Author Topic: Delivery mopeds and electric scooters in London  (Read 1520 times)

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Delivery mopeds and electric scooters in London
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2021, 12:11:39 pm »
Is the Oxford scheme Voi? The Vois in Bristol were restricted to 10mph initially, which seemed odd, but it was an initial phase and was raised to the standard 15mph "once people were used to the scheme" which I expect meant in practice once non-hirers were used to seeing scooters rather than the hirers were used to the incredible speed.
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Delivery mopeds and electric scooters in London
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2021, 12:49:42 pm »
The 25kph e-bike limit is based on a reasonable speed for a bicycle to go, and I agree it's a good middle ground - much slower than a fit cyclist can manage on the flat, or any cyclist can manage downhill (so within the speed envelope a cyclist will be used to controlling a bike), but fast enough to make decent progress as a practical form of transport.  It's also a fast running speed, which we've evolved to survive a fall at without serious injury.  The SCIENCE shows that e-bike accidents are due to them enabling people with little cycling experience and/or strength and balance impairments to use bikes, which they then fall off at low speed and when mounting/dismounting/doing unwise things with luggage, not due to their cruising speed being higher than typical unassisted utility cyclists.

Scooters, wheelchairs[1] and other personal electric mobility devices should, in my mind, be subject to the same restrictions for the same reasons, unless they're of a design that precludes efficient braking, where a lower speed seems reasonable.  It's about predictability for other road users.

As cyclists we know that banning things simply because they're unusual and a visible minority use them recklessly is not the way to go.  We shouldn't get jealous that scooters (both powered and unpowered) are currently fashionable and bicycles are not.  They're all one less car, and should be encouraged.  The leap from a scooter to a pedal cycle is much less than that from a car or bus.

The Rochdale story could easily be about a bicycle collision.  We don't know the circumstances, other than that the operator of the faster vehicle should be considered responsible by default.  Leaving the scene of the accident is clearly wrong, but also understandable since the vehicle was being operated illegally.  (I'm assuming that a 'black electric scooter' is not part of one of the trial hire schemes - hire scooters tend to have distinctive livery.)


[1] The law seriously needs to be changed to make it legal to operate Class II and III Invalid Carriages in cycle lanes.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Delivery mopeds and electric scooters in London
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2021, 01:29:14 pm »
Leaving the scene of the accident is clearly wrong, but also understandable since the vehicle was being operated illegally.
Occurs to me a default third-party insurance for all e-scooter and e-bikes (and trikes and mobiscoots) would cost peanuts and perhaps reduce incidents like this because the person responsible would feel confident they weren't going to be sued. (I presume this is already included when you hire an official e-scooter.)
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Re: Delivery mopeds and electric scooters in London
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2021, 02:03:50 pm »
Yes, Oxford is Voi.
And yes, the hire schemes have to provide 3rd party cover.

The logic behind 15mph makes sense. It can be a frustrating compromise, where it's too slow for riding on the road, but too fast for shared use. Maybe there should be a special pedelec license in this country that allows you to ride 30mph e-bikes, but they can't go on shared use paths, but that would just confuse everyone.

Re: Delivery mopeds and electric scooters in London
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2021, 02:18:56 pm »
Isn't the point of the ebike 15mph limit is that it's still classed as a bicycle (although electric assist)?

A high powered 30mph+ ebike or escooter would be a motorbike/motor vehicle, ie you need helmet, licence, insurance, MOT etc.

I'm all for more people using ebikes and escooters but they should be ridden on roads and cycle lanes and banned from pavements.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Delivery mopeds and electric scooters in London
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2021, 02:25:30 pm »
I'm all for more people using ebikes and escooters but they should be ridden on roads and cycle lanes and banned from pavements.

They are (except where pavement cycling is legalised via blue signs and magic paint).  Nobody's proposing otherwise.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Delivery mopeds and electric scooters in London
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2021, 05:35:01 pm »
Isn't the point of the ebike 15mph limit is that it's still classed as a bicycle (although electric assist)?
A high powered 30mph+ ebike or escooter would be a motorbike/motor vehicle, ie you need helmet, licence, insurance, MOT etc.
Yes. Which is why there are loads of illegally modified 25mph ebikes (and escooters) about. The gov't had to create a new legal basis for the escooters not to require all that stuff - they could do so for ones with more power if they wanted.

Quote
I'm all for more people using ebikes and escooters but they should be ridden on roads and cycle lanes and banned from pavements.
So the status quo then?

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Delivery mopeds and electric scooters in London
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2021, 05:42:44 pm »
The regulations allow the e-scooters more power than the 250W allowed to e-bikes but without any increase in top speed. Can't remember how much though. Presumably this is to compensate for the lack of leg power?
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Delivery mopeds and electric scooters in London
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2021, 05:44:13 pm »
The regulations allow the e-scooters more power than the 250W allowed to e-bikes but without any increase in top speed. Can't remember how much though. Presumably this is to compensate for the lack of leg power?

I think it's to compensate for heavy battery packs in hire scooters.  The bigger the battery, the less frequently the scootervan has to come and swap them.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
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Re: Delivery mopeds and electric scooters in London
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2021, 06:12:25 pm »
I have to get this off my chest. I drive a car in London, have had a licence for 40 years (yeah I know - do I wear a pork pie hat).
Recently I have noticed many more delivery drivers on mopeds. They are a menace. They will cut up your inside to gain seconds and really look like they don't know the dangers of being sideswiped.
Nowt wrong with courier riders etc. - it just seems these ar youths sent out on rickety mopeds with no idea of the 'rules of the road' (yeah my pork pie hat is showing).

Electric scooters are getting bad too. I've seen a few doing idiotic things on the road, like crossing junctions when it suits them and weaving across the road.
You would feel awful if you hit one but again they seem oblivious to the normal rules of the road.

The scooters and cyclists IMO are a menace, but they are on piece work.  Same as tipper truck drivers.

Are the riders at the young age where they are invincible, there are just many many more than there were before.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Delivery mopeds and electric scooters in London
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2021, 06:39:04 pm »
The regulations allow the e-scooters more power than the 250W allowed to e-bikes but without any increase in top speed. Can't remember how much though. Presumably this is to compensate for the lack of leg power?

I think it's to compensate for heavy battery packs in hire scooters.  The bigger the battery, the less frequently the scootervan has to come and swap them.
Yeah, that would make sense.
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Re: Delivery mopeds and electric scooters in London
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2021, 07:49:43 pm »
I'm all for more people using ebikes and escooters but they should be ridden on roads and cycle lanes and banned from pavements.
So the status quo then?

Well, I think bikes, ebikes and escooters should all have the same legal status, ie no helmet, licence, insurance, MOT. And no riding on pavements.

Obviously ebikes and escooters are electric assist only up to 15mph.

mmmmartin

  • BPB 1/1: PBP 0/1
    • FNRttC
Re: Delivery mopeds and electric scooters in London
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2021, 05:53:46 pm »
The SCIENCE shows that e-bike accidents are due to them enabling people with little cycling experience and/or strength and balance impairments to use bikes, which they then fall off at low speed and when mounting/dismounting/doing unwise things with luggage, not due to their cruising speed being higher than typical unassisted utility cyclists.
A bike shop bloke in The Netherlands once explained to me that they had loads of old people in hospitals there because they had been cyclists for donkey's years and had become weak and feeble so switched to electric bikes. But the whole balance thing was often too much for them and they fell off. Being in their 70s and 80s this often meant broken bones. Hence the hospital trip.
Besides, it wouldn't be audacious if success were guaranteed.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Delivery mopeds and electric scooters in London
« Reply #38 on: March 07, 2021, 12:02:26 pm »
The SCIENCE shows that e-bike accidents are due to them enabling people with little cycling experience and/or strength and balance impairments to use bikes, which they then fall off at low speed and when mounting/dismounting/doing unwise things with luggage, not due to their cruising speed being higher than typical unassisted utility cyclists.
A bike shop bloke in The Netherlands once explained to me that they had loads of old people in hospitals there because they had been cyclists for donkey's years and had become weak and feeble so switched to electric bikes. But the whole balance thing was often too much for them and they fell off. Being in their 70s and 80s this often meant broken bones. Hence the hospital trip.

Yep, this has been shown in the stats in recent years. It's also linked to the fact that the modern ebike have substantially better brakes than the BSO's they've been riding for 70 years. As well as better acceleration. It's not so much that older people are crashing ebikes more than younger riders, it's just they don't get up so good when they do...

J

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