Home energy saving tips /ideas...

[FifeingEejit]

Oh and water tank? This place was built in the mid-90s, DHW from gas from day 1...
Tame plumber needed...

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[iandusud]

Going back to the original question is it being asked from a money saving point of view or from being a "responsible citizen in the face of the climate emergency" point of view?
From a money saving POV I think adding insulation gives the best return on investment. I've just added 170mm to the 100mm of insulation in our loft. The effect of this was immediately noticeable as witnessed at the meal table the following day when our daughter said "I was hot in bed last night" and my wife replies "so was I", and then the penny dropped and my wife said "could that be anything to do with the extra loft insulation"? (This was despite a drop in overnight temperature outside). Going up into the loft to do some finishing off the the temperature differential is noticeably bigger.
From a "responsible citizen in the face of the climate emergency" POV I think anything and everything individuals do is worthwhile, not only because they add up but also because the involve a change of mindset that challenges others.
My wife and I got rid of our car over a year ago, initially as an experiment to see how we would get on, and we've never looked back. We cycle almost everywhere or take the train for longer journeys. We are have an ASHP installed in the next few weeks to replace our old gas boiler. As it is our thermostat is set at 16C most of the time and turned up to 18C in the evenings. We don't need more. We don't heat our bedroom unless temperatures drop significantly outside.
I hear and understand and agree with the argument that it's the big polluters who need to change their behaviour if we are to see the sort of wholesale change that we need, but I also believe that we all have a personal responsibility to do the right thing, and if there is a big enough ground swell governments will capitulate - how do you think we ended up with Brexit?

[Polar Bear]

I wi be interested to hear how you get on with your ASHP.  Our boiler works fine for now and we only have the central heating on for 3 hours in the evening (not consecutive) but we'd like to ditch gas for heating if at all possible. 

I agree on insulation:  when I did the loft a few years back the effect was astounding but this was part of works to install DG, replace the roof, etc.  I have been doing internal wall insulation on our solid walls and, as we have cavities under our suspended wooden floors downstairs, insulating under floors one room at a time.  Each time we do a room the effect is obvious.

I have one downstairs room left to do but the pandemic and availability of sighted assistants as well as building supplies stopped that happening this year.  Roll on 2022...

We are also looking at a six panel pv array which is the best we can do on our ne/sw alighned victoriana mid-terrace.

[phantasmagoriana]

Ha our house is 58/52 currently

My flat's 85/78 according to the home report we had done last month. We have single-glazed sash windows and no insulation, so I'm not really sure what they base it on. We seem to get lots of points for having TRVs and LED bulbs...

[aidan.f]

I'm planning underfloor insulation as part of living room refurb. PB Any practical tips please?

[mrcharly-YHT]

I'm planning underfloor insulation as part of living room refurb. PB Any practical tips please?

I just followed the insulation material company's instructions. Used sheep wool insulation (non-itchy, environmentally sound, but does smell of sheep) and membrane. Stapled membrane to beams, insulation above, taped all seams.

The room doesn't have any heating but isn't hugely cooler than the rest of the house. If we use it in winter we light the solid fuel stove in there.

[iandusud]

I wi be interested to hear how you get on with your ASHP.  Our boiler works fine for now and we only have the central heating on for 3 hours in the evening (not consecutive) but we'd like to ditch gas for heating if at all possible. 

I agree on insulation:  when I did the loft a few years back the effect was astounding but this was part of works to install DG, replace the roof, etc.  I have been doing internal wall insulation on our solid walls and, as we have cavities under our suspended wooden floors downstairs, insulating under floors one room at a time.  Each time we do a room the effect is obvious.

I have one downstairs room left to do but the pandemic and availability of sighted assistants as well as building supplies stopped that happening this year.  Roll on 2022...

We are also looking at a six panel pv array which is the best we can do on our ne/sw alighned victoriana mid-terrace.

I'll be happy to report back after this winter. Our decision to install ASHP is primarily in an effort to further reduce our carbon footprint. Having got rid of the car (which is generally the biggest element in a household CF) the next biggest emitter of CO2 was our gas CH, particularly as we have a very old gas boiler which must be very inefficient. Hopefully this means that we won't notice too much of an increase in our energy bills. We are also taking advantage of the Renewable Heating Incentive to subsidise the cost before it is replaced with the grant being introduced next year, which is less interesting financially despite the big song and dance the chancellor made about it!
Our next step will almost certainly be solar panels but we'll have to wait on that one for now (we fitted them to our last house and were very happy with them, even if they cost a lot more in those days). Hopefully the government will do something to incentivise SPs soon, as opposed to the retrograde steps they have taken on this front. Solar energy is plentiful and free. I constantly hear the argument that they only produce electricity during the day, which is valid, but it would be easy to have a cheaper daytime tariff for electricity if there is a surplus, getting people to charge their cars on cheap rate for example as well as the benefit to businesses that run 9-5 etc. I can see no reason why all new builds should not have to have SPs fitted as standard. The extra cost on the price of a new build would be peanuts. Sorry for the rant. 

[MikeFromLFE]

Because we were contacted by our local council, due to Mrs M receiving a 'qualifying benefit', it seems we are eligible for the latest iteration of the Green Homes Grant.
Leicestershire County Council have subcontracted this to Eon.
Eon sent one of their subcontracted assessors to do the requisite Home Energy Survey so we'd get an EPC (It seems we are D).
Eon subcontract the works to their subcontractors (who presumably have subcontractors)

The assessor confessed to being a dissatisfied energy salesman who'd retrained online during the lockdown to be an energy assessor, Eon being the second company he'd worked with so far. 

On the plus side - he did finally settle my very longstanding question about the walls on the main part of our house as being solid brick (they look as though they ought to be cavity, but are too old to be).

However, he couldn't assess out loft insulation as it was partly boarded "can't see it - can't assess it" (I think it's 'pretty good' but he's supposed to be the expert).
There's no insulation in the ceiling of our extension - I think this is a major issue, but he couldn't assess it because he couldn't get to see what's there (it's a tiny hatch - yes you could get through it, but it ain't easy).
He dismissed 'Smart Heating Controls' on his experience with Hive which he admitted he didn't really understand. He didn't even consider the cavity wall of the extension.
He waxed lyrical about PV Solar panels (based on the fact he'd sold them when they first came out) but then let out that it only Thermal Solar available on the scheme.
So - not impressed.

I'm waiting for the report, which based on what he was saying will suggest:
1) Underfloor insulation (we have suspended wooden floors)  - I'm not taking up vast areas of expensive, expensively laid, laminate flooring unless they reinstate it (which they won't)
2) External Wall Insulation - which I'm tempted to go for if it's offered
3) Solar Thermal Panels - which I'd consider IF they offer a system which will work with my 3 year old combi-boiler AND they'll put the tank in the loft.
4) I'm hoping that the Smart Heating Controls make an appearance because the electronic radiator valves are starting to show their age and I'd rather Boris pays for a Tada system than me (I live in hope).
5) I'm hopeful that the cavity wall on the extension does get included because I'm pretty sure it's not insulated - it's a small area, but if they won't consider the ceiling, the walls will be worth doing.

I await the report and a visit from a 'Technical Surveyor'

[mrcharly-YHT]

We have a hive system.
Main benefits; I can see the current temperature. We have turned down the heat settings (mornings and evenings) considerably, on finding that we were 'comfortable' when the hallway was at 17. So the evening and morning CH boost is now at 17 - if we want it warmer, we turn it up for an hour or two.

It is very easy to control the CH by turning up the temperature.

This can be done from phone app or from the sensor device. The sensor is battery powered and small, so it is easy to move into another room if we want the temp in that room to drive the heating.

[robgul]

We have a hive system.
Main benefits; I can see the current temperature. We have turned down the heat settings (mornings and evenings) considerably, on finding that we were 'comfortable' when the hallway was at 17. So the evening and morning CH boost is now at 17 - if we want it warmer, we turn it up for an hour or two.

It is very easy to control the CH by turning up the temperature.

This can be done from phone app or from the sensor device. The sensor is battery powered and small, so it is easy to move into another room if we want the temp in that room to drive the heating.

Another vote for Hive - we've had it for about 5 years (3.5 with a Combi boiler and 1.5 with a pressurised boiler + tank system) - excellent controls and boost option etc . . .  and we've added light bulbs and plug/sockets for timing various things.   Being able to switch stuff on/off from anywhere in the world using the phone is pretty useful - e.g. turning on heating when we're on the way home (ditto the coffee machine  ,  as I've mentioned before) 

[mrcharly-YHT]

We have a hive system.
Main benefits; I can see the current temperature. We have turned down the heat settings (mornings and evenings) considerably, on finding that we were 'comfortable' when the hallway was at 17. So the evening and morning CH boost is now at 17 - if we want it warmer, we turn it up for an hour or two.

It is very easy to control the CH by turning up the temperature.

This can be done from phone app or from the sensor device. The sensor is battery powered and small, so it is easy to move into another room if we want the temp in that room to drive the heating.

Another vote for Hive - we've had it for about 5 years (3.5 with a Combi boiler and 1.5 with a pressurised boiler + tank system) - excellent controls and boost option etc . . .  and we've added light bulbs and plug/sockets for timing various things.   Being able to switch stuff on/off from anywhere in the world using the phone is pretty useful - e.g. turning on heating when we're on the way home (ditto the coffee machine  ,  as I've mentioned before)

Yeah, I forgot that one.
I think that we save considerable diesel through being able to turn up the heating when we need it, instead of heating an empty house. Even the "brr, it is cold this morning, turn the heating on early" option from bed.

[Mrs Pingu]

I see that robots for applying expanding foam under your floorboards are now a thing. Can't see how that is good from a rot perspective though ..

[mrcharly-YHT]

I see that robots for applying expanding foam under your floorboards are now a thing. Can't see how that is good from a rot perspective though ..

That is bonkers.

[Polar Bear]

I see that robots for applying expanding foam under your floorboards are now a thing. Can't see how that is good from a rot perspective though ..

I suppose the devil is in the detail.  Surely there is some form of moisture management within the chemical cocktail?

[aidan.f]

From wot I have read a vapour barrier is used on the warm side under the floor covering. Wool is recommended for older structures.

[robgul]

Hot Water Circuit?

Combi-Boilers mean the hot water circuit triggers the heating of the water by flow detection (often set far too high... well mine is can be filling a 1l pan in 2seconds before its on), so the towel rad needs to be on the heating circuit.
But if you have a room thermostat controlling when it's on and off, you're only getting warm towels when your chosen room is cold.
Room temp sensing, Boiler controlling TRVs would help I suppose.

I thought if you had a thermostatic radiator valves, you had to have at least one radiator in the house without one, just in case the boiler is fired up, but the radiators are doing nothing. In the central heating systems I've setup we always did this with the bathroom radiator.

J

That is what I thought too... my one has a TRV, so far no boiler explosion... thankfully.
I've got that TRV cranked right up and the bathrooms lucky to get over 20c, not that I have any idea what max on the TRV equates to in reality.

I've currently got a multimeter, thermocouple, notepad and some dials attached to boiler pipes
Return was 5c below output, but the boiler does have a deliberately inefficient start up mode that gets the internal temperature up to 80

Modern systems have a bypass valve that opens a bit to let some water through if all the radiators are shut off. https://www.bes.co.uk/heating-ventilation/central-heating/valves/bypass/

As long as some water flows through the boiler, all of it will be at close to the same temperature and it will shut off when hot without damage. If no water flows, part of it can boil before the sensor notices that it's got too hot.

That would explain it.

What I do love is that they tell you that should should carry out improvements listed on your EPC in the order they are recommended. So for us that would be:

Which to me should be done based on bang for buck and least disruption:
1. LED lighting
2. Cavity wall
Room in roof/flat roof makes sense but I'm not planning to get it done until the flat roof actually needs replacing (although I might change my mind once we've actually experienced a winter in this house)
Floor insulation - for the amount of upheaval that will generate you can get stuffed for the sake of £71/yr. Maybe if we ever get new carpets.
Solar water heating - the gas CH boiler was brand new in December so doesn't make sense to me to ditch that already, from an emissions caused by manufacturing POV.
Solar PV - yes it's expensive but it would make up for having a crappy electric hob and shower (despite having a combi boiler)

Yeah, I've had a nosey at the neighbours houses in the EPC database that are basically the same, interesting how different they all are.
Some have the obligatory "Wind Turbine" in the list, others don't despite being more efficient and clearly not included by the assessor

So with mine starting on 72/70 and a potential of 87/87
1) Floor insulation, 73/73 saves 45 quid a year
2) Draughtproofing, 74/74 saves 22 quid a year
3) Solar Water Heating, 76/76 - 28 quid
4) 2.5kWp Solar PV, 87/87 - 318 quid

Now... correct me if I'm being deluded here, but the 10 point increase from Solar PV and saving of £318 a year is by far the most obvious one to do first.
I mean if I start at 72/70 that's up to 82/80ish. I'd probably go for something a bit bigger with the aim of adding batteries when affordability is reached, after all half the year I cook when it's dark.

My assumption is due to the only draughts I can find being from the window vents that I did the draught proofing when I swapped the crap folding doors for a uPVC door between kitchen and sunporch.
Then again the sunporch is in the floor space and is unheated for now I'll take the hit of running a 1.5kw electric heater just before tea this winter and work out how to minimize loss from windows later, the wee brother just has to turn up with the stuff he's got sitting in his garage.

I need to lift a carpet to see if I can find a way of seeing under the floor too.


What's also interesting is there's no mention of low power lighting... the house was entirely lit with hallogen and CFLs for an EPC written September last year that's a bit shit so I guess the guides haven't been updated for the assessors to cover that.


The solar water interests me, the black painted garage door was too hot to touch before I shoved a layer of silver bubble wrap on the back, downside is the garage doesn't get so warm in winter, though it loses it anyway.  The front rooms are toasty on sunny days and balanced with the back rooms on the north on not so sunny days.

Seems to me the most appropriate approach would be to get PV in first with space left to get Solar Heating added later, that way I could use a tank and immersion heater and use that to heat the water during the day, downside being on days when the sun doesn't bother.

Attic space seems handy, and this house wasn't built with putting a room in the roof in mind. (Hall too narrow for stairs, space between roof trusses to wander around about 2 hall widths)

That or the upheaval of adapting the house such that an ASHP has a chance of doing its job



Oh I found this for TRVs
0 = Off
* = 7°C
1 = 10°C
2 = 15°C
3 = 20°C
4 = 25°C
5 = 30°C

that'll help me

although the rads are still toasty... this is going to be a late night

Something that my brain can't quite comprehend is how TRVs which are (obviously) next to the heated radiator can decide/understand how warm the room is - with the notional numbered settings - the heat from the nearby radiator must affect the sensor?   (Physics wasn't my strong suit at school!)

I've been fiddling with trying to balance our radiators for a couple of days and it does seem to be an inexact science - with probably a bit of guesswork and luck thrown in.  I'm using a multimeter with a temperture probe and adjusting lockshield valves.

[Frank9755]

Something that my brain can't quite comprehend is how TRVs which are (obviously) next to the heated radiator can decide/understand how warm the room is - with the notional numbered settings - the heat from the nearby radiator must affect the sensor?   (Physics wasn't my strong suit at school!)

I've been fiddling with trying to balance our radiators for a couple of days and it does seem to be an inexact science - with probably a bit of guesswork and luck thrown in.  I'm using a multimeter with a temperture probe and adjusting lockshield valves.

I was thinking about this yesterday and decided that they can only give relative rather than absolute adjustments.  So they can make a room warmer relative to other rooms, by opening the valve a bit more, or cooler. 

What they can't do - which is what I was wanting to think they could - is keep the room I am working in at XX degrees regardless of the rest of the house.

As I see it, they are not thermostats.

[mrcharly-YHT]

Something that my brain can't quite comprehend is how TRVs which are (obviously) next to the heated radiator can decide/understand how warm the room is - with the notional numbered settings - the heat from the nearby radiator must affect the sensor?   (Physics wasn't my strong suit at school!)

I've been fiddling with trying to balance our radiators for a couple of days and it does seem to be an inexact science - with probably a bit of guesswork and luck thrown in.  I'm using a multimeter with a temperture probe and adjusting lockshield valves.

I was thinking about this yesterday and decided that they can only give relative rather than absolute adjustments.  So they can make a room warmer relative to other rooms, by opening the valve a bit more, or cooler. 

What they can't do - which is what I was wanting to think they could - is keep the room I am working in at XX degrees regardless of the rest of the house.

As I see it, they are not thermostats.

All they can do it respond to the temperature of the air near your Rad. There is no intelligence in the TRV.

Assuming your boiler/heat source has the power to bring all rads up to the max water temperature (usually below 65C), then a TRV fully open will permit the water the keep flowing. Any TRV setting below that just starts restricting the water flow when the room is cold. They are affected by the temperature of the water; if the rads are undersized for the room, the TRV will just stay open until the room heats up.

Once a rad is at the same temperature as the boiler water, you may as well shut down the water flow through the rad anyway.

[grams]

The cooler the air in a room is, the longer it will take for the TRV to heat up enough to switch off, and it will cool down quicker and switch back on sooner. So the radiator output will be a function of room temperature, and it should reach a stable state where room temperature stays in a certain band.

[rogerzilla]

With the size of rads fitted by most builders, you need a circulating temp of > 80 deg C (which makes a condensing boiler only partially condensing).  Also, the 63 deg C circulating temp used to measure boiler efficiency is totally useless for heating a hot water cylinder to 60 deg C.  It's a bit of a con.

[phantasmagoriana]

Has anyone used the Hive TRVs? We have a Hive thermostat, but I'm curious to see whether the TRVs would make a difference.

[robgul]

Has anyone used the Hive TRVs? We have a Hive thermostat, but I'm curious to see whether the TRVs would make a difference.

Yes - and no - I bought one to see whether the combination of being able to time and control temperature in rooms not used much would work.  Complete rubbish - they simply do not work - if you look at the Hive Forum there are endless posts about the software not being for purpose.  The other "undocumented feature" is that they can only be set/scheduled etc from the Hive app and not for the Hive PC access (that being my preferred option - about 3 hours of trying to get the PC to recognise the valves . . .  and then the so-called helpdesk told me that it was app only)

The valve went back for a refund - shame as if it had worked I'd have bought 2 or 3 more to use with rooms that have timed or infrequent use.

What I did get instead was a Eqiva Model N valve that is programmable for time - that works in the room that's used for about an hour a day (my wife, so I'm told? - does yoga in there each afternoon) - the idea is that the valve opens the rad about 30 minutes ahead of time and if the remainder of the house is calling for heat then that room gets some heat - and it then closes the rad about 10 minutes before the room becomes unused again.   The valve is about £20 or a bit more from Amazon (I bought mine from Sotel in Germany, 3 or 4 days delivery with no problems)

[Diver300]

Something that my brain can't quite comprehend is how TRVs which are (obviously) next to the heated radiator can decide/understand how warm the room is - with the notional numbered settings - the heat from the nearby radiator must affect the sensor?   (Physics wasn't my strong suit at school!)

There will be a big effect from the radiator. The TRVs are normally low down, so the hot air rising from the radiator* will mean that the bottom of the radiator and the TRV will be generally in room air, which will reduce the effect somewhat. The physical construction of the TRV will be such the sensitivity to air temperature will be as much as possible, and radiation from the radiator and conduction from the pipe will be minimised.

The heat from the radiator will tend to mean that the TRV will need several degrees of room temperature change to go from fully on to fully off, so that will reduce their effectiveness a bit. Perhaps a valve will be fully on with the room at 15 °C and the radiator fully hot, and will be fully off with the room at 25 °C and the radiator cold. The gap between those numbers is a guess, and TRVs may be better than that. For a standard TRV, where will have to be a few degrees difference to go from open to cold, even ignoring the heating from the radiator.

That doesn't mean that TRVs are useless, as they will reduce the heating in hotter rooms quite effectively, just not perfectly.

Without TRVs, and with a typical water temperature of 60 °C, a radiator in a room at 25 °C will put out 80% as much heat as it would into a room at 15 °C, so the TRV is reducing the heat around 5 times as fast.

Electronic TRVs probably compensate for the heating from the radiator. I don't know for sure, but I have been very impressed with the Honeywell Evohome system, and it seems to control very well. The system obviously knows if the radiator is on or not, so it can measure the fairly fast temperature rise that the TRV will see when the radiator turns on, and compensate for that rise. It only needs software. The mechanical separation between the temperature sensor and the valve is larger in an electronic TRV than in a conventional one. Also the valve can be driven fully open to fully closed when the computer says so, without needed to heat from the room to melt the wax in the operating element, so it can be a more precise control.

* House radiators don't radiate much. If they did, they would be black to improve radiation. House radiators put heat into the room by conduction / convection.

[Mrs Pingu]

Well, I just stuck my head down through the hatch under the front door. That was interesting. Plenty crawl space so potentially the ability to insulate the floor from below. And install cat5 cable if needed.
The photo below is of the wall directly under the front door, it's north facing. It appears to be wearing a fur coat of efflorescence. It doesn't exactly make me feel that getting cavity wall insulation would be a good idea, although that's just what I can see from the hatch, I didn't go having a crawl about. Also, IANA cavity wall insulation surveyor.
IMG_20211106_155422 by The Pingus, on Flickr

This photo shows what I assume is a clay demijohn and then on closer inspection it looks like someone's put a bagged up floor cleaning device or something under there. 
IMG_20211106_155031 by The Pingus, on Flickr

Further inspection some time...

[rogerzilla]

Hypocaust ftw