Author Topic: European Super League  (Read 2894 times)

fd3

European Super League
« on: 18 April, 2021, 10:43:53 pm »
No, not the world famous RL competition, but a plan for the top European 11-a-side teams to split off and form a closed shop competition.
Much rage:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56794673
What I don't get is
 - why clubs shouldn't be allowed to choose to move to a different league if they want to, why should they be legally prevented?
 - how can UEFA say they will stop players playing for a national team?  How can they say that player X plays in the wrong league and therefore can't play for their country?
 - why is everyone so piss-scared of a league with no Promotion/Relegation?  P/R is an alien concept in many countries (Oz/US) and doesn't work for many sports in this country (Rugby of either code).
 - why would the ESL clubs want to do this?  Sure, it's stupid for the top 6 sides in the UK to play against a swathe of teams who are far below their level, but to change to play only against teams that can beat them?  Surely Manchester (City/United) are better off doing well in their domestic comp and medium in the champions league than to do medium/poorly in the ESL.
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Re: European Super League
« Reply #1 on: 18 April, 2021, 11:08:55 pm »
Because, at the moment, they run/own football and its participants (don't forget it's the UEFA Champions League, the UEFA World Cup and so on).  It's a not very well disguised form of slavery known as restriction of trade.  I've realised I don't actually care very much, any more.

Pingu

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Re: European Super League
« Reply #2 on: 18 April, 2021, 11:12:46 pm »
Money.

Mr Larrington

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Re: European Super League
« Reply #3 on: 19 April, 2021, 01:11:48 am »
Because, at the moment, they run/own football and its participants (don't forget it's the UEFA Champions League, the UEFA World Cup and so on).  It's a not very well disguised form of slavery known as restriction of trade.  I've realised I don't actually care very much, any more.

Up to a point, Lord Copper.  The World Cup is FIFA's, er, ball-game.
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FifeingEejit

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Re: European Super League
« Reply #4 on: 19 April, 2021, 02:59:21 am »
Association football is FIFA and IFABs ball game.

I'm sure there was a footballer playing in Scotland a few years back who got a ban for playing in a GAA football match.

Will be interesting to see how this pans out, must remember that the Europa League started out as a non UEFA competition called the inter-City fairs Cup for the purpose of gambling.

It's more likely a power play for further bias in the champions league structure than something they expect to come to fruition.

If it back fires on them they need to somehow find players willing to never play FIFA sanctioned football ever again, match officials  etc.

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citoyen

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Re: European Super League
« Reply #5 on: 19 April, 2021, 06:29:13 am »
It's more likely a power play for further bias in the champions league structure than something they expect to come to fruition.

This.

It’s also a reaction to UEFA’s plans to expand the champions league format to increase the number of games - these teams want fewer games and more money for playing them, as well as more control over their media rights.

UEFA and FIFA are massively corrupt organisations. As a friend observed elsewhere, it takes some doing to cede the moral high ground to them.
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Jaded

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Re: European Super League
« Reply #6 on: 19 April, 2021, 06:32:39 am »
It further enhances the gap between the Haves and the Have-nots. The rich get richer and the others don't.

Watching your ordinary team in Europe used to be quite something. Now you'll be able to not watch them. Or watch them in a minor competition.
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Re: European Super League
« Reply #7 on: 19 April, 2021, 07:09:07 am »
It's like the English Premier League - that was also a breakaway in the search for more money, which has ruined the wider game.
And Darkness and Decay and the Coronavirus held illimitable dominion over all.

Re: European Super League
« Reply #8 on: 19 April, 2021, 07:44:39 am »

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: European Super League
« Reply #9 on: 19 April, 2021, 08:23:09 am »
Gaelic Athletic Association.

My probably inaccurate feeling is that it will end up with a deal giving a larger percentage of TV and other money to the "big 12", with the threat of the ESL hanging there in the background to be triggered again whenever they want a larger slice.
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Cudzoziemiec

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Re: European Super League
« Reply #10 on: 19 April, 2021, 08:27:33 am »
But if it does go ahead, it will give the smaller (or less big) clubs in those national leagues chances they haven't had for a few decades. Leicester winning the league might not seem like a fluke anymore, or Aston Villa the Champions League. And if FIFA bans players who take part in it, that effect might be felt at international level.
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Jaded

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Re: European Super League
« Reply #11 on: 19 April, 2021, 08:32:27 am »
I read that the teams will carry on in their own leagues.

It's the Champions League competition that will suffer.
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

T42

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Re: European Super League
« Reply #12 on: 19 April, 2021, 08:34:30 am »
The first 4 stories on France Info's web site were about this shit. Jesus wept.
I've dusted all those old bottles and set them up straight.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: European Super League
« Reply #13 on: 19 April, 2021, 08:39:54 am »
I read that the teams will carry on in their own leagues.

It's the Champions League competition that will suffer.
I read that they've said they want to carry on in domestic leagues and CL, but UEFA is saying no. Given they also claim pressure on schedules as a factor in wanting this new league, it doesn't quite add up.
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: European Super League
« Reply #14 on: 19 April, 2021, 08:40:16 am »
The first 4 stories on France Info's web site were about this shit. Jesus wept.
Just wait till PSG sign up!
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

mcshroom

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Re: European Super League
« Reply #15 on: 19 April, 2021, 08:41:20 am »
No, not the world famous RL competition, but a plan for the top European 11-a-side teams to split off and form a closed shop competition.
Much rage:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56794673
What I don't get is
 - why clubs shouldn't be allowed to choose to move to a different league if they want to, why should they be legally prevented?
 - how can UEFA say they will stop players playing for a national team?  How can they say that player X plays in the wrong league and therefore can't play for their country?
It's a bit like when Packer's cricket teams split off. UEFA/FIFA couldn't stop anyone playing in another league, but as the natinal sides play in FIFA/UEFA competitions, then those bodies are entitled to state the entry criteria for their competitions.
Quote
- why is everyone so piss-scared of a league with no Promotion/Relegation?  P/R is an alien concept in many countries (Oz/US) and doesn't work for many sports in this country (Rugby of either code).

This is plainly false for Rugby Union. The top two sides this season were Bristol and Exeter. Both teams that have been promoted in recent years. Newcastle and Worcester are other teams that have come up from lower divisions, so a third of the Premiership have been promoted into it.

This is despite the rules being set up in such a way as to try and stop the promoted teams doing well. I remember when my team (Rotherham) got promoted, we had to meet a range of ground criteria that existing clubs such as Bath didn't have to, got less TV money for playing in the Premiership than Harlequins got for playing in National One that year, and had to wait well after the season finished before we were confirmed as promoted, so after most player transfers had occurred. As it was, we got smashed for a season and then went down, which wasn't great, but at least we have played Premiership Rugby.

Removing promotion and relegation just entrenches the haves and have-nots in a sport. In Rugby Union, that would have been that the whole of the North of England was represented by Sale, for example. In RL, it would have also cemented teams with a rich History such as Halifax and Widnes out of the Super League, and made it pretty much impossible for the sport to spread out of a narrow band of England based mainly around the M62.

There may be a case if you went to regional teams like the Irish in the Pro 14, but just using existing big clubs entrenched privilege

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Cudzoziemiec

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Re: European Super League
« Reply #16 on: 19 April, 2021, 08:46:19 am »
Removing promotion and relegation just entrenches the haves and have-nots in a sport.
This. Which raises an interesting possibility if ESL goes ahead and its members remain in their domestic leagues. It will look a bit odd if one or more of them slips out of the top group, let alone top league, nationally, but if we look at some of the members, such as Liverpool or Chelsea, history suggests this is quite likely.
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FifeingEejit

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Re: European Super League
« Reply #17 on: 19 April, 2021, 08:49:12 am »
It's like the English Premier League - that was also a breakaway in the search for more money, which has ruined the wider game.
The difference with the Premier league was they had the FA on side.



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Re: European Super League
« Reply #18 on: 19 April, 2021, 09:39:02 am »
It's like the English Premier League - that was also a breakaway in the search for more money, which has ruined the wider game.
The difference with the Premier league was they had the FA on side.
Yes, because the FA were at war with The Football League. The FA ran the FA Cup and the England team, and the Football League ran the rest (which is where the money was). So the Premier League came up, and the FA stuck the boot into the Football League and took what they viewed as their rightful place at the top of the game in control of all the money.

For the Premier League 6, it's all about ensuring a place in the Champions League, and the money that comes with it. The "race for the top 4" is great for the Premier League, but for the owners, not knowing how much income to expect the next year (+/- £100m) is a huge problem. You could argue that they need to cut their cloth accordingly, and treat the CL money as "bonus" money, but if you work on that basis you can't compete with the top teams in Europe who have their Champions League places sewn up.
For the others, it's about controlling the cash that the Champions League generates - currently how much money you get depends on the size of your TV deal, so Premier League clubs often get more CL  money than teams that go further in the competition.
For all of them, it's a chance to stick 2 fingers up at FIFA/UEFA, who they regard as incompetent and corrupt.

T42

  • *** fool in a hurry
Re: European Super League
« Reply #19 on: 19 April, 2021, 10:34:47 am »
The first 4 stories on France Info's web site were about this shit. Jesus wept.
Just wait till PSG sign up!

Aye, the plebs will really get excited then.  I'll try to ignore them.
I've dusted all those old bottles and set them up straight.

fd3

Re: European Super League
« Reply #20 on: 19 April, 2021, 10:43:02 am »
Quote
- why is everyone so piss-scared of a league with no Promotion/Relegation?  P/R is an alien concept in many countries (Oz/US) and doesn't work for many sports in this country (Rugby of either code).

This is plainly false for Rugby Union. ... I remember when my team (Rotherham) got promoted, we had to meet a range of ground criteria that existing clubs such as Bath didn't have to, got less TV money for playing in the Premiership than Harlequins got for playing in National One that year, and had to wait well after the season finished before we were confirmed as promoted, so after most player transfers had occurred. As it was, we got smashed for a season and then went down, which wasn't great, but at least we have played Premiership Rugby.

Removing promotion and relegation just entrenches the haves and have-nots in a sport. In Rugby Union, that would have been that the whole of the North of England was represented by Sale, for example. In RL, it would have also cemented teams with a rich History such as Halifax and Widnes out of the Super League, and made it pretty much impossible for the sport to spread out of a narrow band of England based mainly around the M62.

I would say your examples of successful promotion in RU is the exception rather than the rule and is due to moneybags buying the team promotion, not plucky underdogs winning against the odds.  Your example of Rotheram is more of the norm and it's worse in RL - I remember the last time Leigh got promoted I don't think they won a match all year.
I don't see how P/R has done a great job of growing RL outside of the heartlands, in fact Catalans would not be in the top tier if P/R rules had applied to them and P/R lost us London.

There's no reason why you can't have franchised P/R based on a three year aggregate of scores and financial packages/support.  That's what they do in the NRL and they did this in the SL for a bit.  It means that Rotheram don't have to play the year with the scraps of talent left over and then get relegated, they can have a three year plan towards gaining promotion.

I also think that franchised P/R is better for the lower level competition, because the winners of that comp are clearly winning at the highest level available.
Strange things are afoot at the circle K.

fd3

Re: European Super League
« Reply #21 on: 19 April, 2021, 10:55:32 am »
Quote
The European Super League will have 20 participating clubs - 15 founding ones with five other clubs qualifying each season.

The clubs will play in a new midweek competition with teams continuing to compete in their respective national leagues, the ESL was keen to stress.

So, it's a different take on the Champion's league basically?
Strange things are afoot at the circle K.

Jaded

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Re: European Super League
« Reply #22 on: 19 April, 2021, 10:57:09 am »
Sounds like Mourinho has taken a stand against the ESL. And got sacked.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56799400
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Re: European Super League
« Reply #23 on: 19 April, 2021, 11:00:42 am »
Yes there are sporting leagues that operate without promotion and relegation, however they do operate strict salary caps for the whole clubs wage bill and they operate a draft style recruitment system where the worst teams get to pick the best of the new prospects so they improve more.

Firstly I can't see these teams operating to a salary cap, and if they do it will not be anywhere near low enough to allow the other teams in their national league to compete against them. Secondly how do you run a draft system for 12 clubs in a global sport where they are competing in their national leagues? It's not like giving the twelfth of these at the end of the season first pick is possible unless junior players are going to have release clauses from whichever clubs they are playing for to allow them to 'declare' for the draft, at which point national leagues are little more than college football.

If they want to go ahead with their midweek league then I suspect the clubs should be punished with immediate points reductions, shall we say 10 points for each unsanctioned game played? Also how are they going to fit these extra games into the calendar given all the concerns about player burn out and the need for a winter break to allow the national sides to be better in summer tournaments?

Mr Larrington

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Re: European Super League
« Reply #24 on: 19 April, 2021, 11:05:29 am »
Sounds like Mourinho has taken a stand against the ESL. And got sacked.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56799400

Quote
Spurs face Manchester City in the Carabao Cup final on Sunday.

In the what?  When I was a small Mr Larrington a carabao was a water buffalo ???

(Googles)

Ah.  Apparently it’s what the League Cup is called these days.
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