Bye Lance

[sg37409]

Lemond was a clean TdF winner. Who was the other one?

I was talking about post-Lemond.  Wiggins and Froome.

[spesh]

Lemond was a clean TdF winner. Who was the other one?

But he needed his bike cleaned up.

Ah yes, there are times when bib-shorts don't feel like such a good idea after all. 

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Wait a few years for the Sky stories to come out into the open. Who was the banned doctor that they used during a spectacular year?

[Karla]

Sastre?

[LEE]

Saw the BBC interview with Lance yesterday.  He's just never going to understand why people hate him is he?

He will always see it as "I was just levelling the playing field because everyone was cheating except me, plus I did loads of work for charity so actually I'm a bit of a hero".

Deep down, right to his core, he still thinks he's the victim in all this.  I don't think he'll ever really forgive the people he hurt/destroyed for pointing the finger at him.

With one casual statement he accused EVERY pro cyclist of that generation of being a drugs cheat, he didn't even pause for thought about what that meant to all those clean cyclists, denied a career.

He DID look a bit run down though.  He's acting tough but I think the strain is showing.

I assume that the financial impacts of coming clean and apologising totally are huge, but, if he did just apologise, to the Andreus and so on, just publicly say sorry for trying to destroy them, it would go a long way to salvaging some goodwill.

His PR people must be a frustrated team (Does Lance think he needs a PR team I wonder?  He really does need one).

[LMT]

Wait a few years for the Sky stories to come out into the open. Who was the banned doctor that they used during a spectacular year?

Geert Leinders, who worked for Team Sky on a freelance basis in 2011 & 2012. When did Wiggo win the TDF?

[LMT]

FWIW I'm going to reserve judgement on Lance until the CIRC report comes out.

[Hot Flatus]

He does have a point though.

When he entered the profession, it was a choice of dope or be spat out by your team. If you've sacrificed an education or vocational training to get there it isn't such an easy decision to make, especially when everybody around you is normalising doping, and especially also when doping (albeit less effective doping) had always been the norm for GT riders.

I think his comments are motivated by several factors. He has undoubtedly to be wary of exposing himself legally, but I suspect he may also be unwilling to be  hypocritical.  In a sense, given the context within which he operated, he comes out of this with more integrity than people like Landis, who's revelations were motivated purely by revenge and greed.

As for current riders? Who knows. Wiggins winning ride came straight after the Landis and Hamilton revelations and so, to an extent, he was doomed to be condemned. But he had a year of winning everything, followed by two years of sweet fa. Odd.   Froome? An unlikely future winner, if viewed prior to his startling Vuelta ride of 2011.

I can't believe that riders would decide to stop doping all by themselves, en masse, without any external impetus, and I can't see that there has been any external pressure.

[P Walsh]

But aren't Tour riders now a bit slower up the big climbs than 10 years ago? That's what I've heard. If so it suggests that they are (mostly) de-tuned.

[Hot Flatus]

The winners aren't slower

[rafletcher]

He does have a point though.

When he entered the profession, it was a choice of dope or be spat out by your team. If you've sacrificed an education or vocational training to get there it isn't such an easy decision to make, especially when everybody around you is normalising doping, and especially also when doping (albeit less effective doping) had always been the norm for GT riders.

I think his comments are motivated by several factors. He has undoubtedly to be wary of exposing himself legally, but I suspect he may also be unwilling to be  hypocritical.  In a sense, given the context within which he operated, he comes out of this with more integrity than people like Landis, who's revelations were motivated purely by revenge and greed.

As for current riders? Who knows. Wiggins winning ride came straight after the Landis and Hamilton revelations and so, to an extent, he was doomed to be condemned. But he had a year of winning everything, followed by two years of sweet fa. Odd.   Froome? An unlikely future winner, if viewed prior to his startling Vuelta ride of 2011.

I can't believe that riders would decide to stop doping all by themselves, en masse, without any external impetus, and I can't see that there has been any external pressure.

This, basically. I would add that I think that Armstrong has been pilloried more that others simply for being an unpleasant unlikeable individual with his "win at any cost" attitude. Well more unpleasant and unlikeable that the other driven monomaniac pro riders are. (Caveat - I've only know one personally, and when he was riding competitively even his brother thought he was a shit for his self centred behaviour)

[LEE]

he comes out of this with more integrity than people like Landis,

Low praise indeed

Also, it wasn't Lance's "win at any cost" attitude that makes him unpleasant, almost all top sportsmen and women have that in their character (See: Any Formula 1 Driver).

It's when it extends to targeting people outside of your immediate opponents.  Starting press rumours about Greg Lemond being a drunk.  Calling Emma O'Reiily a whore, purely to discredit her testimony.  He went way beyond what other athletes regard as "any cost".

Nothing I've seen regarding his "apologies" make me think he is sorry about anything but being caught.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Armstrong has been pilloried more than most because he has fought against accusations and punishment more than most. Entirely justified IMHO. Now they need to go after the other major dopers (not just the small fish that get done every now and then) and the enablers (doctors, directors and administrators) who keep the doping going on such a large scale.

[P Walsh]

Armstrong is a persuasive snake. Remember how convincing he was around 1999 when he first denied EPO use. He has the same look now when he puts forward his viewpoint. He would have made a good politician. I don't listen to a word he says now. 

[Argo]

An unpopular opinion, I fear, but I'm really not that fussed by doping in sport. IMHO it's no different to drinking a particular energy drink becuase it contains extra electrolytes, or taking paracetamol before a TT, except in magnitude. It's just riders finding the best ways to get the most out of their bodies - the pain of climbing AdH is still there, you've just "tuned up" the engine.

What I dislike intensely is the doping 'culture',  and Lance epitomises that. He's a sly and vindictive cant, and he shouldn't be given the air of publicity.

I do sympathise with his comments about doing it because everyone else is, wouldn't that keep a level playing field?!

[Nuncio]

An unpopular opinion, I fear, but I'm really not that fussed by doping in sport.

Your avatar reflects your pragmatism.

Armstrong has been pilloried more than most because he has fought against accusations and punishment more than most.

And the bullying, and abuse of power.  Will the full story of the abrupt dropping of the fed case ever come to light?

[P Walsh]

Argo, whilst agreeing with a couple of your points I have moved away from your resigned acceptance of doping because I think people will turn their backs on sports that seem unhealthy. Who would want their children to take up a sport that requires the use of substances that threaten their health simply to compete "on a level playing field"? When the TdF scandals started (1998+) my children were young, and my wife and I probably didn't sit them down in front of the telly to watch the Tour as much as we might have done without the problems. Their interest in the sport is now minimal. Cycle Sport will continue whatever happens, but if the drugs issue remains it will be a small niche interest like bodybuilding.

[citoyen]

Well, that approach would also rule out tennis, golf, rugby, football, boxing, swimming, skiing, gymnastics, baseball, american football, wrestling etc etc...

[P Walsh]

Some sports still have the pain of disclosure to go through. Rugby is one that comes to mind. Cycling, hopefully, is coming out of the other end of a long, dark tunnel that other sports have still to enter. But the drugs image still harms cycle sport, and if it ever emerges that the new, cleaner phase is another lie it may be the final straw for many people. And I include myself in that. I would continue riding my bike, but I would not switch on the telly to watch a race.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

You should be prepared now to turn the TV off and ride your bike. Anything else is too naive.

[spesh]

he comes out of this with more integrity than people like Landis,

Low praise indeed

Also, it wasn't Lance's "win at any cost" attitude that makes him unpleasant, almost all top sportsmen and women have that in their character (See: Any Formula 1 Driver).

<off-topic>
Any F1 driver? For example, Jenson Button never struck me as being someone who would contemplate going as far as Ayrton Senna and Michael Schumacher have done on-track, though he has undoubtedly used his political nature/networking madskillz*  to get his side of the garage fully behind him. Team principals and designers on the other hand, are definitely paid-up members of the "there's no such thing as the spirit of the rules, and it's only illegal if you're caught" club.
</off-topic>

It's when it extends to targeting people outside of your immediate opponents.  Starting press rumours about Greg Lemond being a drunk.  Calling Emma O'Reiily a whore, purely to discredit her testimony.  He went way beyond what other athletes regard as "any cost".

Nothing I've seen regarding his "apologies" make me think he is sorry about anything but being caught.

To paraphrase Max Mosley, Armstrong got a two year ban for cheating, the rest was for being a dickhead.


* Delete in accordance with how much of a Hamilton fanboy you are.

[Torslanda]

As one who watched in awe after 'that look' on Hautacam and one who believed what turned out to be the hype, I have defended L A in the past.

I based my belief in the premise that having endured platinum based chaemotherapy and being somewhat aware of what he was capable of doing to his body, he wouldn't adulterate it with substances that could cause him further harm. Remember - EPO use was so widespread by the time of the Festina debacle that riders had to get up and jump around several times a night because their blood was so thick that more than one or two failed to wake up.

Well that turned out to be a load of old bollocks . . .

I had some sympathy when he was diagnosed with testicular cancer and given the prognosis was amazed by his recovery. That sympathy faded considerably when I read or heard that the cancer was attributable to previous steroid abuse.

My 'about face' is complete. There is no way I could ever dream of emulating his riding ability. You could give me all the performance advantages in the world, it wouldn't make a scrap of difference, I never WANTED to do what he did. I enjoyed watching him do it, up the Ventoux with Pantani, the cyclo cross after Beloki fell, The Alpe d'Huez time trial - but not any more.

He doesn't need a PR team or a spokesman. He needs to Foxtrot Romeo Oscar after facing the music and we should never hear from him again.

And like that <pffffttt> He's gone . . .

[sojournermike]

he comes out of this with more integrity than people like Landis,

Low praise indeed

Also, it wasn't Lance's "win at any cost" attitude that makes him unpleasant, almost all top sportsmen and women have that in their character (See: Any Formula 1 Driver).

It's when it extends to targeting people outside of your immediate opponents.  Starting press rumours about Greg Lemond being a drunk.  Calling Emma O'Reiily a whore, purely to discredit her testimony.  He went way beyond what other athletes regard as "any cost".

Nothing I've seen regarding his "apologies" make me think he is sorry about anything but being caught.

this. Honesty (telling the truth) isn't the same as integrity. All successful sports people are driven. It's just part of the package, but that doesn't require bullying and coercive behaviour.

On the other hand, doping has been endemic in cycling since around 1903 and the level of organised team commitment and investment does make it seem a bit unfair that Lance should be treated as the sole or main pariah.

I retain a fascination with doping tech, even though I've never done it and abhor the combination of unfairness and the associated pressures on athletes that wish to stay clean. My history is in athletics, where I believe there remains a far greater doping culture than is acknowledged, but probably not quite as deep as in cycling.

I'll admit, sometimes I've wondered just what difference it would make to a 50 year old who no longer competes.

Mike

[spesh]

Human nature being what it is, I doubt that cycle racing (or other sports requiring physical endeavour) will ever get cleaner than a given value thereof. The best anyone can hope for is that sufficiently draconian bans, improvements in testing methodologies and retrospective application of such tests act as enough of a deterrent to restrict doping to a minority.

Perfectly clean sports would be nice, but as they aren't things that I have any meaningful control over, while I still think dopers are cupid stunts, I've simply decided not to get too obsessed about it. Obsession leads to madness and flame wars in toxic sub-boards elsewhere on the interwebs...

[mattc]

he comes out of this with more integrity than people like Landis,

Low praise indeed

Also, it wasn't Lance's "win at any cost" attitude that makes him unpleasant, almost all top sportsmen and women have that in their character (See: Any Formula 1 Driver).

It's when it extends to targeting people outside of your immediate opponents.  Starting press rumours about Greg Lemond being a drunk.  Calling Emma O'Reiily a whore, purely to discredit her testimony.  He went way beyond what other athletes regard as "any cost".

Nothing I've seen regarding his "apologies" make me think he is sorry about anything but being caught.

this. Honesty (telling the truth) isn't the same as integrity. All successful sports people are driven. It's just part of the package, but that doesn't require bullying and coercive behaviour.

I agree - there is sport and there is ... the other stuff.

Lamce did mention regrets for "being a dickhead" in the BBC interview. I forget the exact wording.

(of course you don't have to believe him).