Author Topic: ACME Miscellany  (Read 303059 times)

Wowbagger

  • Sylph
    • Musings of a Gentleman Cyclist
Re: ACME Miscellany
« Reply #4575 on: 04 June, 2021, 10:51:26 pm »
I prepared a video on how to remove Rohloff sprockets. From BFC's description, it's a similar method.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD2K1lrES4E&ab_channel=wowbagger1954
Bach without a doubt.

Re: ACME Miscellany
« Reply #4576 on: 05 June, 2021, 05:22:21 pm »
XD cassettes are the work of Stan. That is all.

I so agree.

I prepared a video on how to remove Rohloff sprockets. From BFC's description, it's a similar method.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD2K1lrES4E&ab_channel=wowbagger1954

Great video. Makes the removal seem so easy.

My further attempts were not positive. WD40 soaking didn’t seem to change anything. I’ve got the Park Tools chain whip, but it was not catching on the larger cogs as BFC recommended. Possibly the teeth were too worn, as I’ve not had an issue with the chain whip previously. Using the vice also wasn’t working still.

Finally, I made a call and took the wheel to Newdales in Saffron Walden. They are absolute stars in there. I arrived at the end of the lunch period, timing perfectly so nobody else was in the shop. The wheel was taken straight to the mechanic, who returned the wheel in less than a minute with the cassette removed. I really wanted to pay for this, but they refused any payment.

I’ve now installed the new cassette, using copper grease, and the new oval chainring and chain. All logged in my recently acquired component mileage logging app that links to Strava. That prompts when it is time to check / replace components. I’m ready to ride.

Thanks for the tips along the way.

Eddington: 130 miles

BFC

Re: ACME Miscellany
« Reply #4577 on: 05 June, 2021, 09:59:13 pm »
If you have the old cassette I would like to do an autopsy on it (of it?), look at wear marks, try to figure out what tooling/methods may actually work to get these little sods off. First thought is a two handed chain whip that doesn't pull the cassette to one side (with the lockring tool in a vice to allow for the fact that most persons only have two hands).

Re: ACME Miscellany
« Reply #4578 on: 06 June, 2021, 08:44:15 am »
If you have the old cassette I would like to do an autopsy on it (of it?), look at wear marks, try to figure out what tooling/methods may actually work to get these little sods off. First thought is a two handed chain whip that doesn't pull the cassette to one side (with the lockring tool in a vice to allow for the fact that most persons only have two hands).

I’ve been thinking about a secondary use for the cassette, and donating it for scientific research sounds like a fine idea. I’ll bring it along to the next MEMWNS where I know we’ll both be in attendance ... I think this week might be a west/east split.

Eddington: 130 miles

BFC

Re: ACME Miscellany
« Reply #4579 on: 06 June, 2021, 09:24:54 pm »
If you have the old cassette I would like to do an autopsy on it (of it?), look at wear marks, try to figure out what tooling/methods may actually work to get these little sods off. First thought is a two handed chain whip that doesn't pull the cassette to one side (with the lockring tool in a vice to allow for the fact that most persons only have two hands).

I’ve been thinking about a secondary use for the cassette, and donating it for scientific research sounds like a fine idea. I’ll bring it along to the next MEMWNS where I know we’ll both be in attendance ... I think this week might be a west/east split.
Todays engineering mission is completed, inspired by the Stan design:
A two handed chain whip fitted with a long 10sp chain (and suede handles) now exists, to suit fitting on the larger sprockets of many modern cassettes. Design takes inspiration from the old Dura Ace track tool (uses a cunning tension spring that means you can let go of the bloody thing without it falling off the sprocket).
It works single handed for normal jobs, but at 600mm long will require a bit of planning for transportation by bike!
Works very nicely on my 11sp wheels, chain is reconstructed from never used offcuts of new chains, suede is from a knackered leather jacket :smug:
A solution to a "first world problem", but I only had the DA track and a bog standard cyclus chainwhip in the toolbox, nothing that really suited the big sprockets on my 11sp bikes, and their fat chains didn't fit between the sprockets. Shame it's too long to fit in the toolbox :facepalm:

Re: ACME Miscellany
« Reply #4580 on: 08 June, 2021, 12:51:41 pm »
Descending Woodhill Road, Danbury, going like the clappers  ;D, as you do, when a rabbit sized lump of fur leapt out of the verge! It hit my left foot, near the bottom of the stroke, and bounced back into the verge.  :o
Lucky or what?  8)

Oscar's dad

  • aka Septimus Fitzwilliam Beauregard Partridge
Re: ACME Miscellany
« Reply #4581 on: 08 June, 2021, 01:27:41 pm »
Descending Woodhill Road, Danbury, going like the clappers  ;D, as you do, when a rabbit sized lump of fur leapt out of the verge! It hit my left foot, near the bottom of the stroke, and bounced back into the verge.  :o
Lucky or what?  8)

huggy and Tomsk will be along in a minute to remind us all of their badger encounters.  If the car drivers of Essex don't get you the wildlife will!  Be careful out there  :thumbsup:

Re: ACME Miscellany
« Reply #4582 on: 08 June, 2021, 02:35:17 pm »
Descending Woodhill Road, Danbury, going like the clappers  ;D, as you do, when a rabbit sized lump of fur leapt out of the verge! It hit my left foot, near the bottom of the stroke, and bounced back into the verge.  :o
Lucky or what?  8)

huggy and Tomsk will be along in a minute to remind us all of their badger encounters.  If the car drivers of Essex don't get you the wildlife will!  Be careful out there  :thumbsup:
And the potholes! The one that took me out is forming again in the same spot.

Re: ACME Miscellany
« Reply #4583 on: 09 June, 2021, 01:46:28 pm »
Just tried to report that pothole via fillthathole and when finished it said that Essex CC no longer accept reports by email and gave a link to their website. I reported it there as well.

tedshred

  • AKA: Dirk - Let me see those hands
Re: ACME Miscellany
« Reply #4584 on: 10 June, 2021, 10:15:25 am »
Quicker than the human eye

EER were back at the Alma again last night as we continue to see out the final nights (  :-\ ) of Step 3.  At least we managed to pick a venue that was open.

I was very late following a km/miles mix up.  For someone who has passed his Ocean Yachtmaster astral navigation exam, I really do make an awful navigator  :facepalm:

Huggy, the Hustler and Carlos were sitting talking to a young person who may or may not have been at the wrong table.  They were identifying as a cyclist despite having clearly arrived by motorbike. They were also claiming to be from Essex despite sporting a large tattoo of the Sudbury CC mileage trophy and an accent from the deep welsh valleys.  All this stuff is a minefield - where were our masters of tact, OD and BFC, when we needed them, (although the Hustler did make a futile attempt to audition for the role of OD). The venue itself was hoaching with cyclists but mainly of the deep sectioned wheels and slim physique flavour.  Those of us who braved the icy nights of May (May !) could sit with a feeling of moral superiority as we viewed our fair-weather and home by 8.15 colleagues. The main business for this conclave was an evening class for Carlos in "trucker bants".  Who better to school him in the dark arts than three blokes who had never driven a truck much less shouted lewd comments out of an open window.  He is in the actual cab next week but we hope to cover lorry driver pop disposal the week after and Carlos has promised to practise whilst out on his bike - think of the time "Carlos, King of the hedge stop" could save on an average audax if he didn't have to slow down never mind stop.  We also witnessed the unveiling of a surprising new member of the infamous Ti Circle.  Finally, there was just time for a brief meeting of 70's children's tv club before it was time to convene the judging panel. 

Our choice of judges was as limited as the cholce of ale.  It has really come to something when you are comparing GK IPA to St Austell Tribute and Carlos has been co-opted onto the QCC.  The Tribute was pretty drinkable to be fair but none of us could bring ourselves to make any award.  I am not sure any of us were that bothered.  It is hard to be grumpy when you are sitting in a warm beer garden, in good company with a drink in your hand.

Looking back, I realise I may have been too relaxed.  The signs were all there; Carlos moaning about his unfit legs, Carlos doing a warm-up lap before the pub, Carlos dressed in a skintight Rapha top, Carlos offering to ride in the opposite direction to his way home in order to accompany me part of the way back, Carlos sitting astride his white sooty dream machine with a glint in his eye as I saddled up to leave the pub...  It was all there, I just missed it.  He had been sandbagging for a few weeks and now it was time for him to show me some of his true speed and leave me for dust in a sweaty, humiliated heap.  What's worse is that he slowed down to encourage me to take a turn that took me off my chosen route home and across the notorious Layer de la Haye massif.  It was only as he sped off to his lair that I remembered the other reason why I wanted to go the flat way via the reservoir - there were road closed signs being laid out during my journey to the venue.  "Mind the fire" shouted a helpful road operative as I picked my way past a truck with an actual fire at the back and avoided the people painting lines and doing all manner of road works. At least it looked like they might be sealing some of the loose chippings at last.  I didn't even need an actual fire to stay warm for last night's homecoming.  It was the first return of the year in shorts and short sleeves, how I cursed as I noted the missed sandal opportunity.  All that and home just after 11.30, roll on Step 4 now that we don't even need to be inside.




The pleasure of pain endured
To purify our misfit ways

BFC

Re: ACME Miscellany
« Reply #4585 on: 10 June, 2021, 04:02:48 pm »
If you have the old cassette I would like to do an autopsy on it (of it?), look at wear marks, try to figure out what tooling/methods may actually work to get these little sods off. First thought is a two handed chain whip that doesn't pull the cassette to one side (with the lockring tool in a vice to allow for the fact that most persons only have two hands).

I’ve been thinking about a secondary use for the cassette, and donating it for scientific research sounds like a fine idea. I’ll bring it along to the next MEMWNS where I know we’ll both be in attendance ... I think this week might be a west/east split.

The SRAM XD Cassette has been dissected. No sign of metal to metal seizure or any wear patterns on the metal parts of the collar, looks like the locking up is a design feature! Only wear marks are on the plastic section of the collar.
The feature is the overmolded section on the locking collar that has become an extremely tight fit in the seat in the cassette and the freehub body. I believe this is down to material choice - Nylon, which absorbs a significant percentage of its weight of water and expands in the real world. I guess it works as thread locking feature though....
I expect this tightness combined with a chain whip on one of the smaller sprockets will prevent turning of the collar. A chainwhip optimised for the larger sprockets (cassette is dished so optimum alignment with the splines is to use it on cog 3 or 2) avoids further pinching of the collar between the cassette and the freehub body.

The lockring tool needs a minimum of 7mm spline length to fully engage with the strong parts at the base of the splines.

tedshred

  • AKA: Dirk - Let me see those hands
Re: ACME Miscellany
« Reply #4586 on: 10 June, 2021, 04:12:39 pm »
I was also able to lend my considerable engineering expertise to the BFC's mechanical autopsy.

What he said basically.

He does have a lovely big tool though - I think some of you may have seen it last night.  It has a spring and everything.

The pleasure of pain endured
To purify our misfit ways

Re: ACME Miscellany
« Reply #4587 on: 10 June, 2021, 04:27:43 pm »
Cool. So in summary the chain whip should be positioned around one of the largest cogs to enable removal. In this case my Park Tool wasn't able to do connect properly with those cogs, so kept slipping. But the ingenious BFC weapon overcomes that limitation through clever design features.

@BFC, as an aside, how worn in general does the cassette look, using your trained eye?

Eddington: 130 miles

BFC

Re: ACME Miscellany
« Reply #4588 on: 10 June, 2021, 06:13:30 pm »
Cool. So in summary the chain whip should be positioned around one of the largest cogs to enable removal. In this case my Park Tool wasn't able to do connect properly with those cogs, so kept slipping. But the ingenious BFC weapon overcomes that limitation through clever design features.

@BFC, as an aside, how worn in general does the cassette look, using your trained eye?

Main wear is on cogs 5 to 8 with significant burrs on the teeth, I would expect these to jump with a new chain. Cog 9 (14t) has light wear but a broken tooth (probably recent so possibly chainwhip related rather than use?). Cog 11 (10t) looks almost unused, very light use of cog 10 (12t).
If that hub ever dies look at a more standard freehub design that doesn't have the design compromises to accommodate the 10t sprocket! Standard 11 speed shimano etc are limited to 11t smallest sprocket.

The chain whip neeeded a much longer chain than normal and I found it's mounting point on the handle needs tweaking to ensure good engagement on the large sprockets. I also mounted the short fixed chain length on a carved section of handle that matches the curve of a 32t sprocket to avoid overstressing individual teeth (cog 3 on this cassette turns out to be 32t). Two handle design should not be necessary, but 10/11s chain is probably needed to get between the sprockets nicely which is useful if taking off a cassette that is planned to be refitted.

Planning to return the cleaned and dissected bits to you. I sliced the pins between cogs 4 and 5 using a cut off tool (air grinder running a 2mm thick disc) to release the collar from it's "cage".

Re: ACME Miscellany
« Reply #4589 on: 13 June, 2021, 07:50:04 am »
Anyone planning to do the Windmill ride next weekend and want to form an ACME group given we have been asked for preferences?

Re: ACME Miscellany
« Reply #4590 on: 14 June, 2021, 12:41:01 pm »
I'm entered for the ride, and happy to form an ACME peleton  :thumbsup:
Proving ambition is undone by ability since 1958...


Re: ACME Miscellany
« Reply #4591 on: 14 June, 2021, 01:41:10 pm »
I'm also in for the 200  :)
Those wonderful norks are never far from my thoughts, oh yeah!

Re: ACME Miscellany
« Reply #4592 on: 14 June, 2021, 01:49:10 pm »
Main wear is on cogs 5 to 8 with significant burrs on the teeth, I would expect these to jump with a new chain.
They were jumping with the old chain too, hence my need for a quick transmission change before my ride this weekend just gone.

If that hub ever dies look at a more standard freehub design that doesn't have the design compromises to accommodate the 10t sprocket! Standard 11 speed shimano etc are limited to 11t smallest sprocket.
Noted.

Planning to return the cleaned and dissected bits to you. I sliced the pins between cogs 4 and 5 using a cut off tool (air grinder running a 2mm thick disc) to release the collar from it's "cage".
And there was me thinking I'd disposed of the cassette  ;D

Anyone planning to do the Windmill ride next weekend and want to form an ACME group given we have been asked for preferences?
I'm heading off for more hills this Sunday.

Eddington: 130 miles

Re: ACME Miscellany
« Reply #4593 on: 15 June, 2021, 05:03:54 pm »
Got seven minutes to spare? Want to relive those heady days of riding up North Hill? Want to listen heavy breathing?
This is for you.  :thumbsup:
https://youtu.be/ovCgaYtXujA

Re: ACME Miscellany
« Reply #4594 on: 15 June, 2021, 05:26:36 pm »
....The feature is the overmolded section on the locking collar that has become an extremely tight fit in the seat in the cassette and the freehub body. I believe this is down to material choice - Nylon, which absorbs a significant percentage of its weight of water and expands in the real world. I guess it works as thread locking feature though....
I expect this tightness combined with a chain whip on one of the smaller sprockets will prevent turning of the collar. ......

So lessons learned and to be explored....

Put hub in warm oven after cooking a meal in order to evaporate water and shrink nylon in order to ease the unlocking?

Question, what temperature? 

BFC

Re: ACME Miscellany
« Reply #4595 on: 16 June, 2021, 02:53:02 pm »
....The feature is the overmolded section on the locking collar that has become an extremely tight fit in the seat in the cassette and the freehub body. I believe this is down to material choice - Nylon, which absorbs a significant percentage of its weight of water and expands in the real world. I guess it works as thread locking feature though....
I expect this tightness combined with a chain whip on one of the smaller sprockets will prevent turning of the collar. ......

So lessons learned and to be explored....

Put hub in warm oven after cooking a meal in order to evaporate water and shrink nylon in order to ease the unlocking?

Question, what temperature?
I wouldn't risk it! The wrath of the chef/cook/wife (add/delete as appropriate) when they realise the food tastes of chaingrease and whetever you used to get some of it off (you will not get it all with that design of cassette until it's been dissected) is not worth the grief. Look into preparation required for nylon pellets for injection molding if you think its worth the risk.

When plastics are first molded they go through a period of dimensional stabilisation, initially nylon shrinks - then it expands as it absorbs water. Time period depends upon environment, but there is a high risk that in bike factories these cassettes are fitted with the nylon in it's smallest state before expanding in the container as it crosses a few oceons and our climate doesn't help.
The good news is that it is almost certain that a replacement cassette has expanded on it's journey around the planet and stabilised before it ever gets to the home mechanic, you just have to get the factory fitted part off without destroying the wheel or freehub.

jiberjaber

  • ... Fancy Pants \o/ ...
  • ACME S&M^2
Re: ACME Miscellany
« Reply #4596 on: 16 June, 2021, 03:59:26 pm »
....The feature is the overmolded section on the locking collar that has become an extremely tight fit in the seat in the cassette and the freehub body. I believe this is down to material choice - Nylon, which absorbs a significant percentage of its weight of water and expands in the real world. I guess it works as thread locking feature though....
I expect this tightness combined with a chain whip on one of the smaller sprockets will prevent turning of the collar. ......

So lessons learned and to be explored....

Put hub in warm oven after cooking a meal in order to evaporate water and shrink nylon in order to ease the unlocking?

Question, what temperature?
I wouldn't risk it! The wrath of the chef/cook/wife (add/delete as appropriate) when they realise the food tastes of chaingrease and whetever you used to get some of it off (you will not get it all with that design of cassette until it's been dissected) is not worth the grief. Look into preparation required for nylon pellets for injection molding if you think its worth the risk.

When plastics are first molded they go through a period of dimensional stabilisation, initially nylon shrinks - then it expands as it absorbs water. Time period depends upon environment, but there is a high risk that in bike factories these cassettes are fitted with the nylon in it's smallest state before expanding in the container as it crosses a few oceons and our climate doesn't help.
The good news is that it is almost certain that a replacement cassette has expanded on it's journey around the planet and stabilised before it ever gets to the home mechanic, you just have to get the factory fitted part off without destroying the wheel or freehub.

I agree - to dry out filament for the 3d printer it takes almost a day in the oven.... and you don't need to remove a tyre etc to fit it in! :)
Regards,

Joergen

BFC

Re: ACME Miscellany
« Reply #4597 on: 16 June, 2021, 04:54:21 pm »
....The feature is the overmolded section on the locking collar that has become an extremely tight fit in the seat in the cassette and the freehub body. I believe this is down to material choice - Nylon, which absorbs a significant percentage of its weight of water and expands in the real world. I guess it works as thread locking feature though....
I expect this tightness combined with a chain whip on one of the smaller sprockets will prevent turning of the collar. ......

So lessons learned and to be explored....

Put hub in warm oven after cooking a meal in order to evaporate water and shrink nylon in order to ease the unlocking?

Question, what temperature?
I wouldn't risk it! The wrath of the chef/cook/wife (add/delete as appropriate) when they realise the food tastes of chaingrease and whetever you used to get some of it off (you will not get it all with that design of cassette until it's been dissected) is not worth the grief. Look into preparation required for nylon pellets for injection molding if you think its worth the risk.

When plastics are first molded they go through a period of dimensional stabilisation, initially nylon shrinks - then it expands as it absorbs water. Time period depends upon environment, but there is a high risk that in bike factories these cassettes are fitted with the nylon in it's smallest state before expanding in the container as it crosses a few oceons and our climate doesn't help.
The good news is that it is almost certain that a replacement cassette has expanded on it's journey around the planet and stabilised before it ever gets to the home mechanic, you just have to get the factory fitted part off without destroying the wheel or freehub.

I agree - to dry out filament for the 3d printer it takes almost a day in the oven.... and you don't need to remove a tyre etc to fit it in! :)
Metal to metal issues with different expansion rates and corrosion are a lot easier to get information on, but plastics are a specialist field with very limited info available. In some industries "we" have learned to live with the material choices of engineers, cycling is an ongoing home for half baked designs tested on the consumer.
Cars etc are required to be compliant with all regulations up to 160,000km which has forced an understanding of "long term" design and service issues, competition with long term warranty companies has also driven a rise to the top. Cycling is still using it's customers as unpaid test staff. You noticed the design defect at 1 year and 0.0001days "Sir/Madame", so buy a new one and make even more profit for us!

Tomsk

  • Fueled by cake since 1957
    • tomsk.co.uk
Re: ACME Miscellany
« Reply #4598 on: 18 June, 2021, 07:19:23 pm »
Further thoughts about a summer bivvy night: I'm now likely to be free to ride the DunRun on Saturday 24th July - take bivvy/camping gear and stay out Sunday night as well? Work our way back down the coast and stop nearer to home: The Naze, or Mersea, maybe?

Re: ACME Miscellany
« Reply #4599 on: 19 June, 2021, 07:39:46 pm »
 :facepalm: I've broken another toe!