Author Topic: e-scooter trial  (Read 89670 times)

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #700 on: 02 November, 2023, 09:19:22 pm »
Instead of addressing the problems caused by a small minority, be they inappriopriate speed, passing too closley to pedestrians, popping wheelies etc. either by deterence (i.e. visible police presence) or detection and enforcement (subjective and thus hard/expensive) small minded local authorities outright ban the associated activity and penalise a much more signifciant minority irrespective of what extra inconvenience or disadvantage it causes. That's the BRITTISH way.

It seems to me that people who act anti-socially don't need a scooter, bike, e-bike or even car to do it. They will just do it. Banning the associated activity/mode of transport to me seems completely bonkers.

Nothing I love more [sarcasm] than pushing a bike and trailer loaded with groceries from one end of town to the other - and that's with unhindered mobility.

 :facepalm:
A Few Apples Short of a Strudel

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #701 on: 03 November, 2023, 12:45:26 am »
Exactly, it's often this hyped up fear of "antisocial behaviour" often not even well evidenced.

A friend is challenging disablist cycle infra the cooncil claims is cos of antisocial badness, yet FOI shows no fewer reported complaints to council or police after installation than before, in fact the amount has gone up in spite of the disablist barrier.

Also lack of policing does not justify disablist rules or infra, that's not a proportionate means to a legitimate aim defence as outlined by excellent Ryan at last night's Wheels4Wellbeing webinar on this topic.

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #702 on: 03 November, 2023, 08:37:51 am »
Having sat on the fringes of local politics for a while, I'd even go so far as to say, with some councillors, it's almost a fear of change and fear of what they don't understand.

Electrically assisted scooters and HPVs represent something modern to them and they find this threatening.

Some years ago, at a meeting attended by a few local councillors, I'd left some of my vaping parafanailia out on a table close to where I was sat. One of them challenged me, having immediately assumed it was something to do with consuming cannabis. At a macro level, this is how some of them function - they are presented with something they don't understand and it, within an instant, consummates all of the fears they have internalised from reading the Daily Heil.
A Few Apples Short of a Strudel

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #703 on: 03 November, 2023, 11:45:35 am »
I wonder what proof they are going to want about disabled people claiming use as a mobility aid? Cos if the start hassling disabled people on e-scooters or e-cycles, some of us will fight back and I know just the tools we could use.



There is now an updated article that subtly changes things: https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/e-bikes-look-set-banned-28023883

Quote
Pedal bicycles won’t be affected after concerns that this could be ‘counterproductive’. People who use mobility scooters will also be exempt.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #704 on: 03 November, 2023, 12:32:40 pm »
Having sat on the fringes of local politics for a while, I'd even go so far as to say, with some councillors, it's almost a fear of change and fear of what they don't understand.

Electrically assisted scooters and HPVs represent something modern to them and they find this threatening.

Some years ago, at a meeting attended by a few local councillors, I'd left some of my vaping parafanailia out on a table close to where I was sat. One of them challenged me, having immediately assumed it was something to do with consuming cannabis. At a macro level, this is how some of them function - they are presented with something they don't understand and it, within an instant, consummates all of the fears they have internalised from reading the Daily Heil.

Ah yes.  The people who think you're about to start a nuclear war, or at least commit fraud, if you open a terminal window...

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #705 on: 05 November, 2023, 07:26:48 am »
Aren't mobility scooters limited to 4mph?

It looks like it's just easier to apply a blanket ban than to differentiate the legal ebikes from the illegal ones.

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #706 on: 05 November, 2023, 08:22:47 am »


Aren't mobility scooters limited to 4mph?
If only it were that simple:
"Mobility scooters and powered wheelchairs come in 2 categories:

class 2: these cannot be used on the road (except where there is not a pavement) and have a maximum speed of 4mph

class 3: these can be used on the road and have a maximum speed of 4mph off the road and 8mph on the road"
From https://www.gov.uk/mobility-scooters-and-powered-wheelchairs-rules

Leaving aside the 'hacked', 'chipped' or otherwise modified ones which are capable of much greater speeds (disabled people are no different in this respect from any other eMobility users).
Too many angry people - breathe & relax.

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #707 on: 05 November, 2023, 06:12:26 pm »


Aren't mobility scooters limited to 4mph?
If only it were that simple:
"Mobility scooters and powered wheelchairs come in 2 categories:

class 2: these cannot be used on the road (except where there is not a pavement) and have a maximum speed of 4mph


Wow, what do they have to do when the pavement is full of parked cars? Turn round and go home again?
Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #708 on: 05 November, 2023, 06:28:15 pm »
The really stupid rule, which everyone ignores, is that neither are allowed to use cycle infrastructure.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #709 on: 05 November, 2023, 07:51:49 pm »
What's the reason for the Class 3s having a maximum legal speed of 8mph rather than the 15 that applies to e-scooters? Are the vehicles significantly more unstable, badly braked, or something? Fear of pavement wars in which rival gangs of mobility-impaired old people fight each other with knives concealed in zimmer frames and mobility scooters turned into mini-tanks? Are there any moves among mobility-scooter users, who I'd assume are quite large in number (and being mostly old people, the government might listen to them), to get it increased?
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #710 on: 05 November, 2023, 09:15:50 pm »
I wonder what proof they are going to want about disabled people claiming use as a mobility aid? Cos if the start hassling disabled people on e-scooters or e-cycles, some of us will fight back and I know just the tools we could use.
There is now an updated article that subtly changes things: https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/e-bikes-look-set-banned-28023883

Quote
Pedal bicycles won’t be affected after concerns that this could be ‘counterproductive’. People who use mobility scooters will also be exempt.

I look forward to a disabled e-cyclist suing the shite out of Coventry Council for disability discrimination on this. I cannot see a proportionate means to a legitimate aim; cos the obnoxious e-bikists and e-scooterists will continue unabated and it doesn't solve the issue. Police the obnoxious riders not anyone who needs an e-bike.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #711 on: 05 November, 2023, 09:28:26 pm »
What's the reason for the Class 3s having a maximum legal speed of 8mph rather than the 15 that applies to e-scooters?

The classes were invented for the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act 1970, and represent the technology (and language) of the time.

I believe there's some work in progress to introduce a Category 4, which would give e-bike speeds to things like clip-on handcycles, without preventing them from using footways (presumably at 4mph).  Currently an adapted pedal cycle, that would otherwise count as a Category 1, loses its Invalid Carriage status as soon as you add electric assist, which I'd hope it would also solve.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #712 on: 06 November, 2023, 08:56:08 am »
Currently an adapted pedal cycle, that would otherwise count as a Category 1, loses its Invalid Carriage status as soon as you add electric assist, which I'd hope it would also solve.
A very irksome hole in the rules.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #713 on: 07 November, 2023, 07:21:00 pm »
Government dithers on legislation and extends scooter trials until May 2026:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-67335275

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #714 on: 08 November, 2023, 09:07:03 am »
Quote
Guide Dogs would like to see mandatory docked-parking for rental e-scooters, strict controls on their weight, power and speed, and enforcement when they are misused.
Mandatory docked parking would be a good idea. Ideally it would be on the road not the pavement.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #715 on: 08 November, 2023, 09:17:01 am »
On another note, I noticed that the Tier scooters, unlike the otherwise very similar Vois, have a brake light. I'm not convinced this really serves a useful purpose on a vehicle that cannot exceed 15.5mph.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #716 on: 08 November, 2023, 09:38:13 am »
e-scooters (still officially "on trial" after three years) are like cars: getting bigger.

Quote
Tier e-scooters are noticeably larger than Vois – photo: Charlie Watts
https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/end-road-voi-bristol/

Scooters for boys and girls!!!
It is simpler than it looks.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #717 on: 08 November, 2023, 09:50:54 am »
Scooters for boys and girls!!!
Looking for scoots, who like bikes, who like scoots, who like bikes, who like scoots – always should be something you really ride.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #718 on: 08 November, 2023, 08:04:39 pm »
The devil is, as always, in the detail of the Coventry city centre e-scooter/e-bike ban.

...and apparently the detail is:

Quote
Any person is prohibited from riding, cycling, or using an E-bike or E-scooter, within the protected area shown on the attached map (Appendix 2b).

Unless: 1. that person has a reasonable excuse for failing to do so; or 2. the owner, occupier or other person or authority having control of the land has consented (generally or specifically) to that person failing to do so.

Any person may push and walk alongside their E-bike, or E-scooter through the defined area.

Exemption: Nothing in this order applies to a person who uses a mobility scooter for access reasons or a person who uses an E-bike or E-scooter as a mobility aid and cannot safely dismount and push a cycle for any significant distance, but these persons must use these aids in a careful and considerate manner.

https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/ban-e-bikes-e-scooters-28067052

Sounds reasonable to me but not sure how it will work in practice.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #719 on: 08 November, 2023, 08:15:55 pm »
The devil is, as always, in the detail of the Coventry city centre e-scooter/e-bike ban.

...and apparently the detail is:

Quote
Any person is prohibited from riding, cycling, or using an E-bike or E-scooter, within the protected area shown on the attached map (Appendix 2b).

Unless: 1. that person has a reasonable excuse for failing to do so; or 2. the owner, occupier or other person or authority having control of the land has consented (generally or specifically) to that person failing to do so.

Any person may push and walk alongside their E-bike, or E-scooter through the defined area.

Exemption: Nothing in this order applies to a person who uses a mobility scooter for access reasons or a person who uses an E-bike or E-scooter as a mobility aid and cannot safely dismount and push a cycle for any significant distance, but these persons must use these aids in a careful and considerate manner.

https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/ban-e-bikes-e-scooters-28067052

Sounds reasonable to me but not sure how it will work in practice.

The CET has an old photo at the beginning of that article. There’s no canopy there anymore. (Although it does look like the glass has been removed in the photo…)
It is simpler than it looks.

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #720 on: 11 November, 2023, 06:59:52 pm »
The issue is going to be proof and whose proof is accepted. As a middle class (and perceived as posh by my speech here in Middle Earth) white middle aged woman with some visible impairments, I expect to be believed. If I was younger, maler, blacker, less middle class etc, I would expect to be less believed even if I was e-cycling sensibly.

Why not just say anyone riding antisocially can be asked to leave and enforce it properly?

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #721 on: 17 November, 2023, 06:51:39 pm »
Apparently there are problems with some of the Tier fleet.
Quote
Lack of availability, broken kick stands, no parking spaces or battery levels shown on the app before you ride, scooters slowing down or even stopping completely on busy roads due to faulty GPS and no in-app navigation are just some of the problems that users have been experiencing.
https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/tier-acknowledges-problems-bristol-e-scooter-fleet/

I've heard the kickstand problem (noisy sound of metal on tarmac) but only once, which suggests it can't be that widespread.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #722 on: 22 November, 2023, 10:40:56 pm »
Not fast & rarely furious

tweeting occasional in(s)anities as andrewxclark

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #723 on: 13 December, 2023, 06:50:05 pm »
E-scooters being joined by 500 "Westbikes" and to be followed by cargo bikes. For some reason the cargo bikes will require a different app to hire.
https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/tier-rolling-out-fleet-e-bikes-bristol/
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.