Author Topic: e-scooter trial  (Read 33076 times)

Cudzoziemiec

  • Моя планета голубая, я люблю тебя и обнимаю
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #400 on: 30 October, 2021, 07:24:43 pm »
It may well be impossible to build an electric skateboard/unicycle/hovercraft/etc with braking appropriate for 15mph.  I'd suggest that these should either conform to the walking-speed class, or remain illegal to operate on the public highway.
I used to see a fair number of these riding on the road and doing about 15mph. I suggest we might call them e-boards as a generic term to encompass the various numbers and layouts of wheels, shapes and riding positions etc. Well, I'm going to, until someone comes up with a better term (maybe the next post). I haven't seen many recently though. Either they've migrated to electric scooters or they were commuters who are now wfh (or equally my habits have changed). I've never seen one do a rapid stop. But then you very rarely see any vehicle actually do an emergency stop. I dare say that for the more vertical ones, especially with only one wheel, the quickest stop technique is to jump off.

If possible, I'd say allow them up to 15mph or thereabouts, for similar reasons to the 8mph mobility scooters; it's just far easier to be part of the traffic.

As for braking standards for bicycles, I remember the little booklet that came with my Dawes Lightning back in 1987 specified that it met a certain braking standard as part of BS6102. I don't remember the figures but I do remember that the braking distance was determined not just by speed but by gear.
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #401 on: 30 October, 2021, 07:48:01 pm »
Maybe, if you want to keep it generic, there should be a braking requirement as well? Bikes at present are, IIRC, supposed to have efficient brakes, without that being defined particularly closely. So it shouldn't be impossible to have some basic braking requirement to keep a vehicle in the "bike" class. Might have to take account of mass, or more specifically of kinetic energy, as electric vehicles can be quite heavy, but even they probably don't weigh that much by comparison with the rider.

The e-bike rules have some weight limits, too.  I forget what, but reasonable cargo bike sort of thing.

MikeFromLFE

  • Previously known as Millimole
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #402 on: 30 October, 2021, 07:53:10 pm »
I'm not sure my comments add a lot to whats been said already but I'll put them out there anyway ???

I've recently bought an eMoped (28mph, registration plate, helmet, insurance etc) as a replacement for my 170cc ICE scooter - and it leads to a certain style of riding due to its high centre of gravity and big wheels. I can't say I'm totally comfortable on it yet. The lack of 'audio feedback' from a motor is very disconcerting - the main/only noise is from the helmet visor. The biggest shock was the cost of the insurance which was no cheaper than the motorbike (about £140 for the year).
I really don't think that this type of machine is suitable for any significant deregulation away from its 'moped' classification based on my limited experience.

Equally Mrs M has bought a folding travel mobility scooter (Class 2) and, of course I've had a whizz around on it. There is no specific brake, stopping & slowing is purely based on the motor in the front wheel, and very effective. (The drive wheel looks remarkably like an e-scooter wheel). Being a 4mph pavement machine it's not suitable for roads (or allowed on cycle paths) - so far so good, the speed seems about right for pavements.
I'm not clear on what the use-case of the class 3 (8mph) machines actually is - 8mph is neither here not there. I can see a good case for 12mph and permission to use cycle paths.
Too many angry people - breathe & relax.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Моя планета голубая, я люблю тебя и обнимаю
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #403 on: 30 October, 2021, 08:20:22 pm »
With something like that moped, it would be a mistake to treat it differently from a safety, licencing and testing aspect, just because it has an electric motor. In safety terms, speed etc, that makes no more difference than the difference between a petrol and diesel engine. So a moped is a moped. Or should be.

The 4mp mobility scooter I'm not sure I quite understand. That's a reasonably fast walk. Sometimes the bulk of the machines is a problem on narrow pavements (solution: wider pavements). But most cycle paths have pedestrians, moving at 4mph, and all have small kids moving at a similar speed on bikes or other wheeled devices, so it would make sense to allow them there too. On-road cycle lanes are clearly a different case and it wouldn't be suitable.
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #404 on: 30 October, 2021, 08:34:01 pm »
The Class 2 Invalid Carriage class is intended for smaller electric wheelchairs and scooters; directly equivalent to walking, for people who for whatever reason are unable to.

I think it makes sense to have a class for faster (larger) wheelchairs and scooters, as it's entirely reasonable for an electric wheelchair user to want to use it for the sort of journeys that are well-suited to cycling, and not have to faff about with public transport or driving, but that's only practical if you can go a bit faster than walking speed.  8mph is a silly speed, but the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act was written in 1970, before e-bikes and similar were a thing[1].  I suspect they just took the 4mph limit and doubled it, possibly because it makes the engineering of the 'pavement mode' easier[2].


[1] Looks like they became legal in the UK in 1983.
[2] In those days speed control would have been implemented with series/parallel switching or gearboxes or something, rather than modern semiconductor motor control.

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #405 on: 31 October, 2021, 10:05:59 pm »
My worry about increasing the 8mph limit is the usual user.
My FiL has had his licence removed due to his eyesight. He has an 8mph machine now which allows him to trundle safely to the supermarket on the road. A higher speed would be good for being in traffic but he no longer has the reflexes or eyesight for faster. I would keep it at 8mph.

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #406 on: 01 November, 2021, 01:41:13 pm »
Maybe we need some kind of vision requirement for the faster machines?

The issue is we barely enforce vision standards for car driving - the official rules would let me drive despite the fact my vision is a clusterfuck. Trying to get my consultant neuro-ophthalmologist to write "driving is not safe" was a challenge. The best I could manage was a useful 1 para summary of the specifics of my balance and related vision difficulties + "Natalya feels she is unsafe to drive" at the end... Hopefully anyone demanding I prove I can't drive for disability reasons (common in job ads) would accept "can't process moving objects" as a good excuse... 

I know one of the reasons scooters get poorer treatment on buses/trains is that the users tend to be older with poorer vision and spatial awareness and more likely to crash into things and people because they don't see them properly. Which of course screws over scooter users who can see perfectly well but need EndlessBureaucracy from each different bus company, train company and other... Or gets people who have a 'powered wheelchair' told "That's a SCOOTER! NOT ALLOWED!" because the distinction is poor and most people couldn't determine wheelchair from scooter anyway.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #407 on: 01 November, 2021, 01:42:51 pm »
Maybe we need some kind of vision requirement for the faster machines?

Does that include pedal cycles?

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #408 on: 01 November, 2021, 05:37:22 pm »
Maybe we need some kind of vision requirement for the faster machines?

Does that include pedal cycles?

I don't know, a lot depends on actual risk to themselves and others... I don't think we do have that research.

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #409 on: 01 November, 2021, 06:33:37 pm »

  • Limited to walking speed, but allowed on pavements, footpaths, etc.  No licencing, insurance or PPE requirements.  (Roughly the UK Class 2 Invalid Carriage, but I'd include things like ride-on toys for small children or powered trolleys for delivering stuff)
  • Limited to reasonable cycling speed (the EU standard 25kph/250W seems eminently sensible) and treated as legally equivalent to bicycles - so no requirements for licencing, insurance or PPE, but age restricted and some construction and use rules pertaining to roadworthiness (brakes, lights, etc).
  • Possibly some sort of ~30mph moped class (like the Speed Pedelecs they have in some European countries), with number-plate, licencing and insurance requirements, but more bicycle-style construction and use, and minimal barriers to ownership compared to true motorcycles.
  • Everything else is a motor vehicle.

All eminently sensible and pragmatic. The only thing I could suggest to improve would be to set the limit for the second category to limit the speed to 20mph which would match the increasingly prevalent urban speed limit.
Rust never sleeps

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
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Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #410 on: 03 November, 2021, 06:35:46 pm »
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #411 on: 03 November, 2021, 06:40:12 pm »
And now they’re trying to incinerate the public transport system of London’s Famous London!. Ban this sick filth!

I've been waiting ages for the knee-jerk banning of large[1] lithium-ion batteries on trains, just to make things even more un-fun for wheelchair users and BloodyCyclists.


[1] I'm guessing a working definition of "Anything with more Watt-hours than the chair of the Rail Delivery Group's laptop".



Cudzoziemiec

  • Моя планета голубая, я люблю тебя и обнимаю
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #412 on: 03 November, 2021, 07:42:01 pm »
Quote
"They are not safe for riders, pedestrians and now to passengers on public transport," said Mr Hodgson, whose charity campaigns against the use of e-scooters in public places.
Let's replace them with a safer means of propulsion. I dunno, how about burning vapourising a flammable liquid and setting fire to it? And then making it propel something weighing a several of tons at a speed faster than the branez of a small child can process? Does that sound safe? Problem is no one thinks of scooters, whether kickalong, electric or petrol, as alternatives to cars, but alternatives to walking and cycling.
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #413 on: 03 November, 2021, 08:03:24 pm »
Anything that's not a car is a toy.

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #414 on: 03 November, 2021, 08:13:45 pm »
TBF, you're not going to tuck your Range Rover under your arm as you whistle your way merrily onto the District Line.
Rust never sleeps

yorkie

  • On top of the Galibier
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #415 on: 04 November, 2021, 12:08:49 pm »
TBF, you're not going to tuck your Range Rover under your arm as you whistle your way merrily onto the District Line.


Doesn't stop them trying though...  :-D


(Link to photo of motor car driven down steps of Paris Metro!)
Born to ride my bike, forced to work! ;)

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Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #416 on: 12 November, 2021, 04:44:13 pm »
In my home town e scooters are still illegal. This generally means most are operated by yoofs and hoodlums including one lad who has a face mask on I'm guessing to avoid ID

However I see one regularly in my dog walk. Youngish lady, helmet on and lights who lives in flats with limited parking. It's also pretty early so guess she works nights so probably feels a damn site (sight?) Safer at 15mph then her walking speed. She operates it responsibly but is technically as illegal as the idiots who were probably idiots on bikes and will probably become idiots on dirtbikes and then cars

Adam

  • It'll soon be summer
    • Charity ride Durness to Dover 18-25th June 2011
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #417 on: 13 November, 2021, 11:12:08 pm »
In my home town e scooters are still illegal. This generally means most are operated by yoofs and hoodlums including one lad who has a face mask on I'm guessing to avoid ID

However I see one regularly in my dog walk. Youngish lady, helmet on and lights who lives in flats with limited parking. It's also pretty early so guess she works nights so probably feels a damn site (sight?) Safer at 15mph then her walking speed. She operates it responsibly but is technically as illegal as the idiots who were probably idiots on bikes and will probably become idiots on dirtbikes and then cars

Same as BMW drivers - you do occasionally see one driving normally and using their indicators!
“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving.” -Albert Einstein

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #418 on: 14 November, 2021, 08:41:25 pm »
In my home town e scooters are still illegal. This generally means most are operated by yoofs and hoodlums including one lad who has a face mask on I'm guessing to avoid ID

However I see one regularly in my dog walk. Youngish lady, helmet on and lights who lives in flats with limited parking. It's also pretty early so guess she works nights so probably feels a damn site (sight?) Safer at 15mph then her walking speed. She operates it responsibly but is technically as illegal as the idiots who were probably idiots on bikes and will probably become idiots on dirtbikes and then cars

Same as BMW drivers - you do occasionally see one driving normally and using their indicators!

Even though driving a BMW is not illegal
Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #419 on: 14 November, 2021, 08:55:14 pm »
Hmmm.  Based on your signature line, "the driving of a BMW is usually illegal," will that do?

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
  • Custard Wallah
    • Mr Larrington's Automatic Diary
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #420 on: 14 November, 2021, 09:53:39 pm »
In my home town e scooters are still illegal. This generally means most are operated by yoofs and hoodlums including one lad who has a face mask on I'm guessing to avoid ID

However I see one regularly in my dog walk. Youngish lady, helmet on and lights who lives in flats with limited parking. It's also pretty early so guess she works nights so probably feels a damn site (sight?) Safer at 15mph then her walking speed. She operates it responsibly but is technically as illegal as the idiots who were probably idiots on bikes and will probably become idiots on dirtbikes and then cars

Same as BMW drivers - you do occasionally see one driving normally and using their indicators!

Even though driving a BMW is not illegal

Well, not yet.  We of the Democratic Ruthless Bastards Party might provide an exemption for pre-1976 models and the M1.
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

Cudzoziemiec

  • Моя планета голубая, я люблю тебя и обнимаю
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #421 on: 24 November, 2021, 08:08:31 pm »
Mayor Marvin speaks in favour of legalizing private e-scooters:
Quote
“I don’t think prohibition on scooters is working so let’s bring them in,” said the mayor.

“They are everywhere anyway and the police are struggling to enforce so let’s properly regulate what is a reality of life now.”

Rees said he is concerned about the potential risks involved but said he is writing to the Police and Crime Commissioner about regulation and speaking to Voi to ensure the firm is on top of safety for the hire scooters.

Perhaps more significantly, so do Voi:
Quote
“The rise of micromobility across the UK and Europe in recent years has seen a step-change in the way we travel, especially in Bristol, with rental e-scooters providing zero-emission, lightweight alternatives to polluting motor vehicles,” said Sam Pooke, senior public policy manager at Voi.

“Voi supports in principle the notion of private scooter use as it promotes a sustainable mode of transport, but regulations which permit their usage must ensure a level playing-field between rental and private vehicles.

“Much like Voi e-scooters, private vehicles must be regulated in a safe and appropriate manner, with strict provisions in place requiring riders to have insurance, maximum vehicle speed limits, where riders are allowed to operate and other specifications such as number plates, for the benefit and safety of pedestrians and all other road users.”
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.