Author Topic: The Flatish ACME Grand 01/09/2022  (Read 3287 times)

Re: The Flatish ACME Grand 01/09/2022
« Reply #25 on: 31 July, 2022, 03:38:56 pm »
t on the day and catch the first train. The Trains from Reading to London Paddington I have to book on GWR.

BB
booking not required on Elizabeth line, but GWR intercity may be faster

also i have NEVER had my booking checked on GWR intercity trains, although I hear this is not the experience of people who try to board at paddington

Eddington  109miles

Bianchi Boy

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Re: The Flatish ACME Grand 01/09/2022
« Reply #26 on: 31 July, 2022, 04:11:40 pm »
t on the day and catch the first train. The Trains from Reading to London Paddington I have to book on GWR.

BB
booking not required on Elizabeth line, but GWR intercity may be faster

also i have NEVER had my booking checked on GWR intercity trains, although I hear this is not the experience of people who try to board at paddington
I ended up getting someone taken off a GWR without a bike reservation. I had a reservation and the other people did not. Neither of them. I blocked the door because I had a reservation. With so few bike spaces on trains this sad situation will only get more common.

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Bianchi Boy

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Re: The Flatish ACME Grand 01/09/2022
« Reply #27 on: 31 July, 2022, 04:19:05 pm »
t on the day and catch the first train. The Trains from Reading to London Paddington I have to book on GWR.

BB
booking not required on Elizabeth line, but GWR intercity may be faster

also i have NEVER had my booking checked on GWR intercity trains, although I hear this is not the experience of people who try to board at paddington
I have always gone to Paddington and cycled across London to the station I need. The Elizabeth Line give me the option of catching a train to Liverpool Street

As for speed. The GWR is 25 minutes to Paddington, Elizabeth Line about an hour.

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FifeingEejit

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Re: The Flatish ACME Grand 01/09/2022
« Reply #28 on: 31 July, 2022, 06:24:58 pm »
hm, Pocklington 2nd/3rd certainly makes sense, nearly booked the yorkway at 95 quid then spotted check in is by 2000, bit early for me.
Might just need to chance it...

Re: The Flatish ACME Grand 01/09/2022
« Reply #29 on: 31 July, 2022, 07:42:39 pm »
hm, Pocklington 2nd/3rd certainly makes sense, nearly booked the yorkway at 95 quid then spotted check in is by 2000, bit early for me.
Might just need to chance it...

I’m working off a moving average of 20kph, getting there night 2 at 5/6pm.   Long rest and maybe push straight through to the (almost) finish.  Pop down for breakfast mid-morning.

I think LAL has taken the edge off me, though.   I am still quite jaded.

Bianchi Boy

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Re: The Flatish ACME Grand 01/09/2022
« Reply #30 on: 03 August, 2022, 05:25:22 pm »
I have booked Retford TL for the first nights sleep.

Will intermediate control times be enforced? If so I will have to be in Retford by 6:21am and will not get a lie in  :'(

BB
Set a fire for a man and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

Re: The Flatish ACME Grand 01/09/2022
« Reply #31 on: 03 August, 2022, 08:07:54 pm »
I have booked Retford TL for the first nights sleep.

Will intermediate control times be enforced? If so I will have to be in Retford by 6:21am and will not get a lie in  :'(

BB

I haven’t looked where the TL is but can’t you pick up your receipt before you turn in for the night ?

I tend to do this even if it’s extra miles as I don’t trust myself to remember in the morning.

Bianchi Boy

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Re: The Flatish ACME Grand 01/09/2022
« Reply #32 on: 03 August, 2022, 09:16:53 pm »
I have booked Retford TL for the first nights sleep.

Will intermediate control times be enforced? If so I will have to be in Retford by 6:21am and will not get a lie in  :'(

BB

I haven’t looked where the TL is but can’t you pick up your receipt before you turn in for the night ?

I tend to do this even if it’s extra miles as I don’t trust myself to remember in the morning.

The TL is about 8km south of the control town of Retford ..... I would have to leave at about 5:40 to make sure and get a valid control. Not the worst thing, but I would have liked a lie in....

BB
Set a fire for a man and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

Re: The Flatish ACME Grand 01/09/2022
« Reply #33 on: 04 August, 2022, 11:08:57 am »
I have booked Retford TL for the first nights sleep.

Will intermediate control times be enforced? If so I will have to be in Retford by 6:21am and will not get a lie in  :'(

BB

I haven’t looked where the TL is but can’t you pick up your receipt before you turn in for the night ?

I tend to do this even if it’s extra miles as I don’t trust myself to remember in the morning.

The TL is about 8km south of the control town of Retford ..... I would have to leave at about 5:40 to make sure and get a valid control. Not the worst thing, but I would have liked a lie in....

BB
My understanding is that a single unmanned control out of time is not a reason not to be validated, as per ACP rules.

8km extra there and back, probably equates to 40-45minutes lost sleep

Of course the shop you use in Retford could easily have a badly set clock on their till, if you get there at 06:20, but mysteriously the time stamp is 08:00 (for example)

Eddington  109miles

Re: The Flatish ACME Grand 01/09/2022
« Reply #34 on: 04 August, 2022, 01:19:38 pm »
Seriously considering this now and using the Dutch trip as recovery...

Will depend on hotel prices and family stuff but I've earmarked it in the calendar.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: The Flatish ACME Grand 01/09/2022
« Reply #35 on: 04 August, 2022, 01:31:42 pm »

My understanding is that a single unmanned control out of time is not a reason not to be validated, as per ACP rules.


Where in the ACP rules is that understanding stated or implied?
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: The Flatish ACME Grand 01/09/2022
« Reply #36 on: 04 August, 2022, 02:22:38 pm »

My understanding is that a single unmanned control out of time is not a reason not to be validated, as per ACP rules.


Where in the ACP rules is that understanding stated or implied?

My understanding is that a single unmanned control out of time is not a reason not to be validated, as per ACP rules.


Where in the ACP rules is that understanding stated or implied?

If I knew where it was stated I would have quoted it. This is essentially hearsay. But can you point to anything in the rules to say a brevet can't be validated due to intermediate control proof being outside of limits?

I can find nothing in the regulations that states a rider will be considered to have failed for missing any intermediate closing times. from the regs https://audax.uk/media/2063/acp-rules-for-brm-organisers_en.pdf
Quote
At the finish :
• The organizer must verify that each card has the following:
o a stamp from each of the checkpoints
o the time of arrival at each checkpoint
o the medal option completed
o the signature of the rider.
• The organizer must calculate the total time for the brevet and note it on the rider's route card in the space
provided.
• The organizer should collect all the Brevet cards until he receive the homologation stickers.
• Organizers should summarize brevet results within 10 days of the conclusion of the event."



No mention of the organiser being required to verify that the times stated were within the time limits, only calculate total time for the event. I know I have had two BRMs validated where I have missed one of the control times (one in the UK and one in another country). this has been the first control after sleeping on second or third night, where I either arrived later than expected (navigation issues) or simply decided I was not going to leave my hotel without breakfast, (riding 70km fasted did not appeal).
Even on PBP with the express instruction before the event "control times will be respected" people were still validated having missed a single control time.

also in the ACP BRM regs as published on aukwb
Quote
During the Brevet :
• At each checkpoint the organizers should stamp the riders' route cards and note the time of arrival to the
checkpoint.
• in the case of checkpoints without a member of the organizing staff present either: (1) a postcard notation
(to be verified against receipt of the postcard and its postmark)
; (2) a store receipt or other proof of
purchase with the time and date noted; or (3) information concerning a predetermined and identifiable
landmark or sign with the time and date noted. The organizer can prescribe which option is to be allowed for
a given checkpoint.
{/quote]

good luck proving that you arrived before 7am with a postmarked postcard

Looking at the UK regs https://www.audax.uk/media/1806/auk_regulations_050418.pdf

Quote
9.8.5 A rider arriving late at the final control may give a written explanation. The brevet will be
awarded if the validator considers the explanation is reasonable.
So either arriving late at the final control may be excused, but arriving late at other controls is acceptable does need a special explanation, or arriving late at the final control late may be excused (somehow) but arriving late at any other control is intolerable. I would suggest enforcement of unmanned intermediate controls should be more lenient.

I will also point out that on LEL FAQs there is specific instruction that riders should get independent proof of passage if they arrive late at a control, but still hope to finish in time. https://londonedinburghlondon.com/faq
Quote
What happens if I arrive late at a control?
If you are late at a control, but you think you can still finish in time, then please make every effort to continue.

Once the official time for the control to close has passed, it is up to the discretion of the controller for how long they stay at the control. If you arrive at a control later than the official closing time, and the control is closed, then please find alternative proof, such as a receipt from an ATM machine.
why bother getting a receipt if the ride will not be validated anyway?

So with
reports of many people being validated on PBP despite being out of time once
personal experience of being validated in uk and abroad despite missing a single control time
LEL FAQs suggesting alternative POP is worthwhile even if out of time
Rules suggesting special pleading is required specifically for being late at the last control
nothing in the rules to state rides should be disqualified for missing an intermediate time, and in fact optional proof of passage that does not allow time to be proved

Then my view is that it is not expected to deny riders who finish inside the time limit because at point x they were a little behind schedule, and my experience is that organisers are (correctly) not rules lawyering riders out of brevets due to a receipt not matching control times. I'm sure we have all had receipts from shops where the time is not correct on the till.

Obviously if the control was manned and the controller has left, then you are likely to have an issue.

Eddington  109miles

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: The Flatish ACME Grand 01/09/2022
« Reply #37 on: 04 August, 2022, 03:06:35 pm »
From https://www.audax-club-parisien.com/en/our-organizations/brm-world/#rules

Article 10

Overall time limits vary for each brevet according to the distance. These are: (in hours and minutes, HH:MM) 13:30 for 200 KM, 20:00 for 300 KM, 27:00 for 400 KM, 40:00 for 600 KM, and 75:00 for 1000 KM.

Additionally, riders must arrive at each checkpoint between the opening and closing time for the checkpoint and calculated as follows:
Opening: 34 km / h (km 1 to 200); 32 km / h (km 201 to 400); 30 km / h (km 401 to 600); 28 km / h (km 601 to 1000); commercial rounded by the minute.
Closing: 1 hour + 20 km / h (km 1 to 60); 15 km / h (km 61 to 600); 11.428 km / h (km 601 to 1000); commercial rounded by the minute.
These times are noted on the brevet card with the information for the checkpoints. Riders must arrive at each checkpoint between the start and the finish while the checkpoint is open. If a rider arrives at a checkpoint after it has closed and the ride organizer is satisfied that the rider’s lateness is due to the occurrence of something unforeseen and beyond the control of the rider (such as stopping to help at a traffic accident or a road closure), then the ride organizer may waive the fact that the rider arrived at the control late and allow the rider to continue. Poor bicycle or equipment maintenance, fatigue, lack of fitness, hunger, etc. are not unforeseen and beyond the control of the rider and therefore will not serve as a valid reason for being late. Subject to the foregoing, failure to make all checkpoints, even if the brevet is done within the overall time limit, will result in disqualification.

=====
The postcard thing is self-certifying that you posted the postcard between when the control opened and closed. Deliberately arriving after the control has closed is quite different to that.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Bianchi Boy

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Re: The Flatish ACME Grand 01/09/2022
« Reply #38 on: 04 August, 2022, 04:31:22 pm »
When I completed the Mille Pennines there was a control in Hawes and I think the majority of the entrants missed the time cut. It was at the start of the second day and we all had sore legs after the first day through the Lake District.

Just saying.

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Re: The Flatish ACME Grand 01/09/2022
« Reply #39 on: 04 August, 2022, 05:19:06 pm »
well it seems like these are typically French rules that are written in a very onerous* way, and then applied more reasonably. Because I can look at brevet cards in my possession which have been accepted by organisers and (presumably) validation secretaries. As well as reports of PBP and the LEL FAQs (yes I know PBP and LEL are not BRMs)

*a 1000km ride allows extra 8 hours (compared to 15kmh), but this can't be used for a sensible sleep pattern because some of it must be allotted to the stages on the last day, where it isn't needed. Anyone finishing just inside the time limit either slept (or had some random mechanical/issue) between the last control and arrivee or was probably out of time at the last control. (or maybe didn't sleep at all). So we don't really have 75 hours to finish a 1000km because if you need them all you can only be verified by riding with interrupted sleep, grabbing only an hour or two at a time. Isn't it better to let people sleep and then ride safely at good progress than force them to resume riding before they have had enough sleep and then have a series of short naps after each control as the battle the conflicting needs of the clock and fatigue?

The morning of the second day will also be problematic unless riders push on through the first night, which is fine with an afternoon or evening start but less sound for morning starts.


Eddington  109miles

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: The Flatish ACME Grand 01/09/2022
« Reply #40 on: 04 August, 2022, 05:52:14 pm »
The rules themselves are pretty clear. Be at every control while they are open, not "...a single unmanned control out of time is not a reason not to be validated, as per ACP rules." Any other approach is breaking the rules, even if an organiser or validator turns a blind eye. What rules you feel comfortable fudging is your business.

I have ridden brevets starting from virtually every hour of the day and my first 1000 brevet was in 1995. Depending on when you start (morning, afternoon, evening) and whether you ride through the first night, it all flows pretty well. PBP time limits are set up to encourage riders to ride through the first night. Why would you think that ACP's expectations towards riding a 1000 would be any different?

Full disclosure: I rode PBP07 which had additional time granted at intermediate controls during the return leg because of the weather and took advantage of that relaxation for an additional hour's sleep at an intermediate control.

Old Fart statement: I admire the riders that battle to comply with all the rules, not just the rules they like. A few PBPs ago, it was common to read reports of riders helping each other to get to the next intermediate control before they closed because of that fear of being DNFed. HK and I separately saw brevet cards being pulled at intermediate controls at PBPs past, so it was a real thing. Controllers naturally don't want to be the 'bad guy' pulling somebody's card and causing tears. Widespread publicity of turning a blind eye and getting validated seems to have produced a generation of audaxers that expect intermediate control times to be meaningless. I don't.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: The Flatish ACME Grand 01/09/2022
« Reply #41 on: 04 August, 2022, 09:10:28 pm »
This probably deserves a separate thread but, personally, I structure my long rides and sleep stops to enable me to pass through controls at the official times.

On this one, for example, I’ll be able to get my Pocklington stamp (return leg), go to my digs and then have loads of time to get to Gainsborough and drop back into schedule.  I have been at a PBP control while it was closing and seen riders pulled out.

Bianchi Boy

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Re: The Flatish ACME Grand 01/09/2022
« Reply #42 on: 05 August, 2022, 08:41:22 am »
Look, this is getting silly. I'll get up early and not have a lie in.....

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Re: The Flatish ACME Grand 01/09/2022
« Reply #43 on: 05 August, 2022, 01:14:19 pm »
Old Fart statement: I admire the riders that battle to comply with all the rules, not just the rules they like.

On PBP '19 I fully expected to be DNF'd if I didn't make the intermediate control times as this is what ACP had communicated. I met some AUK's who were turning round at Loudéac because they'd missed the control cut off and "knew" the game was up.

They would no doubt have been miffed when afterwards ACP decided that intermediate time didn't matter. Why bother with control timing chips and so on if this is how it works?

In my understanding, ACP do not like to have high DNF rates as this is bad publicity. So maybe this featured in their thinking in retrospectively easing the rules for that event. Or maybe the non-personalized control opening/closing times printed in the brevet cards which seemed to confuse many riders?

- Alex.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: The Flatish ACME Grand 01/09/2022
« Reply #44 on: 07 August, 2022, 02:48:05 pm »
French rules with German application is just asking for noise.
The English are Germans that wish they were French.
This is why the UK is a mess.


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Re: The Flatish ACME Grand 01/09/2022
« Reply #45 on: 08 August, 2022, 06:25:33 pm »
 ??? ???
Seriously!!??
Just like to have GPX if possible..when available.. thanks



FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: The Flatish ACME Grand 01/09/2022
« Reply #46 on: 09 August, 2022, 12:58:51 pm »
knocked out a gps by blatting in the controls on google walking and then running through the route sheet as best I could
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/40515635

I've gone horribly wrong somewhere!

Re: The Flatish ACME Grand 01/09/2022
« Reply #47 on: 09 August, 2022, 01:55:39 pm »
I’ve refined a route down to about 1035km. On the return route I’ve opted to go north of Rutland Water, but not on the A road as I’m not keen to ride on that, so that I can go through Peterborough and possibly have a sleep stop there.

I’m waiting for the official GPX so that I can compare my route to the official route. Not keen on trying to decipher the routesheet as that would take a long time.

Eddington: 131 miles    Max square: 43x43

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: The Flatish ACME Grand 01/09/2022
« Reply #48 on: 09 August, 2022, 01:58:04 pm »
I started with sub-1000 but it was doing a few footpaths and busy roads and soon got it up to what's above.
I don't know the roads at all, although I can turn on my personal heat map for a fair whack of the vale of york .

Re: The Flatish ACME Grand 01/09/2022
« Reply #49 on: 09 August, 2022, 02:20:17 pm »
I’ve refined a route down to about 1035km. On the return route I’ve opted to go north of Rutland Water, but not on the A road as I’m not keen to ride on that, so that I can go through Peterborough and possibly have a sleep stop there.

I’m waiting for the official GPX so that I can compare my route to the official route. Not keen on trying to decipher the routesheet as that would take a long time.

I'll probably do something similar: I used to live in Stamford and I'd like to revisit it. Apart from anything else it's a rather attractive town. The minor road route from Oakham is a couple of k longer than the main road, but much more pleasant. The only problem with this diversion is having to negotiate the Bretton slip roads in Peterborough, which I'm not looking forward to after 800+ km.