Author Topic: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness  (Read 30819 times)

Panoramix

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Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #325 on: 29 June, 2020, 01:40:07 pm »
I wouldn't call myself an experienced modeller but I've flown a small model aircraft home built out of foam on the cheap, I found it fun to grok the physics to make it flyable and I've flown it within the law (I think, and this was 8 years ago so before the media realised model aircraft existed and parliaments felt compelled to legislate!). I don't understand why model fliers are vilified like this, sure there are idiots who need to be dealt with but most guys just want to spend some time tinkering. AFAIK no serious accident has happened yet. If the same standard of precaution was applied on the road, cars would be forbidden on roads to protect cyclists, and to follow the logic that the skies belong exclusively to aircraft, birds should also be made extinct!
Chief cat entertainer.

Morat

  • I tried to HTFU but something went ping :(
Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #326 on: 29 June, 2020, 05:22:10 pm »
I get the feeling (and it's nothing more scientific than that) that drones started to be A Menace at the point that they became equipped with cameras. Until then they were a harmless pastime for young geeks and harmless old buffers.

Now they're for Perverts and Invaders of Your Privacy and therefore fair game for the red tops who can proclaim that Drones are used to fly HD cameras over children and Something Must Be Done.
Tandem Stoker, CX bike abuser (slicks and tarmac) and owner of a sadly neglected MTB.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #327 on: 29 June, 2020, 06:03:37 pm »
Nahh, it's because they became cheap enough for oiks to muck about with.  Nobody cared when it was just commercial operators and beardies in their sheds.


andytheflyer

  • Andytheex-flyer.....
Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #328 on: 29 June, 2020, 06:22:24 pm »
(..........and this was 8 years ago so before the media realised model aircraft existed and parliaments felt compelled to legislate!). I don't understand why model fliers are vilified like this, sure there are idiots who need to be dealt with but most guys just want to spend some time tinkering. AFAIK no serious accident has happened yet.

Exactly.  The problem was that our legislator 'experts' could not find a way of differentiating multirotor flying machines carrying cameras, from fixed wing or single (or maybe a twin) rotary wing models that do nothing other than challenge the building and flying skills of enthusiasts.  That's what they are paid to do, be creative, find ways of defining offences.

Typical fecking legislators, impact everyone, even the legit guys who've been quietly and safely minding their own business for decades, then you can be sure that you won't get the real villains. 

Bitter, moi?  Nah.  F*ck off HMG, CAA, EASA, etc.

Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #329 on: 29 June, 2020, 06:26:04 pm »
What difference did the regs make to existing RC model flyers ?
Rust never sleeps

TheLurker

  • Goes well with magnolia.
Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #330 on: 29 June, 2020, 06:40:29 pm »
What difference did the regs make to existing RC model flyers ?
In brief:
Further restrictions on max. altitude, weight as well as flight locations.
Additional permits/certificates (which have to be paid for) required.

More (accurate) info. here https://rcc.bmfa.uk  & https://rcc.bmfa.uk/know-the-law

The 400'  max altitude* is a bit of a bugger even for us Free Flight types.  A model without a dethermaliser (DT) can easily go well over 400' if it catches a strong thermal. 

*That's 400' above the head of the remote operator.  Allows for slope soaring.  Subject to AUW of 7Kg and have to be a member of BMFA, SMAE & one or two other model flying orgs.
Τα πιο όμορφα ταξίδια γίνονται με τις δικές μας δυνάμεις - Φίλοι του Ποδήλατου

Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #331 on: 29 June, 2020, 10:46:19 pm »
Many years ago, as a yoof,  at a kite festival on Blackheath, I was flying a train of five fairly small (~1m wingspan) delta kites.
The line was marked. I could tell that I had nearly 2km of line in the air. You couldn't see the top kite.
I was approached by a gentleman in a suit.
'How high are you flying those kites?'
I shrugged.
'Im from the CAA and I'm going to have to ask you to bring them down.'
It took a considerable amount of time to reel them in.

TheLurker

  • Goes well with magnolia.
Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #332 on: 26 January, 2021, 05:20:08 pm »
I suppose it was only a matter of time.  Two drone / chopper collisions in under a fortnight. The second pretty bad.

Chile  - https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/26/drone_helicopter_collision/

USA -  https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/16/drone_helicopter_crash/
Τα πιο όμορφα ταξίδια γίνονται με τις δικές μας δυνάμεις - Φίλοι του Ποδήλατου

Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #333 on: 26 January, 2021, 06:02:25 pm »
I suppose it was only a matter of time.  Two drone / chopper collisions in under a fortnight. The second pretty bad.

Chile  - https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/26/drone_helicopter_collision/

USA -  https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/16/drone_helicopter_crash/

The USA one seems to be utter stupidity. How could you *not* know there was a chopper in the vicinity, unless you were completely deaf (and even then would likely pick up the vibration).

<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #334 on: 26 January, 2021, 06:06:10 pm »
I suppose it was only a matter of time.  Two drone / chopper collisions in under a fortnight. The second pretty bad.

Chile  - https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/26/drone_helicopter_collision/

USA -  https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/16/drone_helicopter_crash/

The USA one seems to be utter stupidity. How could you *not* know there was a chopper in the vicinity, unless you were completely deaf (and even then would likely pick up the vibration).

He appears to have flown the drone *because* there was a police helicopter nearby and he wanted to know what was going on.

Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #335 on: 27 January, 2021, 03:17:58 pm »
I suppose it was only a matter of time.  Two drone / chopper collisions in under a fortnight. The second pretty bad.

Chile  - https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/26/drone_helicopter_collision/

USA -  https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/16/drone_helicopter_crash/

The USA one seems to be utter stupidity. How could you *not* know there was a chopper in the vicinity, unless you were completely deaf (and even then would likely pick up the vibration).

He appears to have flown the drone *because* there was a police helicopter nearby and he wanted to know what was going on.

The S-T thread is that way -->
<i>Marmite slave</i>

TheLurker

  • Goes well with magnolia.
Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #336 on: 21 February, 2021, 08:11:02 am »
Astonished that this didn't make the national news at the time.  AAIB report published this week. 

tl;dr 95Kg (yes Kg) drone out of control in class A controlled airspace over Goodwood followed by uncontrolled descent and crash.  No-one hurt.  This time.

News article -   https://www.theregister.com/2021/02/19/airspeeder_alauda_drone_goodwood_investigation/

AAIB Report - https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib-investigation-to-alauda-airspeeder-mk-ii-uas-registration-n-slash-a-040719  link to full PDF.

Six months after the "ghost" drone.
Τα πιο όμορφα ταξίδια γίνονται με τις δικές μας δυνάμεις - Φίλοι του Ποδήλατου

Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #337 on: 21 February, 2021, 01:02:11 pm »
Astonished that this didn't make the national news at the time.  AAIB report published this week. 

tl;dr 95Kg (yes Kg) drone out of control in class A controlled airspace over Goodwood followed by uncontrolled descent and crash.  No-one hurt.  This time.

News article -   https://www.theregister.com/2021/02/19/airspeeder_alauda_drone_goodwood_investigation/

AAIB Report - https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib-investigation-to-alauda-airspeeder-mk-ii-uas-registration-n-slash-a-040719  link to full PDF.

Six months after the "ghost" drone.

Hoo boy, that's a bit of an omnishambles wrapped up in a fustercluck.  :facepalm:
He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster.
And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.

Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #338 on: 21 February, 2021, 01:34:14 pm »
The pictures on that report are mind-blowing. You can operate a 95 kg drone on three Arduinos on prototyping board and the kill switch is a Normally Closed relay with zero monitoring of whether the receiver is reachable until you press the button and nothing happens?

And they were planning to build a human capable drone with the same tech?

I bet Kim has more airworthy stuff powering her doorbell.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #339 on: 21 February, 2021, 01:45:10 pm »
Sadly, an Arduino onna prototyping board is *exactly* what I have powering my doorbell...



Though it does at least get pinged every 30 seconds to check it's still working, and its flight ceiling is limited by the 5m USB cable.

andytheflyer

  • Andytheex-flyer.....
Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #340 on: 21 February, 2021, 03:42:56 pm »
Astonished that this didn't make the national news at the time.  AAIB report published this week. 

tl;dr 95Kg (yes Kg) drone out of control in class A controlled airspace over Goodwood followed by uncontrolled descent and crash.  No-one hurt.  This time.

News article -   https://www.theregister.com/2021/02/19/airspeeder_alauda_drone_goodwood_investigation/

AAIB Report - https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib-investigation-to-alauda-airspeeder-mk-ii-uas-registration-n-slash-a-040719  link to full PDF.

Six months after the "ghost" drone.
I think that if I'd turned up at my model flying club with that, and asked the CFI to check it out before I flew it, I'd have been told to take it home for a re-think. What were they thinking of?  95kg death trap............

TheLurker

  • Goes well with magnolia.
Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #341 on: 21 February, 2021, 07:47:14 pm »
Quote from: grams
...three Arduinos on prototyping board and the kill switch is a Normally Closed relay with zero monitoring of whether the receiver is reachable...
Leaving aside the atrocious mess they made of the soldering I have no issue with prototyping boards being used in a prototype assuming they've made sure that all the cable runs are set up and components are sufficiently well shielded so that RFI and other cross-talk isn't a problem (aye, right), but an NC relay?  No, I couldn't quite believe that either.  An utterly unforgiveable hanging offence. 
Τα πιο όμορφα ταξίδια γίνονται με τις δικές μας δυνάμεις - Φίλοι του Ποδήλατου

Panoramix

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Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #342 on: 21 February, 2021, 09:00:16 pm »
I suppose it was only a matter of time.  Two drone / chopper collisions in under a fortnight. The second pretty bad.

Chile  - https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/26/drone_helicopter_collision/

USA -  https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/16/drone_helicopter_crash/

The helicopter/aircraft always seems to win... Don't ge me wrong I am not condoning reckless flying but I suspect that the press is exaggerating the risk as small hobby drones aren't bigger/heavier than a black gull and there are more gulls flying around!
Chief cat entertainer.

Beardy

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Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #343 on: 21 February, 2021, 09:03:58 pm »
But Gulls tend to be autonomous and have a sense of self preservation. As a hobby dronist I don’t want to see lots of heavy regulation, not least because it doesn’t usually stop the idiots or ne’er do well’s but the idiots do need to be reigned in somehow.
Sorting my life out, one shed at a time.

Panoramix

  • 50 61 6E 6F 72 61 6D 69 78
  • Suus cuique crepitus bene olet
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Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #344 on: 22 February, 2021, 04:20:42 am »
But Gulls tend to be autonomous and have a sense of self preservation. As a hobby dronist I don’t want to see lots of heavy regulation, not least because it doesn’t usually stop the idiots or ne’er do well’s but the idiots do need to be reigned in somehow.

I can't see a Gull reliably coming out of the way of an aircraft flying much faster! As for reigning in the idiots, in theory yes but look at the number of people driving like idiots, can't see how they could eradicate idiocy... and nobody has yet downed an aircraft with a drone out of idiocy AFAIK. The main merit of these drone scares is to sell newspapers IMHO.
Chief cat entertainer.

Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #345 on: 22 February, 2021, 07:31:09 am »
But Gulls tend to be autonomous and have a sense of self preservation. As a hobby dronist I don’t want to see lots of heavy regulation, not least because it doesn’t usually stop the idiots or ne’er do well’s but the idiots do need to be reigned in somehow.

I can't see a Gull reliably coming out of the way of an aircraft flying much faster! As for reigning in the idiots, in theory yes but look at the number of people driving like idiots, can't see how they could eradicate idiocy... and nobody has yet downed an aircraft with a drone out of idiocy AFAIK. The main merit of these drone scares is to sell newspapers IMHO.

Did you miss this:

Quote
I suppose it was only a matter of time.  Two drone / chopper collisions in under a fortnight. The second pretty bad.

Chile  - https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/26/drone_helicopter_collision/

USA -  https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/16/drone_helicopter_crash/
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #346 on: 22 February, 2021, 09:16:55 am »
The thing is politicians with a populist agenda have a tendency to create and pass duff laws to appease their audience.  The laws are almost completely unfit for purpose or simply unenforceable.   Dangerous dogs and mobile phone use whilst driving spring immediately to mind and no doubt I could come up with lots more with very little effort.  The licencing of waste disposal to reduce fly tipping is another piece of useless legislation which achieves nothing but a bit of extra bureaucracy.

Sometimes enforcement of existing laws would actually solve the problem.  Drones are already significantly legislated for but as with many things the laws are simpmy populist headlines and enforcement is considered too expensive or simply unnecessary.

Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #347 on: 22 February, 2021, 09:52:06 am »
The drone already failed to meet basic airworthiness standards and wouldn't have flown if it had been inspected. The problem was the CAA approved it without seeing it, even though it was just some random guy on the phone who'd just arrived from Australia.

There's an amazing line in the report about a CAA person arriving the morning of the show to have a look (although it didn't require their sign-off), but somehow allowed themselves to be directed to the hospitality area.

Panoramix

  • 50 61 6E 6F 72 61 6D 69 78
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Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #348 on: 22 February, 2021, 11:23:58 am »
But Gulls tend to be autonomous and have a sense of self preservation. As a hobby dronist I don’t want to see lots of heavy regulation, not least because it doesn’t usually stop the idiots or ne’er do well’s but the idiots do need to be reigned in somehow.

I can't see a Gull reliably coming out of the way of an aircraft flying much faster! As for reigning in the idiots, in theory yes but look at the number of people driving like idiots, can't see how they could eradicate idiocy... and nobody has yet downed an aircraft with a drone out of idiocy AFAIK. The main merit of these drone scares is to sell newspapers IMHO.

Did you miss this:

Quote
I suppose it was only a matter of time.  Two drone / chopper collisions in under a fortnight. The second pretty bad.

Chile  - https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/26/drone_helicopter_collision/

USA -  https://www.theregister.com/2021/01/16/drone_helicopter_crash/

No I didn't miss it, the drone "lost", TBH I think that the drone scare stories equivalent for cycling would be  "There are idiot cyclists all over the place, let's make a licence scheme to stop them smashing into HGVs". You can impose as many rules as you want, there will always be idiots to undertake between an HGV and railings at a junction, your best bet is to let every cyclist know that this is a very bad move. Yes, preserving lives is a good idea but if they want to actually improve safety there probably are more efficient and less obtrusive ways. They could perfectly impose stringent consumer norms on the drones you can buy over the counter and ask DIYers to self regulate through a few national associations. If you want to take a few aerial shots, you buy a safe tamed down machine that can mostly fly itself, if you are serious about it you join a club were you get tuition and insurance.

Here in France we are specialists of over regulation, I work in construction and there are more accidents (often through sheer stupidity) on construction site despite all the rules that few actually understand and for road fatalities, it is the same thing!
Chief cat entertainer.

Re: Gatwick drones -what utter stupidity and selfishness
« Reply #349 on: 22 February, 2021, 03:23:15 pm »
Astonished that this didn't make the national news at the time.  AAIB report published this week. 

tl;dr 95Kg (yes Kg) drone out of control in class A controlled airspace over Goodwood followed by uncontrolled descent and crash.  No-one hurt.  This time.

News article -   https://www.theregister.com/2021/02/19/airspeeder_alauda_drone_goodwood_investigation/

AAIB Report - https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib-investigation-to-alauda-airspeeder-mk-ii-uas-registration-n-slash-a-040719  link to full PDF.

Six months after the "ghost" drone.
I think that if I'd turned up at my model flying club with that, and asked the CFI to check it out before I flew it, I'd have been told to take it home for a re-think. What were they thinking of?  95kg death trap............

The kill switch antennas were the default came with the module. The gain on them are woeful probably a range of 10m or something. Even worse in an enclosure.

That whole thing was a mass of prototype breakout boards cable tied together, while I love the amount of stuff I can get now on the internet for prototyping it has drawbacks when idiots build stuff.
Somewhat of a professional tea drinker.