Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => On The Road => Topic started by: Zipperhead on 28 April, 2008, 10:35:31 pm
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I thought I would do a little bit of counting. On my daily journey from the suburbs to the City of London I see a variety of cyclists. Because I tend to vary my journey times I don't often see the same cyclists (except for the lady on the Brompton with the red ***k me shoes)
On some days, when I could be bothered (generally when it was dry so that I could relax a little), I started counting the cyclists that I saw going through red lights, but only those who very clearly went all the way through a junction when I could see that the light was red for them.
Then I counted whether they were wearing a helmet or not.
Here's what I got (sorry, couldn't figure out tables). On 9 days, I counted a total of 130 RLJ's. Of those 110 were wearing helmets and 20 were not wearing helmets.
Whether that says anything about RLJ's and/or helmet wearing I don't know.
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Try a control count of just everyone... and then a count of silly cyclists wearing hiviz.
I content that magic hats and vests of protection (+2) give the rider a big sense that they're protected, so they act dumb in a risk-compensation way. Betcha they'd say that riding without their PPE is dangerous, while totally failing to see the irony in their RLJing behaviour.
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Interesting. But you need to do a check of what proportion of all cyclists on the route wear helmets generally.
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Interesting. But you need to do a check of what proportion of all cyclists on the route wear helmets generally.
Well, my simple maths makes the proportions above helmet wearing RLJ'ers to non helmet wearing RLJ'ers about 5.5:1
Although helmet wearing is high in the capital, it's not at the 80% level by a looong way.
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Interesting. But you need to do a check of what proportion of all cyclists on the route wear helmets generally.
Well, my simple maths makes the proportions above helmet wearing RLJ'ers to non helmet wearing RLJ'ers about 5.5:1
Although helmet wearing is high in the capital, it's not at the 80% level by a looong way.
Post the numbers, and it sounds like a chi squared test is probably what you need.
..d
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Interesting. But you need to do a check of what proportion of all cyclists on the route wear helmets generally.
Well, my simple maths makes the proportions above helmet wearing RLJ'ers to non helmet wearing RLJ'ers about 5.5:1
Although helmet wearing is high in the capital, it's not at the 80% level by a looong way.
it is getting towards that on my morning trip across Hyde Park (was about 75% of 150 or so last time I CBA to count). this can't be the first post of its kind on yacf can it?
how about a "cooler" for anyone who posts pro or anti-helmet claptrap more than so many times? ;D
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Post the numbers, and it sounds like a chi squared test is probably what you need.
Wouldn't I need to count four values to do that? Keeping track of two and cycling without crashing was pushing my mental boundaries.
I think I'll go back to singing as I cycle.
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Interesting. But you need to do a check of what proportion of all cyclists on the route wear helmets generally.
Well, my simple maths makes the proportions above helmet wearing RLJ'ers to non helmet wearing RLJ'ers about 5.5:1
Although helmet wearing is high in the capital, it's not at the 80% level by a looong way.
it is getting towards that on my morning trip across Hyde Park (was about 75% of 150 or so last time I CBA to count). this can't be the first post of its kind on yacf can it?
how about a "cooler" for anyone who posts pro or anti-helmet claptrap more than so many times? ;D
Define "claptrap" ;D ;D
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how about a "cooler" for anyone who posts pro or anti-helmet claptrap more than so many times? ;D
What in my post was pro or anti helmets? ;D
I merely posted some numbers from my own observations.
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Post the numbers, and it sounds like a chi squared test is probably what you need.
Wouldn't I need to count four values to do that? Keeping track of two and cycling without crashing was pushing my mental boundaries.
I think I'll go back to singing as I cycle.
You have two criteria. Potty on head/ no potty on head. Jump/wait at red lights.
So if you are counting those who wait at RL vs those who jump, and counting the number of helmet wearers waiting/jumping it is possible for the more statistically inclined to calculate the significance of your observations.
..d
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<snip> ...and then a count of silly cyclists wearing hiviz. <snip>
Can't speak for town riding these days, don't do very much of it, but hi-viz jackets on country lanes are very useful indeed. You wouldn't believe how easily a cyclist or even a horse and rider can blend in, to the point of near invisibility, into a background of hedgerow in any weather conditions from utterly foul to the brightest of summer sun.
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<snip> ...and then a count of silly cyclists wearing hiviz. <snip>
Can't speak for town riding these days, don't do very much of it, but hi-viz jackets on country lanes are very useful indeed. You wouldn't believe how easily a cyclist or even a horse and rider can blend in, to the point of near invisibility, into a background of hedgerow in any weather conditions from utterly foul to the brightest of summer sun.
It is amazing how many people just bash on regardless, even when they cannot see the road ahead to be clear.
..d
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Well, on the subject of helmets, Baby G juts got a beautiful one to commute with daddy... She loves it!
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Try a control count of just everyone... and then a count of silly cyclists wearing hiviz.
I content that magic hats and vests of protection (+2) give the rider a big sense that they're protected, so they act dumb in a risk-compensation way. Betcha they'd say that riding without their PPE is dangerous, while totally failing to see the irony in their RLJing behaviour.
+1
Hiviz is a waste of time, IMO. Cyclecraft will have an order of magnitude more effect on your safety.
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You wouldn't believe how easily a cyclist or even a horse and rider can blend in, to the point of near invisibility, into a background of hedgerow in any weather conditions from utterly foul to the brightest of summer sun.
It is amazing how many people just bash on regardless, even when they cannot see the road ahead to be clear.
Oh well said sir.
(p.s. Do we think silver/grey/green cars are a good idea on the safety front?)
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Here's some more anecdotal evidence. I my own trials with helmets and high viz garb I suffer no more and no fewer near misses and hits when using such equipment. Didn't make any difference to me.
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Look away MV, I've used the G word...
Hiviz is a waste of time, IMO. Cyclecraft will have an order of magnitude more effect on your safety.
I have a red jacket, a black gilet and a blue jacket. None of them are hi-viz but all of them have reflective piping/patches on them.
[EDIT]
London commuter +
Helmet wearer -
RLJ -
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Post the numbers, and it sounds like a chi squared test is probably what you need.
Wouldn't I need to count four values to do that? Keeping track of two and cycling without crashing was pushing my mental boundaries.
I think I'll go back to singing as I cycle.
You could get four of those clicky county things that councils use for traffic surveys and zip tie them to your handlebars.
Jules
London commuter +
Helmet wearer -
RLJ -
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You wouldn't believe how easily a cyclist or even a horse and rider can blend in, to the point of near invisibility, into a background of hedgerow in any weather conditions from utterly foul to the brightest of summer sun.
It is amazing how many people just bash on regardless, even when they cannot see the road ahead to be clear.
Oh well said sir.
(p.s. Do we think silver/grey/green cars are a good idea on the safety front?)
Plainly, all cars should be painted hi-vis with reflective details & the drivers and passengers should wear polystyrene caps :thumbsup:
And as for pedestrians... ;)
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how about a "cooler" for anyone who posts pro or anti-helmet claptrap more than so many times? ;D
What in my post was pro or anti helmets? ;D
did I say it was pro or anti? however, if you are going to put forward an observation which seems to suggest (in a later post) that helmet wearers are more likely to RLJ than non; please back it up with some figures about what the control level of helmet wearing is, that's all.
Do you honestly think anybody who RLJ's thinks "I'll be OK just blindly riding through this red because if a bendy bus broadsides me I'll be protected by my magic Giro Talisman"?
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(p.s. Do we think silver/grey/green cars are a good idea on the safety front?)
I have real trouble seeing silver and grey cars when it's raining. To the point where I almost turned right in front of one when it was raining heavily and the car in question didn't have its lights on. Of course SMIDSY wouldn't have much cachet when you're under the front wheels of a Ford Mondeo. Luckily I saw it at the last minute and managed to stop.
So I can, anecdotally see the point of a jacket that contrasts with your surroundings, but that can be a black, red or blue jacket. It doesn't have to be bright neon.
My stock answer to "where is you hi viz" questions is the above anecdote. Most car drivers don't like the idea of their "personality extension" being hi viz, though! :)
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Most car drivers don't like the idea of their "personality extension" being hi viz, though! :)
Unless they drive a Focus ST!!!
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I thought I would do a little bit of counting. On my daily journey from the suburbs to the City of London I see a variety of cyclists. Because I tend to vary my journey times I don't often see the same cyclists (except for the lady on the Brompton with the red ***k me shoes)
On some days, when I could be bothered (generally when it was dry so that I could relax a little), I started counting the cyclists that I saw going through red lights, but only those who very clearly went all the way through a junction when I could see that the light was red for them.
Then I counted whether they were wearing a helmet or not.
Here's what I got (sorry, couldn't figure out tables). On 9 days, I counted a total of 130 RLJ's. Of those 110 were wearing helmets and 20 were not wearing helmets.
Whether that says anything about RLJ's and/or helmet wearing I don't know.
As others have said it's more anecdotal than statistical.
But, far more importantly, where do you see the lady on the Brompton?
And should I change my commute route/time?
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One of the problems in this city, with so much construction work going on is that there are a lot of contruction workers wearing hi-viz garments walking around on the pavement. That itself is not a problem but seeing a hi-viz at a distance is easy to assume it's a worker on the pavement as that is what is seen most often. Close up at cyclists are easier to spot but as are cyclists wearing other coloured clothing. Drivers fail to see cyclists because they don't expect to see them, not because cyclists are invisible. Drivers do not look properly.
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did I say it was pro or anti? however, if you are going to put forward an observation which seems to suggest (in a later post) that helmet wearers are more likely to RLJ than non; please back it up with some figures about what the control level of helmet wearing is, that's all.
I'd love to get some control figures, but I apart from my notso fllippant point about not being being able to mentally keep track of four nubmers and cycle safely, I don't think I could get accurate figures. I would be needing to keep track of which non-rlj'ers I had already counted. It's easier with the rlj'ers, there are fewer of them.
If I were to do it seriously (as opposed to passing the time as I cycle to work), I think I would have to pick a nice big junction and spend an hour every morning and evening counting the cyclists.
Do you honestly think anybody who RLJ's thinks "I'll be OK just blindly riding through this red because if a bendy bus broadsides me I'll be protected by my magic Giro Talisman"?
No, I honestly think that the rlj'ers *don't* think about the consequences of their actions, rather like the idiot travelling too fast round a blind bend who collided with me last night.
Whenever I am overtaking someone that I've previously seen rlj I give them a wide berth in the expectation that they are likely to do something stupid. Such as the one last week who decided to cross two lanes of traffic without bothering to look first. Had I not given him extra room to start with the muppet would have taken us both out.
Graham
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Any thread started by Graham and titled helmets shouls surely be in not work safe
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If I were to do it seriously (as opposed to passing the time as I cycle to work), I think I would have to pick a nice big junction and spend an hour every morning and evening counting the cyclists.
I often see some people at the Chelsea Bridge / Chelsea Embankment crossroads who must be doing some kind of traffic monitoring. Hi-viz jackets (it must be dangerous standing on the pavement) and clipboards but no idea what they're actually looking out for. I'll stop and ask if ICBA next time.
And RLJ rates will be different at different junctions. Not many people try and jump the lights on Millbank/Grosvenor Road crossing Vauxhall Bridge Road, but they all stream through the lights by the South end of Royal Hospital Road or Lupus St.
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Plainly, all cars should be painted hi-vis with reflective details & the drivers and passengers should wear polystyrene caps :thumbsup: ;)
But how would all those poor innocent motorists know when to slow down to less than the speed limit rather than overtake a police car that looked like all the cicilians? :'( :demon: