Author Topic: Pronunciation that makes you cringe  (Read 84442 times)

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Pronunciation that makes you cringe
« Reply #750 on: January 26, 2021, 04:00:34 pm »
I'm not sure I understand that, except in the case of words two distinct meanings.
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Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Pronunciation that makes you cringe
« Reply #751 on: January 26, 2021, 04:18:18 pm »
I'm not sure I understand that, except in the case of words two distinct meanings.

You might come to understand that a chasm (in the Channel 4 News sense) is a big difference in something, while a kasm is a rock formation.  Deaf people are prone having overly specific definitions of words, and it's certainly something barakta's been known to do.  Overly specific (but correct) use of words doesn't usually result in the sort of semantic errors that people will question, outside of very formal contexts.  And if you're used to not understanding things, you might not question someone else's seemingly unusual use of a word...
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Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Pronunciation that makes you cringe
« Reply #752 on: January 26, 2021, 05:39:28 pm »
Possible, but only if you'd never heard 'kasm' used in the 'big difference' meaning, which seems unlikely.
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

ian

  • feat. Undead Jess & Finestre, Queen of Hell
Re: Pronunciation that makes you cringe
« Reply #753 on: January 26, 2021, 06:17:11 pm »
I think sometimes that it's easy to fall back on a phonetic pronunciation as that's the intuitive pronunciation – the hard k requires effort. This is more so the case when speaking in public, where there's some pressure. I know I've popped out words that are clearly wrong and I know they're wrong and I knew they were wrong when I said them.

I won't bother with the clickbait story about mispronouncing names being a form of racism. You have no idea how often my name is pronounced wrong.
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barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: Pronunciation that makes you cringe
« Reply #754 on: January 26, 2021, 10:54:12 pm »
I think mispronunciation of names as a form of racism isn't as simple as "oh noes my name was said wrong", that does indeed happen to many people quite frequently. Whether it's a weird stressing in the name, mangling the name entirely or whatever.

The racist variant tends to be more subtle and manifests as people refusing to even try and pronounce a name they're a bit scared of that turns out to be entirely phonetic, not making an effort to pronounce correctly when told how, or just assigning the 'foreignly named' person some other name that isn't theirs overly or 'just by accident every time'.

Last week in a big meeting with Boss4, it was notable that she called upon everyone who was giving contributions by name and very obviously avoided using the name of a Boss1 level colleague whose name is Indian (and pronounced EXACTLY as it is written). This is apparently a thing Boss4 does despite having been introduced to Indian named colleague several times. It was blatant enough that I noticed it, when at my workplace there's quite a lot of BME staff, some of whom have "foreign looking" names. Most people just have a go at a pronunciation and make an effort to correct themselves if the named person says it differently.

There's no excuse for not trying in my view cos you can now google "pronounce $NAME" and you'll find videos online with likely pronunciations. Sometimes there's two competing ones, and I have generally found that at introductions if person doesn't say their name, I can ask "Can I check I'm saying your name right, I have found X and Y variants, I'd like to get yours correct". It's a small thing, but seems like basic respect to me. Sometimes I've had students tell me the story of their name and how that relates to a family language - a little glimpse of life stories which are very different to my own.

Oh and for words. Google can now do word pronunciations. "Define: WORD" and click on the speaker, you can slow it down. It's in en-GB now, when it used to be en-US only. I also did a blogpost once on which dictionaries had en-GB human read pronunciations as difficulty with phonemes and sounds is common to dyslexic, deaf and some other people with certain impairments.

By deaf standards I pronounce words pretty well, cos I hear pretty well, but I can reliably tell you if a signer is deaf or hearing partly by their lip pattern cos it often matches a deaf person's guess on how a word is shaped and not how it is shaped when pronounced 'correctly'. An example is "know" many deaf people pronounce it as 'k'now' or they may be aware the k is silent, but pronounce it 'now' rather than like 'no'.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Pronunciation that makes you cringe
« Reply #755 on: January 26, 2021, 11:48:28 pm »
Most people just have a go at a pronunciation and make an effort to correct themselves if the named person says it differently.
I think that's all you can do really and all you can expect on first meeting. Obviously if you know in advance you're going to be meeting someone with a particular name, you can do some research, which might, again, be asking them in an email or similar.

I'm curious about your Boss 1 colleague's Indian name though. IME very few Indian names are pronounced exactly as written from an English reading. The 'th' sound for instance doesn't quite exist in English. Depends on language though...
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

ian

  • feat. Undead Jess & Finestre, Queen of Hell
Re: Pronunciation that makes you cringe
« Reply #756 on: January 27, 2021, 09:34:24 am »
I don't think normal people go around trying to mispronounce peoples' names, but mistakes are easy to make, and yes, some names are simply difficult to pronounce since not all sounds are universal. I work with an Indian team and even they mostly shorten their names for convenience, the same way the Chinese often grab a Western name or just use their initials. Calling everything racism is tedious and demeaning for actual racism.
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barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: Pronunciation that makes you cringe
« Reply #757 on: January 27, 2021, 01:07:30 pm »
I think a person not affected by an issue deciding what is and is not the-issue is a bit dubious to be honest. Micro aggressions are precisely problematic exactly because other people want to say "calling them an ism diminishes the real ism" or otherwise diminish their impact. When actually it's their frequent occurrence which is half of their impact.

While it is common for people with "funny forrin names" to pick an anglo name, not everyone is doing that entirely by choice, given the amount of pressure to "fit in" "not make trouble or be difficult". And that fits in with wider 'colonisation' where "undesirable" minority ethnic groups would often be forcibly renamed to something 'deemed desirable'. So it's not as simple as free choice for everyone.

ian

  • feat. Undead Jess & Finestre, Queen of Hell
Re: Pronunciation that makes you cringe
« Reply #758 on: January 27, 2021, 01:13:52 pm »
That's just weird subjective post-modernism. I've decided I'm offended, so that's offensive, where's my newspaper column. Sorry, I don't buy it. We all make accommodations.
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Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Pronunciation that makes you cringe
« Reply #759 on: January 28, 2021, 10:31:11 am »
By deaf standards I pronounce words pretty well, cos I hear pretty well, but I can reliably tell you if a signer is deaf or hearing partly by their lip pattern cos it often matches a deaf person's guess on how a word is shaped and not how it is shaped when pronounced 'correctly'. An example is "know" many deaf people pronounce it as 'k'now' or they may be aware the k is silent, but pronounce it 'now' rather than like 'no'.
I actually know someone whose surname begins Kn and somewhat counterintuitively, both letters are pronounced separately. I think it might be of Scandinavian origin. Most of his relatives live in Kentucky – it would be interesting to know if they pronounce it the same way he does.
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hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Pronunciation that makes you cringe
« Reply #760 on: January 28, 2021, 03:54:03 pm »
I was just thinking about Alfred Knoller...
An erstwhile schoolmate posted on Facebook today he'd just celebrated his 70th wedding anniversary.
This man ran a boutique very popular with us as schoolgirls and still lives locally.

I saw an interview on Auntie with someone named Jamie, pronounced 'jammy' and wondered how many might call her jaymee...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Pronunciation that makes you cringe
« Reply #761 on: January 28, 2021, 04:06:11 pm »
I saw an interview on Auntie with someone named Jamie, pronounced 'jammy' and wondered how many might call her jaymee...
I'd imagine almost everyone who doesn't already know her. I think if it were me, I might be tempted to change the spelling of my name.
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Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
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Re: Pronunciation that makes you cringe
« Reply #762 on: January 28, 2021, 06:28:55 pm »
By deaf standards I pronounce words pretty well, cos I hear pretty well, but I can reliably tell you if a signer is deaf or hearing partly by their lip pattern cos it often matches a deaf person's guess on how a word is shaped and not how it is shaped when pronounced 'correctly'. An example is "know" many deaf people pronounce it as 'k'now' or they may be aware the k is silent, but pronounce it 'now' rather than like 'no'.
I actually know someone whose surname begins Kn and somewhat counterintuitively, both letters are pronounced separately. I think it might be of Scandinavian origin. Most of his relatives live in Kentucky – it would be interesting to know if they pronounce it the same way he does.

Knetucky?
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bairn again

Re: Pronunciation that makes you cringe
« Reply #763 on: January 29, 2021, 01:53:57 pm »
Increasingly I hear "fith" and "sicth" rather than "fifth" and "sixth".  Weird more than cringeworthy.   
 
I had a lengthy discussion with colleagues this morning over the word "longevity".  It crops up quite a bit in my professional life and I appear to be in small minority (of 1) who says "long-evity" rather than "long-jevity".  Perhaps  a product of having worked for a power company where pronouncing Longannet Power station as "long-gannet" was a cardinal sin.     

Our discussion turned to the pronunctiation of the word "lingerie" and my mind went elswhere..........   :o

Tim Hall

  • Victoria is my queen
Re: Pronunciation that makes you cringe
« Reply #764 on: January 29, 2021, 02:05:15 pm »
Where's the line between "regional accent" and "lazy speech"?

There's a continuity announcer on Her Majesty's BBC TV who says "vvv" instread of "th". Like a steeering wheel in my trousers, it's driving me nuts.
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Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Pronunciation that makes you cringe
« Reply #765 on: January 29, 2021, 03:00:51 pm »
Long gannet power is what makes AUKs run and run.
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Re: Pronunciation that makes you cringe
« Reply #766 on: January 29, 2021, 07:46:21 pm »
There was an Australian on the radio the other day who pronounced influencers to rhyme with influenza. Not sure if that's a regional thing.
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Auntie Helen

  • 6 Wheels in Germany
Re: Pronunciation that makes you cringe
« Reply #767 on: January 29, 2021, 07:49:40 pm »
My partner‘s daughter pronounced it the same - but she‘s German.

The foster son of my landlord and landlady, an Afghan refugee who has lived here 4 years, pronounced Hollister like Polyester! Hollie-ester!
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citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Pronunciation that makes you cringe
« Reply #768 on: February 16, 2021, 04:36:44 pm »
Newsreader on 6music just rendered Tanzania as tan-zanier (like, more zany), which is a pronunciation I've not heard since the 80s.
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Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Pronunciation that makes you cringe
« Reply #769 on: February 16, 2021, 06:15:39 pm »
That's a pronunciation I've only heard on, IIRC, Grange Hill (or something similar – definitely 1980s TV), where it was clearly intended to mark out the (ignorant posh private school) baddies at some junior UN-type thing.
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ian

  • feat. Undead Jess & Finestre, Queen of Hell
Re: Pronunciation that makes you cringe
« Reply #770 on: February 16, 2021, 07:29:28 pm »
The locals seem to pronounce it both ways, though mostly Tan-ZAY-knee-uh amongst younger people (in my experience). It's a portmanteau anyway (Tanganyika and Zanzibar).

In other matters, Ken-Ya and not Keen-Ya.
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citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Pronunciation that makes you cringe
« Reply #771 on: February 16, 2021, 09:11:00 pm »
Interesting that the locals say it that way. That is how I was taught to say it back in the late 70s/early 80s, whenever it was, but I’ve not heard that pronunciation for many years. Really took me by surprise.

(Wouldn’t say it made me cringe but we don’t have a ‘pronunciation that surprises you’ thread)
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

ian

  • feat. Undead Jess & Finestre, Queen of Hell
Re: Pronunciation that makes you cringe
« Reply #772 on: February 16, 2021, 09:20:24 pm »
Hmm, I've only been there once, but I certainly heard it both ways and I'd say from a limited sample size, the 'zanier' pronunciation was mostly (exclusively) older people. Google seems to agree with me that it's fallen out of fashion but isn't per se incorrect. I guess when the name was invented nobody did a handy pronunciation guide.

Arkansas, on the other hand, had quite the time deciding on their preference.
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Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Pronunciation that makes you cringe
« Reply #773 on: February 16, 2021, 09:22:11 pm »
(Wouldn’t say it made me cringe but we don’t have a ‘pronunciation that surprises you’ thread)
Just as with the grammar thread, at least half isn't really cringe.
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Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
  • Custard Wallah
    • Mr Larrington's Automatic Diary
Re: Pronunciation that makes you cringe
« Reply #774 on: February 16, 2021, 11:01:45 pm »
Wasn’t the Arkansas/Kansas business something to do with the Louisiana Purchase?  If I can’t blame Thatcher then Napoléon will make a reasonable substitute.
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