Author Topic: Benefit of using a 'non-compact' chainset with new wide range Shimano derailleur  (Read 1318 times)

Hi all.

I'm in the process of building up a frame for 'slow' rides; running general errands, long day rides and little credit card tours (it's a 2011 Salsa Casseroll) I'm trying to keep it a very simple / dependable bike, downtube shifters, cantis etc, and recently I have been thinking about how best to spec the gearing.

The newer Shimano and Sram road rear derailleurs will go up to 30 or even 32 tooth (chainring dependent). I wonder if this opens up an opportunity for people to 'go back to' a non-compact front set up for general, moderately hilly, riding. I see lots of complaints about needing to constantly shift back and forth with a compact double, and i'm not sure I want a triple on a bike that i'm trying to keep very pared back and simple.

Would using say a 50-38 with a 12-30 cassette make for a more 'usable' set of gears than using a compact 50-34 and say an 11-28 cassette? I'm wondering if a new wide range derailleur out back would allow me to spend more time riding in the big ring up front, but have the 38 as a bail out - as opposed to needing to shift the front back and forth as I do with my compact. Kind of like  1X10 setup but with a bailout gear too. Most people would see the new rear mechs as a way to get 'even lower' gearing with a compact, but because I won't be climbing any mountains with this bike I suppose i'm looking at it a different way - maybe it brings a different opportunity. I expect there might be a bit of cross-chaining though.

I thought this was the right place to ask for views. Obviously i'm waiting for someone to tell me off for being vain about not wanting a triple! What do you think?

Any thoughts.

cross chaining is a serious enemy here; modern cassettes usually have too many small sprockets and not as many in the middle of the range as you would like for this task.. Whether it works for you is dependant on what gears you like to use and the terrain you expect to ride. Personally I'd just fit a triple and be done with it, but hey, it is your bike... ;)

BTW you can bias the chainline to the left and get out of the worst chainline bind that way; it doesn't make the (dish-eating, wheel weakening) small sprockets any more useful though....

cheers

Samuel D

A difficulty is that cassettes with large sprockets at one end, such as the ones you’re considering, have pointlessly small sprockets at the other end in these days of 10- and 11-speed systems. So you’re usually forced to waste gears (and chainline freedom) on an 11T and 12T sprocket. These are effectively useless for the riding you describe (and much else).

Still, your basic idea that larger sprockets make larger chainrings viable is self-evidently true. Whether it works well for you depends on the fine detail.

I run a somewhat similar set-up in that I have 38T and 49T chainrings with an 8-speed 13–26T cassette. This gives close ratios everywhere despite the low sprocket count, a top gear designed to be used regularly, a low enough bottom gear for my purposes (this is highly personal), and a good chain angle most of the time. However, I often ride in groups. When I’m on my own on a long ride, the chain angle isn’t ideal because then my cruising speed is too low, especially into the wind. Still, it’s better than the typical compact-double arrangement, and most cyclists don’t recognise a problem with that.

You can optimise gearing to the nth degree but it will always be a compromise. When I’m blasting around Longchamp with packs of marauding racers, I’d prefer a 53T chainring for the extra efficiency and better chain angle that would bring. But it would be hopelessly large the rest of time. On solo rides I’d prefer a 46T. The compromise I have is about the best I can do but it remains a compromise.

cygnet

  • I'm part of the association
Some numbers assuming 5% minimum change in gear ratio is 'usable' and excluding Big-big and Small-small combinations

50/34 with SRAM 10sp 11-28 cassette
14 'usable' combinations, Front shifting once for a linear progression
Range ~90 gear inches
Minimum ~33"
Total no of combinations between 60 and 80": 7, Front Shift required: 5

50/38 with Shimano 10sp 12-30 cassette
14 'usable' combinations, Front shift 3 times
Range ~78 gear inches
Minimum ~34"
Total no of combinations between 60 and 80": 7, Front Shift required: 5
 
53/39 with Shimano 10sp 12-30 cassette
13 'usable' combinations, Front shift 3 times
Range ~84 gear inches
Minimum ~35"
Total no of combinations between 60 and 80": 5, Front Shift required: 3

If you want to run nine gears in the big ring and 1 "granny gear" then
50/38 with 30t rear has a minimum of ~34" and a Big ring range of 50-112"
50/34 with 28t rear has a minimum of ~33" and a Big ring range of 54-123"

Just using the big ring works up to 17t for all options, then you start skipping gear combinations that would be available by using the small ring.
I Said, I've Got A Big Stick

Hi again all.

First can I say i'm staggered by how helpful people on this forum are. Thank you so much!

Cygnet; i'm not sure how you managed to calculate those options so quickly, but that is excellent information.

One reason for looking at this wide range rear + non-compact front option is that I have in the parts bin a nice pair of DA-7700 9 speed downtube shifters and a matching DA7700 chainset with 38 and 53 rings.

What i'm thinking of based on your comments is just swapping out the big ring for a 46, and then using a 12-30 cassette with an appropriate rear mech (9 speed MTB or taking a punt on using a 10 speed RD5701 - see my other thread :-))

So that would give me a Minimum ~34" (OK for me at 75kg plus bike on most hills) without needing to buy a new compact chainset.  Yes, i could eBay off all my classic DA stuff and swap for new compact, but it seems a shame. 7700 is such quality kit, and I really like 9 speed.

Bruce: The cross chaining thing is something I was nervous about - but would I be cross-chaining more with this setup than with a 50/34 and 11-28? I'm not sure... especially if I were to drop the big ring to a 46T.

Samuel D

Your idea sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Having the chainrings more similarly sized makes for much smoother shifting between them when the terrain does demand that. Often you don’t even need to double shift, instead merely allowing the cadence to drift a bit farther away from your preference before shifting at the front. And if you’re forced into cruising on the small chainring, a 38T or 39T ring is considerably more efficient and pleasant than a 34T.

Thanks Sam.

Would you use a 'compact' or 'standard' front mech with a 46/38 setup?? Standard I suppose?

This must be quite a common chainring setup for CX riders I would have thought.

50, 38, 12-30 vs (custom) 50, 38, 13-30 compared here

http://www.ritzelrechner.de/?GR=DERS&KB=38,50&RZ=12,13,14,15,17,19,21,24,27,30&UF=2150&TF=90&SL=2.6&UN=MPH&DV=gearInches&GR2=DERS&KB2=38,50&RZ2=25,13,15,23,17,19,21,16,27,30&UF2=2150

The latter sacrifices a couple of the high gears (but still leaves you with one for pedalling downhills if you want to) in return for a couple of useful middling ratios and an improved chainline (assuming that you spend a lot of time on gears around 70" or so).

The above is meant to show what (quite small) changes to standard cassettes can mean in terms of having more useful gears where you might need them.

cheers

Interestingly I just came across these 2 articles which seem to support the idea of larger chainrings with a wide range cassette.

One interesting point is that wide range cassettes with a double front are more viable with 10/11 speed setups because there can be smaller gear jumps at the back. I suppose this is one reason mid-compact fronts are becoming more viable now.

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/videos/cycling-tech/compact-chainset-dead

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/product-news/is-it-the-end-for-the-34t-chainring-171057

My idea of using a non-compact 38 ring with a 12-30 will get me pretty close to this 11-28 + 'mid compact' gearing model, although with slightly wider gaps in gearing.

Personally I think the 'standard' 52T outer ring of the 'mid compact' is all about ego though!

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
My first PBP was ridden with 50-38 rings and 12-24 7sp cogs. That same bike now has 52-42-30 rings and 13-26 cogs. Virtually all flatland riding is in the big ring. Some of us just roll the legs over a little slowly while avoiding 11t cogs.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Samuel D

Would you use a 'compact' or 'standard' front mech with a 46/38 setup?? Standard I suppose?

With only two chainrings and friction front shifting as you intend, most derailleurs will do the job, but Shimano gives comprehensive specifications for this kind of thing in this PDF document (page 160 onwards for road derailleurs).

IIRC there was an article in a magazine (Bicycling (USA)?) a while back that delved into the pros and cons of using transmissions with larger sprockets. I can't find it online right now; anyone got a link?

Anyway ISTR that (provided you could buy mechs to handle the sprockets and chainrings required) the only actual downside was extra weight, but that the increase in efficiency was sufficient to overcome that even on rather hilly terrain.

cheers