Author Topic: A rather strange Cyclists Dismount Sign  (Read 4020 times)

anth

A rather strange Cyclists Dismount Sign
« on: 30 November, 2009, 02:04:14 pm »


Yay! Princes Street has been re-opened. But caveated by a big 'hmmmmm' with regard to cycling provision.

I was never a fan of the old cycle lane, which kept you at the left, having buses pulling in front of you to disgorge at the bus stops also located there. I could never really understand why they didn't put a lane against the central dividing reservation.

Of course that's not really possible now because the tram lines are there. And that might explain why the re-opened street has NO cycle lanes. Yep, the main straight wide busy commuter route road in the city has no cycling provision. Actually, I tell a lie, there are a few ASLs with cycle reservoirs. So it doesn't appear that they ran out of time to put in the lanes. Equally strangely one (just one) of the reservoirs is tarmacced in red (which I was under the impression they'd decided to stop doing, the red being a threat to World Heritage status in a way that the new giant pillars in the centre of the street for the tram power lines aren't...).

Another very odd bit of street furniture is found at the bottom of the Mound as you're heading to cross Princes Street. You're no longer allowed to turn left onto the street, which isn't really the odd thing. Rather it's the 'Cyclists Dismount' sign, just before you get to another ASL/cycle reservoir. The implication is that you're not allowed to ride you bike on Princes Street at all, even to go across it, and must walk. But then why the reservoir? It's just... Out of place...

And then there's the short section of Princes Street west of the National Gallery on which the inside lane in both directions has been cobbled. Deliberately so given they weren't there before. It's something of a 'feature'. So in overtaking stationary buses (of which there are many, as anyone who has travelled on Princes Street in rush hour will know) not only do you have to make sure that your wheels don't get trapped in the lines themselves (the gap is easily wide enough for a road bike tyre) but you'll find yourself on some rather uneven looking cobbles. It should make for some excitement, especially in the wet.

As before I tihnk I'll just keep avoiding riding on Princes Street, whcih may be the intention (as with Sir Harry Lauder Road the interchanges were deliberately engineered to discourage cycling (got that from the horse's mouth) rather than going down the more difficult route of a traffic order such as exists for the bypass).

I realise this will all sound like cycling whingeing, but if you take into account the council promising on numerous occasions to turn Edinburgh into a 'model cycling city' and signing up to remarkably high aspirations for cycle use by 2020, those nice words never seem to match up on the ground. And this is just one more example.

RJ

  • Droll rat
Re: A rather strange Cyclists Dismount Sign
« Reply #1 on: 30 November, 2009, 05:40:12 pm »
Hmmm.  So what is a cyclist descending the Mound at speed expected to do at the bottom when confronted by a green signal and a "cyclists dismount" sign?

If it's safe for motor vehicles to cross Princes St from the Mound to Hanover St, it must surely be safe for a mounted cyclist to do so too  ???

More chatter on the SPOKES forum here


Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: A rather strange Cyclists Dismount Sign
« Reply #2 on: 30 November, 2009, 05:43:28 pm »
Perhaps that the sign for the pavement cyclists?   ;)
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: A rather strange Cyclists Dismount Sign
« Reply #3 on: 30 November, 2009, 05:43:55 pm »
IIRC "Cyclists Dismount" signs are advisory and therefore can be safely ignored.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

RJ

  • Droll rat
Re: A rather strange Cyclists Dismount Sign
« Reply #4 on: 30 November, 2009, 05:49:04 pm »
IIRC "Cyclists Dismount" signs are advisory and therefore can be safely ignored.

But what will the motons expect ??  :-\

Re: A rather strange Cyclists Dismount Sign
« Reply #5 on: 30 November, 2009, 09:07:00 pm »

[/quote]

But what will the motons expect ??  :-\
[/quote]

Do you think they will notice??

rower40

  • Not my boat. Now sold.
Re: A rather strange Cyclists Dismount Sign
« Reply #6 on: 30 November, 2009, 09:21:38 pm »
That sign is just crying out for one of two things:

1) Civil Obedience.
5 or more cyclists come to a stop in the ASL box, ahead of (of preference) a White Van or black taxi.  All dismount.  Wait for the light to turn green, walk across the road en masse, then remount and revert to two-abreast riding.

2) A similar-size and similar-font sign, on the same post, that states "Motorists Get Out And Push"
Be Naughty; save Santa a trip

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: A rather strange Cyclists Dismount Sign
« Reply #7 on: 30 November, 2009, 09:33:53 pm »
:thumbsup:
Getting there...

Re: A rather strange Cyclists Dismount Sign
« Reply #8 on: 30 November, 2009, 09:48:58 pm »
...  Yep, the main straight wide busy commuter route road in the city has no cycling provision. ...

 ??? ??? ??? ???

All roads have cycling provision whilst a fewer number of roads have paint splattered down to encourage cyclists to hug the gutter.



Yes the dismount sign might be strange, but isn't it better now that you can use the entire carriageway and not worry about motorists complaining that you're not cycling where the road planners think cyclists need to be?

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: A rather strange Cyclists Dismount Sign
« Reply #9 on: 30 November, 2009, 09:57:00 pm »
That sign is just crying out for one of two things:

1) Civil Obedience.
5 or more cyclists come to a stop in the ASL box, ahead of (of preference) a White Van or black taxi.  All dismount.  Wait for the light to turn green, walk across the road en masse, then remount and revert to two-abreast riding.

2) A similar-size and similar-font sign, on the same post, that states "Motorists Get Out And Push"

Course, number three would be just to remove it.
Getting there...

Eccentrica Gallumbits

  • Rock 'n' roll and brew, rock 'n' roll and brew...
Re: A rather strange Cyclists Dismount Sign
« Reply #10 on: 30 November, 2009, 09:59:18 pm »

All roads have cycling provision whilst a fewer number of roads have paint splattered down to encourage cyclists to hug the gutter.

Yes the dismount sign might be strange, but isn't it better now that you can use the entire carriageway and not worry about motorists complaining that you're not cycling where the road planners think cyclists need to be?

It's now very difficult to use the entire carriageway though, as half of it is cobbled (and didn't used to be) and half of it has tram lines in it (and don't get me started on that).

That sign's crazy. Anth, I can email it all to the cycling officer and the sustainable transport guy if you like, but I'm not back in the office till Monday.


That sign is just crying out for one of two things:

1) Civil Obedience.
5 or more cyclists come to a stop in the ASL box, ahead of (of preference) a White Van or black taxi.  All dismount.  Wait for the light to turn green, walk across the road en masse, then remount and revert to two-abreast riding.

I bet between here, CTC, Spokes and the new CityCyclingEdinburgh fora, we could coordinate that and spend all Saturday afternoon doing it. Anyone up for it?
My feminist marxist dialectic brings all the boys to the yard.


Rig of Jarkness

  • An Englishman abroad
Re: A rather strange Cyclists Dismount Sign
« Reply #11 on: 30 November, 2009, 10:04:57 pm »
I've despatched my email on the subject to the council.  Hopefully if enough do likewise they'll take some notice.

Aero but not dynamic

anth

Re: A rather strange Cyclists Dismount Sign
« Reply #12 on: 01 December, 2009, 12:07:59 am »
...  Yep, the main straight wide busy commuter route road in the city has no cycling provision. ...

 ??? ??? ??? ???

All roads have cycling provision whilst a fewer number of roads have paint splattered down to encourage cyclists to hug the gutter.



Yes the dismount sign might be strange, but isn't it better now that you can use the entire carriageway and not worry about motorists complaining that you're not cycling where the road planners think cyclists need to be?

I kinda meant what Kirst said, but it's also tied into the council stating it wants Edinburgh to be this Model Cycling City. There WAS a cycle lane. Now effective or not it was there - it might have been a sop to the cycling lobby, but it maybe created an impression and expectation that bikes would be there (as an aside Princes Street is only open to buses and taxis). by taking away even this little symbol of bikehood they seem to have let go any pretence at looking to make provision for cyclists.

In theory, yes, you could argue it makes the entire carriageway fair game (as it was anyway) but in practice because of the tramlines, and one section with cobbles, the available width for cyclists has actually been reduced significantly.

It's hard to explain the difference and the nightmare that was and now still is cycling along Princes Street without an in-depth detailing of the street using maps, pointers and powerpoint...  ;)

Re: A rather strange Cyclists Dismount Sign
« Reply #13 on: 01 December, 2009, 12:19:19 am »
OOooooo I do like a discussion with lots of pretty diagramatics.

<pulls up chair and waits for lecture to start>

Eccentrica Gallumbits

  • Rock 'n' roll and brew, rock 'n' roll and brew...
Re: A rather strange Cyclists Dismount Sign
« Reply #14 on: 01 December, 2009, 07:33:52 am »
Hang on, I have a client who collects model buses. He might let us borrow some for extra realism.
My feminist marxist dialectic brings all the boys to the yard.


nicknack

  • Hornblower
Re: A rather strange Cyclists Dismount Sign
« Reply #15 on: 01 December, 2009, 11:18:19 am »
It's now very difficult to use the entire carriageway though, as half of it is cobbled (and didn't used to be) and half of it has tram lines in it (and don't get me started on that).

Just had a weekend in Antwerp where cobbles and tram lines seem to be the norm. Gazillions of cyclists just getting on with it. I suspect quite a large number of European cities are similar. So Edinburgh is obviously trying to be more European.
There's no vibrations, but wait.

TheLurker

  • Goes well with magnolia.
Re: A rather strange Cyclists Dismount Sign
« Reply #16 on: 01 December, 2009, 12:09:38 pm »
<OT>
Ahhh.  I remember that junction with a certain degree of fondness.  I took out my first, and so far only, pedestrian there. The silly sod tried to cross against the pedestrian light while I was flying down from the Mound...
</OT>
Τα πιο όμορφα ταξίδια γίνονται με τις δικές μας δυνάμεις - Φίλοι του Ποδήλατου

RJ

  • Droll rat
Re: A rather strange Cyclists Dismount Sign
« Reply #17 on: 01 December, 2009, 01:54:00 pm »
<OT>
Ahhh.  I remember that junction with a certain degree of fondness.  I took out my first, and so far only, pedestrian there. The silly sod tried to cross against the pedestrian light while I was flying down from the Mound...
</OT>

Not OT at all.  All, in fact, is explained  ;)

iakobski

Re: A rather strange Cyclists Dismount Sign
« Reply #18 on: 01 December, 2009, 02:00:58 pm »
Where are the tram lines in relation to the picture?

RJ

  • Droll rat
Re: A rather strange Cyclists Dismount Sign
« Reply #19 on: 01 December, 2009, 02:07:21 pm »
Sort of perpendicular.  The picture is looking *across* Princes St., at a slight angle.  The tram lines will run *along* Princes St. (left-right/right-left).

Rig of Jarkness

  • An Englishman abroad
Re: A rather strange Cyclists Dismount Sign
« Reply #20 on: 03 December, 2009, 06:57:33 pm »
Good news !  (I hope !)  - I have received the following response from the council -

"I can confirm that the current design prohibits cyclists from turning
from the Mound into Princes Street, because of the reasons you mentioned
below. That said, our comments to the designers requested that cyclist
be able to turn left across the footway behind the pedestrian crossing.
The designers haven't managed to catch up fully with our comments and
therefore the construction doesn't reflect our requirements.

I've already raised this (and a few other issues) with tie ltd to
resolve matters. We should be able to rectify this by dropping a couple
of kerbs and erecting a sign early in the New Year (we want to minimise
any construction work during the Christmas embargo)."

The 'comments below' referred to are "the left turn (and right turn from Hanover Street onto Princes St) has been banned in order to ensure that there is sufficient time for pedestrians to cross Princes St under the protection of the 'green man' at this location"
Aero but not dynamic

anth

Re: A rather strange Cyclists Dismount Sign
« Reply #21 on: 04 December, 2009, 12:03:09 pm »
Good news !  (I hope !)  - I have received the following response from the council -

"I can confirm that the current design prohibits cyclists from turning
from the Mound into Princes Street, because of the reasons you mentioned
below. That said, our comments to the designers requested that cyclist
be able to turn left across the footway behind the pedestrian crossing.
The designers haven't managed to catch up fully with our comments and
therefore the construction doesn't reflect our requirements.

I've already raised this (and a few other issues) with tie ltd to
resolve matters. We should be able to rectify this by dropping a couple
of kerbs and erecting a sign early in the New Year (we want to minimise
any construction work during the Christmas embargo)."

The 'comments below' referred to are "the left turn (and right turn from Hanover Street onto Princes St) has been banned in order to ensure that there is sufficient time for pedestrians to cross Princes St under the protection of the 'green man' at this location"


Interesting... Could I repeat that reply on the citycyclingedinburgh forum?

Rig of Jarkness

  • An Englishman abroad
Re: A rather strange Cyclists Dismount Sign
« Reply #22 on: 04 December, 2009, 05:39:17 pm »
Good news !  (I hope !)  - I have received the following response from the council -

"I can confirm that the current design prohibits cyclists from turning
from the Mound into Princes Street, because of the reasons you mentioned
below. That said, our comments to the designers requested that cyclist
be able to turn left across the footway behind the pedestrian crossing.
The designers haven't managed to catch up fully with our comments and
therefore the construction doesn't reflect our requirements.

I've already raised this (and a few other issues) with tie ltd to
resolve matters. We should be able to rectify this by dropping a couple
of kerbs and erecting a sign early in the New Year (we want to minimise
any construction work during the Christmas embargo)."

The 'comments below' referred to are "the left turn (and right turn from Hanover Street onto Princes St) has been banned in order to ensure that there is sufficient time for pedestrians to cross Princes St under the protection of the 'green man' at this location"


Interesting... Could I repeat that reply on the citycyclingedinburgh forum?

I guess so, its not as if I'm quoting anyone by name.
Aero but not dynamic

anth

Re: A rather strange Cyclists Dismount Sign
« Reply #23 on: 04 December, 2009, 06:34:39 pm »
Good news !  (I hope !)  - I have received the following response from the council -

"I can confirm that the current design prohibits cyclists from turning
from the Mound into Princes Street, because of the reasons you mentioned
below. That said, our comments to the designers requested that cyclist
be able to turn left across the footway behind the pedestrian crossing.
The designers haven't managed to catch up fully with our comments and
therefore the construction doesn't reflect our requirements.

I've already raised this (and a few other issues) with tie ltd to
resolve matters. We should be able to rectify this by dropping a couple
of kerbs and erecting a sign early in the New Year (we want to minimise
any construction work during the Christmas embargo)."

The 'comments below' referred to are "the left turn (and right turn from Hanover Street onto Princes St) has been banned in order to ensure that there is sufficient time for pedestrians to cross Princes St under the protection of the 'green man' at this location"


Interesting... Could I repeat that reply on the citycyclingedinburgh forum?

I guess so, its not as if I'm quoting anyone by name.

In addition there should be an article on this in tomorrow's EN - I got contacted for rentaquote!