the down tube will rattle around in the lug.

I understand the reasoning behind wanting to restore the bike. I have done lots of such jobs over the years where the frame is worthless to all but the family member who wants to resurrect it. I recently did a Flying Scot that had belonged to the customer's Grandfather then Father. It was in a sorry state but worth spending some time doing for the sheer sentimental value. I could attempt to source some tubes but the job would be expensive, rough estimate in excess of £300  :o

Cheers

Dave Yates
It's not just hitting it with a hammer but knowing where to hit it and how hard

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #146 on: 27 January, 2012, 11:56:19 pm »
Dave - Jig-built versus free-built? 

I noticed someone posted a piccy of a frame under construction  from a well-known Yorkshire builder recently very firmly arranged in a jig. 

Their main competitor in the same Yorkshire city claims that free-built makes for a springier and happier frame. 

Is there anything in it?

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #147 on: 28 January, 2012, 07:44:39 am »
Dave - Jig-built versus free-built? 

I noticed someone posted a piccy of a frame under construction  from a well-known Yorkshire builder recently very firmly arranged in a jig. 

Their main competitor in the same Yorkshire city claims that free-built makes for a springier and happier frame. 

Is there anything in it?

One of the first things I say to people on my courses is that there are as many different ways of building frames as there are framebuilders. My opinion is that it depends entirely on the builders skill level and experience. Strictly speaking it is a "fixture" rather than a "jig" but I am being a bit pedantic here, the term "jig" is in general usage in the framebuilding world so jig it is  ::-).
The purpose of any jig or fixture in engineering is to reduce the number of variables in an operation and to a certain extent "de skill" the operation. In the case of, say, a drilling jig the work piece is clamped into the jig and the jig is clamped to the drilling machine table. The drill is guided by a hardened steel bush built into the jig. All the operator has to do is load the workpiece into the jig drill the hole then repeat with the next piece ad nauseum !! Virtually no skill at all is required to operate but lots of skill in the design and manufacture of the jig. Some of the commercial frame jigs eg Bike Machinery and Marchetti Lange use clamps on the tube diameter operated by a pneumatic cylinder. These are fine for mass producing El Cheapo frames but an absolute no no for anything remotely decent.
I have always built with a jig of my own manufacture developed from a design used by a framebuilder called Mike Mullet in the 70s. In it, none of the tubes are clamped rigidly. I developed a build sequence that allows movement during the brazing process. Any piece of metal when heated expands. The "free build" exponents claim that this method allows the frame to move with the heat so no stresses are locked into the structure. My contention is that if the jig is designed well with this in mind the frame can move but is held in line during brazing. However it depends entirely on the skill of the builder. The more experienced builders have developed a system that works for them so as long as the frame fits the rider, tracks in a straight line, fits the purpose it was designed for and remains in one piece it matters not a jot how it is put together IMHO.
Sorry thats a bit long, I could probably write a book on the subject but I have to go and feed the chickens  ;D

Cheers

Dave Yates
It's not just hitting it with a hammer but knowing where to hit it and how hard

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #148 on: 28 January, 2012, 11:01:02 pm »
Quote
I noticed someone posted a piccy of a frame under construction  from a well-known Yorkshire builder recently very firmly arranged in a jig

Tewdric

Do you have a link for this pic? I am always interested in how others do it  :o

Dave Yates
It's not just hitting it with a hammer but knowing where to hit it and how hard

border-rider

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #149 on: 28 January, 2012, 11:14:44 pm »