Cups - aargh!

[arabella]

:
A good few years ago, I realised that even modern cook books still use eggs as they were in the 1950s, where as the eggs in my store are modern large size. I only managed to make decent choux pastry when I wrote on the recipe in red pen "not this much egg" and did it by perceived texture not number of eggs.
Same sort of thing with victoria sponge.
:

For victoria sponge, first weigh your eggs. 
Then use the same weight for your other ingredients.
then it doesn't matter what your eggs weigh.

[Flite]

Thanks, I had worked that one out!

[Slave To The Viking]

Many moons ago, a USAnian, name of Fannie Merritt Farmer, realised she knew nothing about cooking, and took herself to Boston Cookery School. She had no flair for it, but she took to the newly arrived, even newer fangled measuring cups, from *hushed tones* Europe, which were part of the new, scientific, nutritional approach to cooking, rather than "a pinch of that, a bit of this". The point of cups was ease and precision, however daft that seems now.

She aced the course (because she cooked like a lab technician, not a chef), and stayed on as a teacher. Then became school principal. Then wrote a spectacularly influential cookbook, espousing the use of cups. She was dubbed "the Mother of Level Measures", and the cookbook is still in print, over 100 years later.

So generations of USAnian cooks have been taught that cups are the way to do it. Silly opinions about scales being a terrible faff are back-formed from the well established use of the less accurate volumetric measure - "if it's what we already do, then it must have some worth, why change?" sort of thing.

It's infuriating for those of use who plonk a bowl on the scales and weigh everything into it, but this a nation that can't admit that the 2nd Amendment was to allow a volunteer police force to arm itself and chase down escaping slaves hundreds of years ago, not to use lethal force against unarmed passersby in the 21st century...so weighing flour in the kitchen has no chance.

[Kim]

It's infuriating for those of use who plonk a bowl on the scales and weigh everything into it, but this a nation that can't admit that the 2nd Amendment was to allow a volunteer police force to arm itself and chase down escaping slaves hundreds of years ago, not to use lethal force against unarmed passersby in the 21st century...so weighing flour in the kitchen has no chance.

I'll just leave this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYqfVE-fykk

[citoyen]

Measuring cups make sense for liquid ingredients.

I weigh liquids. 1L = 1kg. Simples. (A few grams either way doesn’t matter and is no less precise than measuring liquids using cups.)

Except oil - but then it’s rare that recipes involve more than spoonable quantities of oil.

[T42]

Many moons ago, a USAnian, name of Fannie Merritt Farmer, realised she knew nothing about cooking...

The big attraction of cups was also that, no matter the size of the cup, the ingredients were always in the right proportions.  You were pretty certain to have a cup in your little house on the prairie, but less likely to have schlepped a set of scales with you.  The measures didn't have to be standardized either.

[FifeingEejit]

I measure rice in High 5 ladles, it's rather convenient as I know 3 is a decent sized portion and needs 1 Ikea plastic cup of water in the rice cooker.

Then I noticed the ladle has changed in my most recent tub from the yellow thing to a blue cup, i am yet to compare volume as I have plenty of the yellow ones.

[fimm]

I have recipes inherited from my Scottish grandmother where the measurements are a mixture of cups and ounces.

[citoyen]

I measure rice in High 5 ladles, it's rather convenient as I know 3 is a decent sized portion and needs 1 Ikea plastic cup of water in the rice cooker.

Then I noticed the ladle has changed in my most recent tub from the yellow thing to a blue cup, i am yet to compare volume as I have plenty of the yellow ones.

Rice is the one thing I do measure by volume - using a 1:2 ratio of rice to water. I don't need to know the volume of the cup - it's the ratio that's important, so I just have to use the same receptacle to measure both rice and water.

Specifically, I use my son's nice coffee cup, which I have discovered through trial and error gives the perfect amount of cooked rice for three people.

Of course, it might be different if you're using a rice cooker but I do it on the hob.

[Flite]

I make porridge by volume. One cup of Jumbo oats to one cup of water. Soak overnight, add one cup of milk then cook.
But this is variable - towards the bottom of the container the oats get finer/dustier so they are more dense, so need to add more water.  So ratios aren't 100% reliable.

[citoyen]

So ratios aren't 100% reliable.

True, but nor are weights for the same reasons.

[hellymedic]

Measuring cups make sense for liquid ingredients.

I weigh liquids. 1L = 1kg. Simples. (A few grams either way doesn’t matter and is no less precise than measuring liquids using cups.)

Except oil - but then it’s rare that recipes involve more than spoonable quantities of oil.

The pedant in me feels obliged to inform you that liquids containing significant quantities of dissolved sugar can be VERY dense,
Syrups, honey & jam should be weighed. (Look at the discrepancy between weight & volume of tomato ketchup - that's all sugar!

[Feanor]

When in the US, we bought a copy of the Ottolenghi Simple book as a present for our host.
It had been translated into cups/tblspns/tsps and Degrees Frankenstien for the US market.

For bread-making, it's regarded as essential to measure the fluid (water) as weight, in order to get the hydration correct.
Using a measuring-jug and doing it by volume is nowhere near good enough: you can be a really huge amount off.
By weight, you can get the water to within an gram, that's simply not possible in a jug.

It's enough to make the difference between 72 - 75 - 78 % hydration, and that is actually significant.

[rogerzilla]

A cup is half a pint, except USians don't have pints.  If they did, their pints would be 4/5 the size of our pints, since they have 32 fl oz per quart, not 40 fl oz per quart like we do.

[citoyen]

Measuring cups make sense for liquid ingredients.

I weigh liquids. 1L = 1kg. Simples. (A few grams either way doesn’t matter and is no less precise than measuring liquids using cups.)

Except oil - but then it’s rare that recipes involve more than spoonable quantities of oil.

The pedant in me feels obliged to inform you that liquids containing significant quantities of dissolved sugar can be VERY dense,
Syrups, honey & jam should be weighed. (Look at the discrancy between weight & volume of tomato ketchup - that's all sugar!

Fair point. I forgot about those. To be perfectly honest, I didn't really think it through.

But again, syrup/honey doesn't often feature in recipes in more than spoonable quantities. Likewise ketchup!

Bread-making is the main scenario where I weigh the liquid rather than measure it by volume. Not least because, as Feanor says, kitchen measuring jugs are notoriously inaccurate.

The other caveat with bread-making is that you have to know your flour - they vary a lot in how they behave for a given hydration level - but you can only learn that through trial and error. In any case, measuring the flour for your bread using cups is NOT the way to ensure predictable results.

[hellymedic]

Pyrex jugs are REALLY bad for measuring, but GREAT for making things you wish to pour, in the microwave.

Other measuring jugs are more accurate IME, though weighing's best for precision.

[SteveC]

For bread-making, it's regarded as essential to measure the fluid (water) as weight, in order to get the hydration correct.
Using a measuring-jug and doing it by volume is nowhere near good enough: you can be a really huge amount off.
By weight, you can get the water to within an gram, that's simply not possible in a jug.

It's enough to make the difference between 72 - 75 - 78 % hydration, and that is actually significant.

However, my bread recipe is American and uses cups 
But, having been using it regularly for over 30 years, I can feel when the texture is 'right'.
I must try to do some more methodical bread making sometime, but life is a bit busy for experimentation at the moment.

[Pickled Onion]

Pyrex jugs are REALLY bad for measuring, but GREAT for making things you wish to pour, in the microwave.

Other measuring jugs are more accurate IME, though weighing's best for precision.

That’s a good point, but the one thing Pyrex jugs are supremely shit at is pouring.

[hellymedic]

Pyrex jugs are REALLY bad for measuring, but GREAT for making things you wish to pour, in the microwave.

Other measuring jugs are more accurate IME, though weighing's best for precision.

That’s a good point, but the one thing Pyrex jugs are supremely shit at is pouring.

Their pouring performance IS poor but is still less hassle than spooning or ladling jam, fruit sauce or custard from a bowl, which would be the alternative...

[ian]

Pyrex jugs are REALLY bad for measuring, but GREAT for making things you wish to pour, in the microwave.

Other measuring jugs are more accurate IME, though weighing's best for precision.

That’s a good point, but the one thing Pyrex jugs are supremely shit at is pouring.

I've always pondered this – they've had many decades to perfect a jug that doesn't deposit a significant amount of its content on your hob or worktop when you attempt to pour.

[hellymedic]

[Slightly OT but…]

We were taught how to fashion jugs with spouts that poured well, in the Pottery classes at Art, at school.

You need a narrow, thin, sharp, pointed 'V', to 'cut off the drop'

Pyrex jugs have thick wide, round spouts…

One of my plastic measuring jugs is much better in this respect. It's also rather more accurate & precise BUT, being polythene, it's not too heat-resistant!

[Slave To The Viking]

When in the US, we bought a copy of the Ottolenghi Simple book as a present for our host.
It had been translated into cups/tblspns/tsps and Degrees Frankenstien for the US market.

For bread-making, it's regarded as essential to measure the fluid (water) as weight, in order to get the hydration correct.
Using a measuring-jug and doing it by volume is nowhere near good enough: you can be a really huge amount off.
By weight, you can get the water to within an gram, that's simply not possible in a jug.

It's enough to make the difference between 72 - 75 - 78 % hydration, and that is actually significant.

The idea that bread is extremely finicky and precise seems to be quite a recent innovation, given the impossibility of precision for the overwhelming majority of human history, and the fact that breadmaking is an ancient, ancient art.

I've made bread with cups, in aluminium cooking pots sat on the embers of the fire in a clearing in a tropical forest. When I first made bread I was a child, and used an old set of sprung dial scales and a Pyrex jug, working in pounds and ounces. Half an ounce of fresh yeast, on those scales?

And...well, does your flour and the hardness of your water match that used by whoever wrote the recipe, and is your oven's thermostat and humidity the same as theirs?

When I make a bag of flour's worth of bread (normal workaday bread), I routinely use a litre of water, as it's a nice round number. The recipe I started with would have been 900ml, but I've been tweaking and poking it for a while, and a litre works. But a bag of flour might be 1.49kg, or 1.55, or whatever - I weigh it out of curiosity but I never bother adjusting. And that's a 2 or 3% difference.

Precision has become a famous necessity of bread making, but it's maybe not a valid one.

[hellymedic]

I've not made bread recently and when I did I can't really remember measuring ingredients.
I think folk get a 'feel' for when a mix is too wet/too dry/too sticky and adjust accordingly.

Those who crave precision might not have developed this feel or are more particular than me...

[Feanor]

When in the US, we bought a copy of the Ottolenghi Simple book as a present for our host.
It had been translated into cups/tblspns/tsps and Degrees Frankenstien for the US market.

For bread-making, it's regarded as essential to measure the fluid (water) as weight, in order to get the hydration correct.
Using a measuring-jug and doing it by volume is nowhere near good enough: you can be a really huge amount off.
By weight, you can get the water to within an gram, that's simply not possible in a jug.

It's enough to make the difference between 72 - 75 - 78 % hydration, and that is actually significant.

The idea that bread is extremely finicky and precise seems to be quite a recent innovation, given the impossibility of precision for the overwhelming majority of human history, and the fact that breadmaking is an ancient, ancient art.

I've made bread with cups, in aluminium cooking pots sat on the embers of the fire in a clearing in a tropical forest. When I first made bread I was a child, and used an old set of sprung dial scales and a Pyrex jug, working in pounds and ounces. Half an ounce of fresh yeast, on those scales?

And...well, does your flour and the hardness of your water match that used by whoever wrote the recipe, and is your oven's thermostat and humidity the same as theirs?

When I make a bag of flour's worth of bread (normal workaday bread), I routinely use a litre of water, as it's a nice round number. The recipe I started with would have been 900ml, but I've been tweaking and poking it for a while, and a litre works. But a bag of flour might be 1.49kg, or 1.55, or whatever - I weigh it out of curiosity but I never bother adjusting. And that's a 2 or 3% difference.

Precision has become a famous necessity of bread making, but it's maybe not a valid one.

You are right in that absolute accuracy is not important, because it's a multivariant system.
But if you can maintain other variables reasonably constant, like the flour and oven, then the hydration becomes one of the primary variables.

So measuring the water by weight not volume allows you to control that, giving consistency better than the +/- 10cc or whatever you can get in a measuring jug.

It's about consistency and repeatability, not absolute values.
But yes, I agree you can get perfectly good results without going all Forkish about it, and we have done for hundreds of years.

[Pickled Onion]

Precision arises when you use a bread machine, you have to get the proportions exactly right at the start as there's little option for modification. Especially if you set it overnight on a timer.

When making by hand, you can gradually incorporate more flour as you knead until it feels right.