Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Freewheeling => The Dark Side => Topic started by: Oxford_Guy on 01 October, 2020, 11:55:24 am
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Hi - after much soul searching, I think I may need to switch to using a recumbent, at least for longer/harder rides, unless the physio work I've been doing for months ends up really making a difference (hasn't so far). I suffer from chronic lower back pain, I've not been completely pain free for about 4 years now, and in the last 6 months it's got much worse and seems to get aggravated by anything but really (non-recumbent) short bike rides.
I regularly see a physio and and osteopath (even acupuncture sometimes). MRI scan doesn't show anything sinister, is probably a muscular issue combined with some mild disc degeneration. I'm 50 and otherwise quite fit, though core is fairly weak (one of the things physio is trying to improve).
I currently ride either my Mercian Strada Speciale road bike (though geometry is relatively relaxed by road bike standards), a Hewitt Cheviot SE tourer or a Brompton M6RX. I've had recent bike fits for both the Mercian and Hewitt. Until recently I could ride about 30-40 miles before getting significant additional pain, but now it's much less than that. This week I've had a really bad pain flare up and not able to cycle at all.
I'm getting fed up with not being able to cycle and losing my fitness, but don't want to agreggravate my back pain. Would switching to a recumbent likely aggravate my back pain less?
Psychologically I think I would prefer something like a mid-racer two wheel recumbent, possibly a bit more sociable when riding with others and not sure I like the idea of being too low to the ground, but I understand that two-wheelers are harder to get used to, especially front wheel drive bikes, like the fantastic-looking Cruzbike S40? I'm guessing the S40 is perhaps not the best "starter" recumbent for a newbie?
Not totally opposed to the idea of trikes, the relatively sporty and foldable ICE Sprint X looks promising.
My main use case would be for 40-60 mile fast day rides/sportives, possibly shorter end of audax and light credit card touring. For shopping and my 4 mile commute (if that ever resumes, still WFH) I can probably still use my Brompton or one of my other bikes, except when pain is really bad. So I would be like looking for something fast-ish, but relatively comfortable, with a small amount of luggage carrying capability. Think audax style, rather than touring.
Any advice/tips gratefully received, assume I know next to nothing about recumbents! BTW I live in Oxford, in case not obvious from my username.
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I suffer lower back pain myself, ranging from always there to shit I can't move when it decides to seize up completely.
I know mine comes from a gym injury and bad posture/core strength etc.
Being a cyclist of many years I am strong posterior and weak anterior muscularly, in as much as my pelvis tilts forward when standing.
Standing too long will make my back ache (and spasm if too long) unless I think about tensing my lower abs and glutes to pull my hips level.
Re recumbents, I have ridden them for years with no issues with my back pain. I have upright bikes also and spent most of last year riding fixed gear all over the place including camping.
Speed on a recumbent comes with practice of course, Balance and riding one the same.
I have a range of recumbents (Ice S trike, Bacchetta Giro, M5 CHR) and have ridden audax on all of them.
Trikes will be slower than most 2 wheelers and harder uphill obviously due to the extra weight.
Bacchetta do a range but the lighter ones are faster. My Giro with 700 wheels I tend to get around a 200 in about 8hrs moving.
The CHR is a very quick bike and the ones I have done recently have been fast!
(200 in 6.40 moving, 300 in 10.40 moving, 400 in 13.40 moving)
It can be a long learning curve changing to recumbents and building the distances up (different muscles etc) but some will pick it up quickly.
A trike can be ridden by anyone as you will only fall off of it if you go mad ;D
The Bacchetta with the adjustable seat is a good starting bike as the seat can be laid back as you get used to the balance.
The CHR took me a while to feel comfortable riding it even though I've been riding recumbents for about 14yrs.
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I'd suggest renting or borrowing one for a day to find out. When I had lower back problems a few years back it hurt to declutch in the car.
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I'd go with a S40, this will meet your needs and can be fitted with a two racks if you wanted to do some touring. It's a great bike which corners well and because of the shorter wheelbase I find more steady at lower speeds.
Don't let the fact that it is a movable bottom bracket put you off, either way you'd need to learn to ride a bike again. There are some recommended drills to do which takes about an hour and more detail can be found over on their website.
The only thing going against would be the import duty and tax comes in at around £600 on top of the cost price (based on exchange rate). I don't believe there are any dealers in the UK so you wold have to buy direct from the USA. It's a shame you cannot fly over there at the moment because of Covid and fly back with the frame as luggage as this would be cheaper. Having said that shipping is fairly rapid, when I bought mine it took a week and a bit for the frame to arrive.
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In theory, could you hook the S40 up to a wheel off turbo (would have to be the front wheel, obviously!)? I have an Elite Direto.
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I rode a few audaxes on a highracer-style recumbent, and provided it was on the flat found it pretty sociable with the uprights. Very comfortable cruising machine. There is no need to go for something heavy and suspended if you want to audax or credit-card tour. Not tried a front-driven one, but would love to. ;D
I've not had back trouble on an upright bike, but I will say I noticed on long car journeys that the typical car seat is less comfortable after 2 hours than I am after 8 hours on the recumbent hardshell seat.
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In theory, could you hook the S40 up to a wheel off turbo (would have to be the front wheel, obviously!)? I have an Elite Direto.
Yes you can do this.
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I'd go with a S40, this will meet your needs and can be fitted with a two racks if you wanted to do some touring. It's a great bike which corners well and because of the shorter wheelbase I find more steady at lower speeds.
Don't let the fact that it is a movable bottom bracket put you off, either way you'd need to learn to ride a bike again. There are some recommended drills to do which takes about an hour and more detail can be found over on their website.
The only thing going against would be the import duty and tax comes in at around £600 on top of the cost price (based on exchange rate). I don't believe there are any dealers in the UK so you wold have to buy direct from the USA. It's a shame you cannot fly over there at the moment because of Covid and fly back with the frame as luggage as this would be cheaper. Having said that shipping is fairly rapid, when I bought mine it took a week and a bit for the frame to arrive.
Thsi is what I did, had it delivered to one of our US offices when I was over there.
It was my third recumbent ICE B2 - M5 M-Racer - S40. S40 was the easiest to learn to ride, I never felt really comfortable on the M5. I have a StacZero Halcyon which I just move to the other end of the bike when I have the S40 on it, only issue is I need to change the wheel as I my usual Exal has steel-pinned rim which the StacZero doesn't like.
To the OP - re back pain. My rationale for recumbenting was upper back and neck pain, which is definitely alleviated.
Since being Smidsy'd two years ago resulting in a now repaired pelvic fracture, and not yet sorted lower back pain (MRI awaited). I've been in a virtual TT league this year, and hard efforts on the S40 have aggravated that just as much as hard efforts on the roadbike. Audax pace efforts have been OK. I guess I'm trying to say you should be abel to expect some relief, but don't expect a miracle. Get doing that core work - ten years of yoga and regular core weight sessions have probably helped me quite a bit.
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Thanks LMT and ElyDave about the info. about being able to use an S40 with a turbo, and also for the other information (ElyDave) - I'm sorely tempted by the S40 now, though would probably need to let one of my other bikes go (the Mercian would be the sensible choice to let go, but is the one I love the most...).
I'm not expecting it to make a recumbent make all my back problems go away, as I still experience some back pain these days even when not cycling, but am thinking it would at least aggravate things less and enable me to ride at a reasonable distance and speed without being in lots of pain for days afterwards. I will certainly continue with the physio (and yoga / Pilates etc., which I've also been doing).
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My usual advice is to buy some sort of easily obtained middle-of-the-road touringish bike second hand, and learn to ride a recumbent on it while working out what does and doesn't work for you (seats, steering, that sort of thing), then you can make a more informed decision on what you actually want, and sell it on / commit n+1.
I've no idea about back pain, but it's probably worth getting some hardshell *and* mesh seat experience to find out what works best.
Agree that the S40 sounds like the right sort of thing for the type of riding you're thinking of.
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I don't know if the rans rocket is still being made but I found it a good climbing machine and very comfortable. Made in the USA and would probably have to be imported :)
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Rans Rocket, lightning P38, were both on my list of possibles, as was the Schlitter Encore until they went stupid with both price and availability.
Try lots is always good advice
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I don't know if the rans rocket is still being made but I found it a good climbing machine and very comfortable. Made in the USA and would probably have to be imported :)
Looks like RANS are out of the SWB market altogether, as their webby SCIENCE shows only LWB, tandems and those oddball crank-forward things.
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http://forum.bhpc.org.uk/performer-highracer_topic7137.html
£500 gets you a highracer (more sociable for riding with others) and a tailbox. I think Kim's advice is good, though, if you can find something budget.
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http://forum.bhpc.org.uk/performer-highracer_topic7137.html
£500 gets you a highracer (more sociable for riding with others) and a tailbox. I think Kim's advice is good, though, if you can find something budget.
Think I definitely want a highracer, partly for that reason, but also to be seen and to be able to see the countryside better. Would prefer something with 700c wheels ideally - there is a Performer model available with them, apparently: https://www.performercycles.com/high-racer-700c/
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My usual advice is to buy some sort of easily obtained middle-of-the-road touringish bike second hand, and learn to ride a recumbent on it while working out what does and doesn't work for you (seats, steering, that sort of thing), then you can make a more informed decision on what you actually want, and sell it on / commit n+1.
I've no idea about back pain, but it's probably worth getting some hardshell *and* mesh seat experience to find out what works best.
Agree that the S40 sounds like the right sort of thing for the type of riding you're thinking of.
My only concern with the S40 is that, whilst the FWD moving bottom bracket design makes hill climbing easier (and for a much nicer chainline), I've read that they can be harder to learn than a RWD recumbent, partly because your pedaling affects the steering...
An perhaps easier to ride alternative (though with less luggage carry capability) might be the Pelso Brevet, good review here: https://recumbent-cyclist.com/bikes/pelso-brevet/ (though current supplies seem sold out)
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As for my backpain, I've had an MRI, didn't really show anything significant other than some mild disc degeneration (that many people without pain my age would have). My osteopath says "The initial diagnosis in 2017 was one of Lumbosacral junction disc degeneration which has by now stabilised. This present presentation is initiated higher up at the thoracolumbar junction with seems to get restricted thus not allowing the lumbar spine to transfer it’s anterior posterior motion into rotation in the thoracic spine. This means muscles such as the quadrates lumbarum and a raft of muscles that fill the thoraco-lumbar fascia become less pliable. The result of that is that you are loading the base of the back more."
My physio has translated this to me as "basically what he's saying is that your mid back is bunged up and not moving, therefore your lower back is taking the brunt of it making the lower back and hip flexors tighter... all the things we've been working on - - QL, Psoas, Illiacus (low back and hip flexor muscles) - reducing tension, making more pliable and increasing their capacity
- Improving thoracic (mid back) mobility."
I've been doing physio for months, making some progress I think, but it's slow going and also have had a number of setbacks, and riding my "normal" bikes (even my quite upright Brompton) has caused some of those.
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An perhaps easier to ride alternative (though with less luggage carry capability) might be the Pelso Brevet, good review here: https://recumbent-cyclist.com/bikes/pelso-brevet/ (though current supplies seem sold out)
I can vouch for my almost but not quite total inability to catch up with John Lucian on his under track racing conditions. :D
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That Pelso Brevet looks remarkably similar to the equally unobtainable (in europe) Schlitter encore.
For twin 700c highlanders, check that your leg length is sufficient first, to be able to get a foot down easily
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That Pelso Brevet looks remarkably similar to the equally unobtainable (in europe) Schlitter encore.
For twin 700c highlanders, check that your leg length is sufficient first, to be able to get a foot down easily
Good point, I'm relatively short (172cm / 5' 8")
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That Pelso Brevet looks remarkably similar to the equally unobtainable (in europe) Schlitter encore.
For twin 700c highlanders, check that your leg length is sufficient first, to be able to get a foot down easily
There is a direct connection between Pelso and John Schlitter. Think the guys behind Pelso used to manufacturer the Encore on behalf of Schlitter in Europe or something like that,
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Rans Rocket, lightning P38, were both on my list of possibles, as was the Schlitter Encore until they went stupid with both price and availability.
Try lots is always good advice
The P38 frameset is the same price as the S40 frameset. Like the S40 no dealers in UK so you’d have to bring back as luggage or import yourself. Importing isn’t hard but will add approx £300 to the price. Rarely older versions come up second hand in UK.
The P38 is a good climber I’m faster uphill on it than my road bike now. At least round Hertfordshire / Essex way I am. It’s not as aerodynamic as some of the other bikes mentioned, as you’re sat more upright, but still better than a road bike. But a plus side of that is that it is hardly affected by strong side gusts of wind at all. It’s also good at slow speed manoeuvres, such as cycle infrastructure. Rolling through roads junctions like you would with a road bike is also good as you aren’t so laid back you need to stop and sit up to be able to see. It has fittings for two water bottle cages (under seat), mud guards, rack, and they will braze a light fitting on the derailleur post at no extra charge.
I did my first 300km audax on it last weekend in those winds, and at the end, it was just tired legs and nothing more.
As Kim says, you may want to get something cheap second hand before deciding if you want a more expensive “performance” recumbent.
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Pelso brevet is going to be available again shortly, Laid Back bikes in Edinburgh imports them and could advise on sizing and availability. As it happens I have one on order as my N+ 1 Christmas present.
It has a relatively low seat height because of the bend in the frame, the measurements are on their website (pelsobrevet.com). However as others have said, best to try out using a cheaper second hand recumbent before taking the plunge, it took me a few months to get used to the different riding technique involved and also decide on what sort of set up would suit me best. There are a lot more options than with conventional diamond frame bikes.
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Rans Rocket, lightning P38, were both on my list of possibles, as was the Schlitter Encore until they went stupid with both price and availability.
Try lots is always good advice
The P38 frameset is the same price as the S40 frameset. Like the S40 no dealers in UK so you’d have to bring back as luggage or import yourself. Importing isn’t hard but will add approx £300 to the price. Rarely older versions come up second hand in UK.
Alternatively, I suppose, one could fly to USA with a BSO as luggage, and return with a recumbent BSO as luggage, who's going to look in the box. Just use it a bit on dusty trails with a sticker or two (UK ones taken out with you) .......More than one way to skin a wabbit!
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To save cash you can, or could, claim to be a journalist and that the bike frame in your suitcase is a test model which BRITISH punters are desperate to read about. This probably works better if you actually are a cycling journalist like for eg a Mr R Ballantine who, allegedly, pulled this trick more than once.
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That Performer is a bargain.
I would check to see if recumbent riding helps your back before you spend serious money on one. I don't know if you could discover that in a day or whether you'd be better off just experimenting with adjusting the seat on a bike you can ride regularly. I have tight hip flexors that have stopped me riding my bikes for the last few months - when I switched to my homebrew recumbent trike at the start of the year it made no difference to the hip flexors but gave me neck ache as well (probably down to the terrible excuse for a seat - I took it apart to change things and it's still in pieces, otherwise you could have a go). There are a couple of recumbent riders around, but I don't know if any of the Oxford shops have any recumbent knowledge, if I had to guess one it would be Warlands as they do all manner of interesting bikes. Otherwise you'll have to make the pilgrimage to Ely - not something I've got a round to doing yet.
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re the hip flexors, this is a significant part of my problem.
Upwrong = better hip flexors, lower back limited to 2 hours
S40 = hip flexors hurt more, lower back better, 3 hours taking it easy,
1 hour if ridden hard in either case
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That Performer is a bargain.
I would check to see if recumbent riding helps your back before you spend serious money on one. I don't know if you could discover that in a day or whether you'd be better off just experimenting with adjusting the seat on a bike you can ride regularly. I have tight hip flexors that have stopped me riding my bikes for the last few months - when I switched to my homebrew recumbent trike at the start of the year it made no difference to the hip flexors but gave me neck ache as well (probably down to the terrible excuse for a seat - I took it apart to change things and it's still in pieces, otherwise you could have a go). There are a couple of recumbent riders around, but I don't know if any of the Oxford shops have any recumbent knowledge, if I had to guess one it would be Warlands as they do all manner of interesting bikes. Otherwise you'll have to make the pilgrimage to Ely - not something I've got a round to doing yet.
Dunno about that, looking at the bike it looks a rip off of an old Low Baron. Which suffered from frame cracks around the headset/boom area before the design was changed to weld in a gusset. At least you get a nice tail box.
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Rans Rocket, lightning P38, were both on my list of possibles, as was the Schlitter Encore until they went stupid with both price and availability.
Try lots is always good advice
The P38 frameset is the same price as the S40 frameset. Like the S40 no dealers in UK so you’d have to bring back as luggage or import yourself. Importing isn’t hard but will add approx £300 to the price. Rarely older versions come up second hand in UK.
Alternatively, I suppose, one could fly to USA with a BSO as luggage, and return with a recumbent BSO as luggage, who's going to look in the box. Just use it a bit on dusty trails with a sticker or two (UK ones taken out with you) .......More than one way to skin a wabbit!
Other than the pleasure derived from seeing Trumpingtonia at first hand would the cost of the trip not be at least as much as the carriage and importation costs? (Sorrty to be such a killjoy!)
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Rans Rocket, lightning P38, were both on my list of possibles, as was the Schlitter Encore until they went stupid with both price and availability.
Try lots is always good advice
The P38 frameset is the same price as the S40 frameset. Like the S40 no dealers in UK so you’d have to bring back as luggage or import yourself. Importing isn’t hard but will add approx £300 to the price. Rarely older versions come up second hand in UK.
Alternatively, I suppose, one could fly to USA with a BSO as luggage, and return with a recumbent BSO as luggage, who's going to look in the box. Just use it a bit on dusty trails with a sticker or two (UK ones taken out with you) .......More than one way to skin a wabbit!
Other than the pleasure derived from seeing Trumpingtonia at first hand would the cost of the trip not be at least as much as the carriage and importation costs? (Sorrty to be such a killjoy!)
Yes but you'd actually be able to rideit out there, (providing it was a complete bike) and have a wee tour, say along the Ventura Highway, or anywhere,
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That Performer is a bargain.
Dunno about that, looking at the bike it looks a rip off of an old Low Baron. Which suffered from frame cracks around the headset/boom area before the design was changed to weld in a gusset. At least you get a nice tail box.
I had the SAKI version of that Performer. Bought it as a frame kit and added my own gears, wheels, chain etc. It's very light but was more than strong enough for my weight mainly on country lanes - so I gave it a fairly stern test over about 4 years. It was a bargain and I covered several thousand miles on it. I'm at the top end of its weight capacity and had absolutely no issues with it at all. Tom OTP now has it as I had age issues and had to move it on. I still have a 2004 Performer 26/20 recumbent and its similarly well engineered and has given me almost no problems at all. I had a broken hub when changing a cassette, but that's all.
IMHO, they are very good bikes, well engineered, and Christine at the factory will sell you whatever you need, and have it delivered very quickly. These guys know what customer service is. Recumbents are a very small part of their business, they make vast numbers of DF bikes for the major names under subcontract AIUI.
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If they’re good enough to win RAAM on there can’t be a lot wrong with them there Performer things.
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That Pelso Brevet looks remarkably similar to the equally unobtainable (in europe) Schlitter encore.
There’s a Schlitter Encore for sale on the ‘bay at the moment. Not cheap though. It’s being sold by the same fellow who I bought my Orbit from and I saw it when I went to collect my bike. Very, very nice but (luckily!) too big for me.
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I seem to remember them being made to order when I looked into it?
Cant seem to see that one on the bay of thieves, so it may have gone already.
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I seem to remember them being made to order when I looked into it?
Cant seem to see that one on the bay of thieves, so it may have gone already.
It’s still on there (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/164414001950)- the seller isn’t very good at creating compelling, descriptive titles for his auctions. IIRC mine was advertised as something like ‘90s recumbent bike’ ;D
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I seem to remember them being made to order when I looked into it?
Cant seem to see that one on the bay of thieves, so it may have gone already.
It’s still on there (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/164414001950)- the seller isn’t very good at creating compelling, descriptive titles for his auctions. IIRC mine was advertised as something like ‘90s recumbent bike’ ;D
Looks nice, but the seller says "I am 181cms, would suit plus or minus 5 cams on height", I'm only 172cm (5'8"), with relatively short legs, so would probably be too big for me
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re the hip flexors, this is a significant part of my problem.
Upwrong = better hip flexors, lower back limited to 2 hours
S40 = hip flexors hurt more, lower back better, 3 hours taking it easy,
1 hour if ridden hard in either case
Riding my normal bikes, it's only increased lower back pain I get (for the last 4 years I have some lower back pain all the time off the bike), though occasionally do get neck pain as well. My hip flexors may well be tight, but they don't hurt directly.
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Looks nice, but the seller says "I am 181cms, would suit plus or minus 5 cams on height", I'm only 172cm (5'8"), with relatively short legs, so would probably be too big for me
:(
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Right size for me and conveniently soooo far beyond my budget that it didn't even make me blink.
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I see reggieboy is selling a Nazca Gaucho - if it fits, I might be interested in that, I think I read somewhere that they're relatively easy to ride:
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=117043.0
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I seem to remember them being made to order when I looked into it?
Cant seem to see that one on the bay of thieves, so it may have gone already.
It’s still on there (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/164414001950)- the seller isn’t very good at creating compelling, descriptive titles for his auctions. IIRC mine was advertised as something like ‘90s recumbent bike’ ;D
Listed under saddles, no wonder I couldn't find it
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re the hip flexors, this is a significant part of my problem.
Upwrong = better hip flexors, lower back limited to 2 hours
S40 = hip flexors hurt more, lower back better, 3 hours taking it easy,
1 hour if ridden hard in either case
Riding my normal bikes, it's only increased lower back pain I get (for the last 4 years I have some lower back pain all the time off the bike), though occasionally do get neck pain as well. My hip flexors may well be tight, but they don't hurt directly.
I think I compensated massively with hip flexor and lower back when walking with a stick for 8 weeks. Nearly two years later I now struggle to sit for more than half an hour at a time and spend my work day stood at my adjustable desk. I am in pain every day and have been close to breaking out my stock of decent painkillers several times. Moral of this story, don't get run over.
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re the hip flexors, this is a significant part of my problem.
Upwrong = better hip flexors, lower back limited to 2 hours
S40 = hip flexors hurt more, lower back better, 3 hours taking it easy,
1 hour if ridden hard in either case
Riding my normal bikes, it's only increased lower back pain I get (for the last 4 years I have some lower back pain all the time off the bike), though occasionally do get neck pain as well. My hip flexors may well be tight, but they don't hurt directly.
I think I compensated massively with hip flexor and lower back when walking with a stick for 8 weeks. Nearly two years later I now struggle to sit for more than half an hour at a time and spend my work day stood at my adjustable desk. I am in pain every day and have been close to breaking out my stock of decent painkillers several times. Moral of this story, don't get run over.
When working, I have to alternate about every 45 minutes between a sitting and standing desk. When the lockdown hit about the first thing I did was to buy a standing desk adapter for my home working setup. I haven't known a day without some pain for over 4 years and was having to dose up on pain killers before going on any significant longer ride, but that's not really sustainable.
ElyDave - how do you find the S40? Still sorely tempted by one of these, though sounds like there is quite a learning curve. Should fit my shortish height at least
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Like ElyDave, I too have an S40, but more recently. Before that I leant on the V2k, or sofrider from the same company. Moving bottom bracket is just another learning curve. I bought the framest sight unseen and came back with it in a box. The S40 I imported because coronalurgi.
It took me about 60 miles to feel really confident in going where I wanted and about 600 to be completely instinctive. Your learning curve will be directly proportional to your (positive) attitude towards the new thing.
I'm selling the V2k now, go see the classifieds, but if you can make the trip to near Bath feel free to come round and try it out anyway. I will suggest you consider more reclined bikes in general to spread the weight and stop your spine being stacked up vertically.
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TBH, of the three I've owned, the M5 M-Racer was by far the steepest learning curve. On that it was probably >1000 miles before I felt any degree of comfort. The S40 was far less twitchier. The only unusual part of the learning curve is the potential for pedal steer, which is at it's greatest when setting off. The trick is to learn the right amount of counter pressure with the opposite hand. That's the bit that takes a couple of hundred miles to become instinctive. It didn't really take that long tbh, I had mine built for the end of March and I was touring around Scotland and Cumbria across the first weekend in August
I really think that the mystery of an MBB is massively overblown, mostly by those who've never tried it for more than 200yds.
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I think the MBB thing came mostly from the Flevobike, on which the handlebars are mainly there to provide a home for brake and gear controls. Miss von Brandenburg once witnessed a bloke who claimed no prior recumbent experience just get on a Flevobike and ride merrily away, but most people spend a Several of hours falling off before they even manage a full turn of the pedals.
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Had any test rides yet? If so, how did you get on?
It would seem that the Schlitter Freestyle is the new bees knees for someone who isn't too tall and wants to do sportives and audaxes. Review and pictures here:
https://www.recumbent.news/2020/07/07/the-indomitable-schlitter-bikes-freestyle/ (https://www.recumbent.news/2020/07/07/the-indomitable-schlitter-bikes-freestyle/)
Another review here, https://www.bentrideronline.com/?p=12646 (https://www.bentrideronline.com/?p=12646)
And another here, https://www.redpearlracing.com/single-post/2020/02/12/Schlitter-Freestyle-Review (https://www.redpearlracing.com/single-post/2020/02/12/Schlitter-Freestyle-Review)
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Had any test rides yet? If so, how did you get on?
The only actual test ride I've head so far was a week ago where I had a fairly brief go on a track on a pretty low-end, heavy trike (KMX cart) at Wheels for All - Oxford (https://www.wfaoxford.org/), but that did seem to confirm that riding recumbent style didn't seem to aggravate my lower back condition, which is *very* sensitive at the moment (whereas the two mile ride to the track on my Brompton did aggravate it). It did also confirm, though, though I wasn't so keen on being so low to the ground nor the way a trike steers - so think a two wheel high or mid racer is more what I'm interested in.
I did, however, also meet up last Sunday with a local two-wheeled recumbent rider who has a 700c wheeled Pelso Brever (https://www.pelsobrevet.com/) high racer, I had a good chat with him and sat in the bike, though it was attached to a turbo at the time and, although I could reach the ground with my feet, the way it was setup was far too long for me (I think my X-Seam is about 37"). I'm going to meet up with him again tomorrow and see if we can adjust it enough to make it rideable for me for a test ride. I suspect it will still be too large, but we shall see.
It would seem that the Schlitter Freestyle is the new bees knees for someone who isn't too tall and wants to do sportives and audaxes. Review and pictures here:
https://www.recumbent.news/2020/07/07/the-indomitable-schlitter-bikes-freestyle/ (https://www.recumbent.news/2020/07/07/the-indomitable-schlitter-bikes-freestyle/)
Another review here, https://www.bentrideronline.com/?p=12646 (https://www.bentrideronline.com/?p=12646)
And another here, https://www.redpearlracing.com/single-post/2020/02/12/Schlitter-Freestyle-Review (https://www.redpearlracing.com/single-post/2020/02/12/Schlitter-Freestyle-Review)
That does indeed look excellent, the only things that slightly concern me are the reported likelihood of heelstrike for shorter riders and high BB, though I do like the fact that it can use "normal" 700c road bike wheels and that the riding experience is described as feeling "in" the bike, rather than just on top of it.
Is there a UK distributor for Schlitter?
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On the face of it, the Pelso-Brevet and Freestyle look similar, although I'm not sure the Pelso has the fore-aft seat movement which the Freestyle has. Both have extendable booms. Yes, I noted the modest heel strike too. Some people quickly learn to extend the leg in the direction of the tight turn during the turn, some struggle. Short cranks would help.
Doing a personal import on a frameset is quite straightforward, but if you wanted to purchase a complete bike through a dealer then LaidBack bikes might be happy to get one in for you. They seem keen on getting their hands on new models for "evaluation".
I think big wheels, long wheelbases and no suspension is the way to go if you want to be quick. Balance is easier the higher off the ground you are too. That's the dilemma in the bent world if you're not tall. My balance and agility are compromised too so high racers are not an option for me. I had to look at LWBs instead, hence the RANS Stratus XP which I imported as a frameset.
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Agree, personal import of framesets is straight forward.
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On the face of it, the Pelso-Brevet and Freestyle look similar, although I'm not sure the Pelso has the fore-aft seat movement which the Freestyle has.
I think the Pelso may have some fore-aft seat movement, but nothing like as much as the Freestyle, though I'll check tomorrow
Both have extendable booms.
Are you sure? I thought that the boom on the Pelso Brevet was fixed, but available in 350mm / 13.8″ (MEDIUM) or 385mm / 15.2″ (LARGE) lengths - I'll have to ask which one the guy I'm seeing tomorrow has
Yes, I noted the modest heel strike too. Some people quickly learn to extend the leg in the direction of the tight turn during the turn, some struggle. Short cranks would help.
On a DF bike I usually use 170mm cranks, though am okay with 165mm cranks. Who actually makes cranks shorter than 165mm?
Doing a personal import on a frameset is quite straightforward, but if you wanted to purchase a complete bike through a dealer then LaidBack bikes might be happy to get one in for you. They seem keen on getting their hands on new models for "evaluation".
I might drop LaidBack bikes an email, though I guess it's possible one of Oxford's bike shops might be able to build up the bike from a frameset for me, Warlands perhaps, think they've worked on some recumbents before
I think big wheels, long wheelbases and no suspension is the way to go if you want to be quick.
I'd like to be pretty quick on the bike, as want to cycle with some of my roadie friends without holding them back too much
Balance is easier the higher off the ground you are too. That's the dilemma in the bent world if you're not tall. My balance and agility are compromised too so high racers are not an option for me. I had to look at LWBs instead, hence the RANS Stratus XP which I imported as a frameset.
Okay, I think my balance and agility are pretty good, it's just lower back pain (and sometimes neck pain) that's the problem for me when riding - well not just riding, these days I have lower back pain even when not riding, but it's worse when I ride DF bikes.
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Agree, personal import of framesets is straight forward.
The Schlitter website (https://schlitter.bike/freestyle) has an "out of stock" message when I try to access their order form :-(
https://form.jotform.com/202344354234144
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On a DF bike I usually use 170mm cranks, though am okay with 165mm cranks. Who actually makes cranks shorter than 165mm?
You can get a little shorter (160mm, maybe less) from the likes of Spa Cycles and SJS.
I've had various cranks shortened by https://highpath.co.uk/ to good effect. (I've got a leg-length mismatch which causes Achilles problems on recumbents.) Mike Burrows has also been known to shorten cranks.
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Agree, personal import of framesets is straight forward.
The Schlitter website (https://schlitter.bike/freestyle) has an "out of stock" message when I try to access their order form :-(
https://form.jotform.com/202344354234144
Try their interested firm and see what the lead time is?
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Agree, personal import of framesets is straight forward.
That's what I did for Performer Hi-Racer. About 3 weeks from order to delivery. Simples.
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The other thing you can do if you want really short cranks is look at the good quality kids stuff. I know I've seen some 145s, and while I might not be happy to hop a bike about on them at my weight, I would assume they would be find for pedalling forces.
Warlands posted a picture of them trying out an Alleweder on their facebook page. I asked if they sold recumbents and they said no, they didn't have enough space. I would expect them to be able to work on one if you brought it in though...
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BTW today I rode a (size: large!) 700c wheeled Pelso Brevet owned by Rod in Islip, he moved the seat almost all the way forward and the bars most of the way back and it was just about about ride-able for me. I actually got the hang of riding it up and down the road relatively quickly, though wouldn't say I feel "confident", but I could see how with practice that would come. Most importantly, though, riding it didn't seem to aggravate my lower back pain. Clearly the Pelso Brevet was too big for me (I could only just manage a full length pedal stroke, but could fully put my feet on the ground), but it sounds like the Schlitter Freestyle may be a better fit - especially as I asked John Schlitter about this and he said "your height is no problem for the Freestyle. You would end up with the boom cut down around what I call the 11” length, from back of the bottom bracket shell to where the boom gets cut at." Schlitter *are* currently out of stock, but have more framesets in production and on the way soon.
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Sounds promising. I do recommend short cranks when you are specifying the build. I reckon most people our height use them on high bottom bracket bikes, and it's more aerodynamic too ;D
P.S. You are right about the fixed boom on the Pelso. I misinterpreted something I read. The Freestyle looks a bit more accessible to my eyes.
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Sounds promising. I do recommend short cranks when you are specifying the build. I reckon most people our height use them on high bottom bracket bikes, and it's more aerodynamic too ;D
I noticed that for the latest version of the Shimano 105 cranks there is a 160mm version available, so that would be one option. Was thinking of 50/34 11-42 gearing, mixing 105 upfront and 11-speed XT at the back
P.S. You are right about the fixed boom on the Pelso. I misinterpreted something I read. The Freestyle looks a bit more accessible to my eyes.
I think the Freestyle also has a longer range of travel for the seat
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I had a 19" bottom gear on my Performer HiRacer, and that was as low as I'd want to go - it's difficult to keep a balance uphill at a gearing that low. I went for shorter cranks from a std 172mm, down to 160 IIRC, and that's a big help with heel strike, but you do get used to it and it becomes second nature to get the conflicted foot out if the way depending in which way you are steering.
That Schlitter is very like the Performer HiRacer, and I'd recommend that 100% for a frame build at a good price. They are very well engineered and available off the shelf.
My X-seam is 43" so you'd have to take a good bit off the boom, but there's plenty of meat there.
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I had a 19" bottom gear on my Performer HiRacer, and that was as low as I'd want to go - it's difficult to keep a balance uphill at a gearing that low.
Think 50/34 and 11-42 would give a range of about 22" to 123", which should be plenty enough. Even with 11 speed Gaps are a bit bigger than I would like ideally, but I don't really want to go for a triple.
I went for shorter cranks from a std 172mm, down to 160 IIRC, and that's a big help with heel strike, but you do get used to it and it becomes second nature to get the conflicted foot out if the way depending in which way you are steering.
Good to know, as I suspect with my shorter legs I will be encountering this issue, even with shorter cranks
That Schlitter is very like the Performer HiRacer, and I'd recommend that 100% for a frame build at a good price. They are very well engineered and available off the shelf.
My X-seam is 43" so you'd have to take a good bit off the boom, but there's plenty of meat there.
Thanks, good to know.
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I run a 44/11 biggest gear combination on my recumbent and don’t find I’m under geared. I do have a 46 ring replacement sitting in a box but overall I’m quite happy with a 44/11 top gear.
It’s been a long time since I’ve hammered it down a hill. Too many pot holes out there. So I tend to just let the bike roll downhill whilst watching my line once the legs have reached a certain level of spin.
Maybe if I had big powerful legs I’d want a bigger high gear, but mostly I want the low ones for those last uphills when tired at the end of a long audax!
I run a triple 9 speed with bar end shifters set to friction mode.
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That Schlitter is very like the Performer HiRacer,
Looks like higher BB and space for wider tyres on the freestyle; is that all there is?
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That Schlitter is very like the Performer HiRacer,
Looks like higher BB and space for wider tyres on the freestyle; is that all there is?
I imagine John Schlitter designed the Freestyle from scratch. It's notable for the longer wheelbase, horizontal seat mount, seat stay attachment points, tapered headset, internal cabling.
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I run a 44/11 biggest gear combination on my recumbent and don’t find I’m under geared. I do have a 46 ring replacement sitting in a box but overall I’m quite happy with a 44/11 top gear.
It’s been a long time since I’ve hammered it down a hill. Too many pot holes out there. So I tend to just let the bike roll downhill whilst watching my line once the legs have reached a certain level of spin.
That's where a large front wheel and longer wheelbase will give more confidence.
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Think 50/34 and 11-42 would give a range of about 22" to 123", which should be plenty enough. Even with 11 speed Gaps are a bit bigger than I would like ideally, but I don't really want to go for a triple.
You could fit 33/48 rings to your double to lower the gearing a bit. I think you'll be ok with that.
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I run a 44/11 biggest gear combination on my recumbent and don’t find I’m under geared. I do have a 46 ring replacement sitting in a box but overall I’m quite happy with a 44/11 top gear.
It’s been a long time since I’ve hammered it down a hill. Too many pot holes out there. So I tend to just let the bike roll downhill whilst watching my line once the legs have reached a certain level of spin.
That's where a large front wheel and longer wheelbase will give more confidence.
More confidence to crash after hitting a pot hole at speed, and having a blowout. I just don’t see the point of pedalling much beyond 30-35 mph downhill.
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How are the J-bars significantly different from any other superman bars?
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The J-bars are adjustable for reach without affecting angle, and combined width/height without affecting reach. Most superman bars are a fixed geometry and adjustable only at the stem for angle, though some combined height/reach adjustment is available if the stem telescopes.
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Have now put down a deposit for a Schlitter Freestyle with Laid Back bikes in Edinburgh, looks like I will be joining the dark side... Also bought some Scribe Aero Wide+ 42-D wheels for it. Should be fun!
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Excellent. Looking at the photos it certainly seems to have a wide range of adjustment for the seat and bars and the bottom of the seat it pretty low for a high racer.
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Lalalalala not listening... ;)
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Lalalalala not listening... ;)
This does mean I will then have 4 bikes (2 DF and a Brompton, as well as this one), which is arguably one too many...
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If you find it's a solution to back pain then you have 2 DFs too many, which means you need at least one more laidback.
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Lalalalala not listening... ;)
This does mean I will then have 4 bikes (2 DF and a Brompton, as well as this one), which is arguably one too many...
So at least one DF will have to go.
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Lalalalala not listening... ;)
This does mean I will then have 4 bikes (2 DF and a Brompton, as well as this one), which is arguably one too many...
So at least one DF will have to go.
Well one is a 2009 Hewitt Cheviot SE tourer, the other a 2019 Mercian Strada Speciale road bike... Neither would be easy to let go, the Mercian would be the more logical choice, but...
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Once it gets wall mounted it counts as object d'art, not a bike, so I think you're in the clear there.
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Once it gets wall mounted it counts as object d'art, not a bike, so I think you're in the clear there.
O:-)
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Have you decided on the style of bars to get? Tweener bars aka aerosteers are much more "bike-like" than tiller. I've never been able to re-program my brain to be confident with tiller bars. YMMV.
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Have you decided on the style of bars to get? Tweener bars aka aerosteers are much more "bike-like" than tiller. I've never been able to re-program my brain to be confident with tiller bars. YMMV.
Yes, Schlitter Double J Handlebars, which are very adjustable, as shown here:
(https://scontent-lht6-1.cdninstagram.com/v/t51.2885-15/e35/s1080x1080/83100754_146061253050857_4864620446305900385_n.jpg?_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.cdninstagram.com&_nc_cat=105&_nc_ohc=O5hrdr4J6GoAX9K3tIT&_nc_tp=15&oh=186968c3c4c6f52324ff7e0229bf328f&oe=5FC40512) (https://scontent-lht6-1.cdninstagram.com/v/t51.2885-15/e35/s1080x1080/83100754_146061253050857_4864620446305900385_n.jpg?_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.cdninstagram.com&_nc_cat=105&_nc_ohc=O5hrdr4J6GoAX9K3tIT&_nc_tp=15&oh=186968c3c4c6f52324ff7e0229bf328f&oe=5FC40512)
I will be using 11-speed XT M8000 rapid fire shifters and hydraulic brake levers for the controls and XT (long cage) rear derailleur, but Ultegra BR-R8070 Flat Mount disc calipers and R7000 105 (160mm) chainset and front derailleur. Gearing will be 11-42 and 50/34.
I will be getting a Thor seat, but there's a choice of two possible suitable styles, with different seat angles - not sure which to go for - any recommendations?
1) Thor Seat Easy Carbon <http://www.thorseat.eu/en/store/Seat-Easy-Carbon-p139004203 (http://www.thorseat.eu/en/store/Seat-Easy-Carbon-p139004203)> - Recommended degree: Sitting 35°- 60°
2) Thor Seat Sport Carbon <http://www.thorseat.eu/en/store/Seat-Sport-Carbon-p138791037 (http://www.thorseat.eu/en/store/Seat-Sport-Carbon-p138791037)> - Recommended degree: Sitting 15°- 35°
Whilst I don't want a very upright position, as want to be reasonably aero (for riding with my roadie friends) and also not to put too much "stack" weight onto my lower back, I'm not going to be actually racing either (something like the Cruzbike Vendetta V20 (https://cruzbike.com/products/v20) looks way too reclined for me!) and do want a good view of traffic etc., so am thinking probably would would somewhere in the middle, but I'm new to all this! Think "endurance", rather than "race". Perhaps 35-40°??
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Usually it's easier to get your feet down with a narrower "Sport" seat than with a wider "Comfort" seat, so I'd suggest that. You should be ok to start off learning with it set to 40 degrees anyway, but you'd probably need to get it down to 35 degrees or less to stop sliding off the front. Jacquie Schlitter in the photo probably has hers around 27 degrees or less. She looks like she needs that headrest (which is actually a neck rest).
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Usually it's easier to get your feet down with a narrower "Sport" seat than with a wider "Comfort" seat, so I'd suggest that.
I hadn't thought of that, but that is a very good point!
You should be ok to start off learning with it set to 40 degrees anyway, but you'd probably need to get it down to 35 degrees or less to stop sliding off the front.
I think this is one of the reasons why the "comfort" seat has more of a turned-up lip at the front
Jacquie Schlitter in the photo probably has hers around 27 degrees or less. She looks like she needs that headrest (which is actually a neck rest).
I'll be getting a Thor Comfort headrest, I think (again more of a neckrest - needs to fit below the helmet): http://www.thorseat.eu/en/type-of-recumbent-seats/neckrest-comfort/
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I'm using my Nazca Carbon Sport seat at around 38 degrees I think, but I had to reshape it with some camping mat to increase lumbar support and to raise my shoulders - both of these helped to stop me sliding off the front.
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Have you decided on the style of bars to get? Tweener bars aka aerosteers are much more "bike-like" than tiller. I've never been able to re-program my brain to be confident with tiller bars. YMMV.
Yes, Schlitter Double J Handlebars, which are very adjustable, as shown here:
(https://scontent-lht6-1.cdninstagram.com/v/t51.2885-15/e35/s1080x1080/83100754_146061253050857_4864620446305900385_n.jpg?_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.cdninstagram.com&_nc_cat=105&_nc_ohc=O5hrdr4J6GoAX9K3tIT&_nc_tp=15&oh=186968c3c4c6f52324ff7e0229bf328f&oe=5FC40512) (https://scontent-lht6-1.cdninstagram.com/v/t51.2885-15/e35/s1080x1080/83100754_146061253050857_4864620446305900385_n.jpg?_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.cdninstagram.com&_nc_cat=105&_nc_ohc=O5hrdr4J6GoAX9K3tIT&_nc_tp=15&oh=186968c3c4c6f52324ff7e0229bf328f&oe=5FC40512)
I will be using 11-speed XT M8000 rapid fire shifters and hydraulic brake levers for the controls and XT (long cage) rear derailleur, but Ultegra BR-R8070 Flat Mount disc calipers and R7000 105 (160mm) chainset and front derailleur. Gearing will be 11-42 and 50/34.
I will be getting a Thor seat, but there's a choice of two possible suitable styles, with different seat angles - not sure which to go for - any recommendations?
1) Thor Seat Easy Carbon <http://www.thorseat.eu/en/store/Seat-Easy-Carbon-p139004203 (http://www.thorseat.eu/en/store/Seat-Easy-Carbon-p139004203)> - Recommended degree: Sitting 35°- 60°
2) Thor Seat Sport Carbon <http://www.thorseat.eu/en/store/Seat-Sport-Carbon-p138791037 (http://www.thorseat.eu/en/store/Seat-Sport-Carbon-p138791037)> - Recommended degree: Sitting 15°- 35°
Whilst I don't want a very upright position, as want to be reasonably aero (for riding with my roadie friends) and also not to put too much "stack" weight onto my lower back, I'm not going to be actually racing either (something like the Cruzbike Vendetta V20 (https://cruzbike.com/products/v20) looks way too reclined for me!) and do want a good view of traffic etc., so am thinking probably would would somewhere in the middle, but I'm new to all this! Think "endurance", rather than "race". Perhaps 35-40°??
Even 60 degrees is very aero compared to a road bike. It really depends on where you think your roadie friends will drop you. Will it be on the flats or more likely the uphills? It also depends on relative fitness. It does take time for the legs to adapt to the new position. So don’t worry if you are slower than your road bike at first. You’ll have to experiment with the seat angle to find the right balance between aero and climbing ability for you. It’s my belief that the more upright the seat the better the climbing ability. An Italian fella has experimented with this and he reckons 40-50 degrees is kind of optimal for climbing. But do experiment to see what works for you. There no right or wrong answer, just preferences.
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I've never found seat angle to make an appreciable difference to my climbing performance (not that I've investigated it scientifically), but a more upright position does make it easier to get a foot down and gives you more confidence balancing at low speed, which are clearly advantageous when climbing.
A more reclined position is however an easy aero win, up to the point where the neck angle starts to affect your endurance. While they're sometimes necessary I'm not a fan of head/neck rests - they're mostly a way of transmitting bumps from crappy road surfaces directly to your head. And if you're reclined enough to need one, you won't have a very good view of the road in front of your wheel...
As ever, you have to suck it and see.
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I'll be getting a Thor Comfort headrest, I think (again more of a neckrest - needs to fit below the helmet): http://www.thorseat.eu/en/type-of-recumbent-seats/neckrest-comfort/
No experience of that headrest,but I do have a fixed headrest on the SPM and one that can be moved about on the Catrike. I find that the angle I (want to) hold my head at doesn't lend itself to a headrest that won't rotate forward/back. On the SPM I have a sock rolled up which moves the headrest forward and adds cushioning.
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I've set up my exercise bike in a recumbent mode at home.
I can alter my hip angle by ~90 degrees on it.
I don't feel any difference within the range of normal seat angles, but I can feel a difference at the extremes.
Being in a very laid back position puts much more strain on my quads vs being in the more normal almost crank forward recumbent exercise bike position.
But I've no way of measuring sustained power output on it so I don't know if it alters that.
But my guess is that you'll fatigue quicker if your more laid back, hence hill climbing will suffer.
Luck ........... ;D
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Also not sure whether to go for a 2cm or 3cm Ventisit pad - is thicker always better (other than being a bit heavier), or are there any potential drawbacks. I don't have much of my own "padding" on my back, as am quite slim (and about 65Kg).
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I bought a 3cm one for my tourer. When I wanted another for the Red Baron, I bought another 3cm and rotated them round, as they do squish down a bit with use (particularly where you put your leg down, as it skews the structure sideways).
I've lost a lot of weight this year (and most of what remains is on my thighs and arse), to the point where my back is now considerably knobblier. I had a bad experience with the ICE mesh seat (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=56363.msg2533518#msg2533518) back in August, which hasn't previously been a problem (possibly because I wasn't trying to race on it), but have had no issues with my usual hardshell seat and Ventisit.
I don't think there's an obvious downside to thicker, other than weight and being slightly trickier to pluck bits of foliage out of. It probably ventilates slightly better, as well as giving you a bit more padding.
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I started with a thin pad on my seat and changed to a thick one when I wore it out.
My arm harness rubs against the pad and wears it away, hence I killed the first pad.
The major difference I noticed was it filled the bowl in the bottom of the seat more.
So if you're going to slide forward then the thinner pad will give you a better bowl shape to the seat to hold you in place.
But it also means there less of a edge to the seat and it's more comfortable for me there.
But my seat is very reclined so that edge is probably more prominent than most.
Didn't really feel much difference in actual cushioning between pads.
If you want to lock yourself in position better then go thin, otherwise I'd go thick if you want a little more comfort.
Luck .......... ;D
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Trike seats have more need for a bowl shape than bike ones, on account of the sideways forces.
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I found the M5 seat angle at near 25degrees to be very aero, but a bugger to see over the front wheel. The 40 deg angle of the S40 is good for touring and visibility, but less so for absolute speed
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I found the M5 seat angle at near 25degrees to be very aero, but a bugger to see over the front wheel. The 40 deg angle of the S40 is good for touring and visibility, but less so for absolute speed
Sounds like I'm probably going to need something between about 30-40 degrees, which is close to the extreme (but at different ends) for either seat...
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Is it worth getting the cheaper (fibreglass) sport model and then upgrading to Carbon once you graduate to a lower seat angle?
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I've spoken to a few other people (some of whom own the Schlitter Freestyle) and they reckon for my use case to go for the "Easy" rather than "Sport" model, it's still quite a "sporty" seat. Also possibly to go for the 3cm rather than 2cm Ventisit pad, though I might still go for the latter. I'll also get the Thor neckrest.
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Is Laidback still doing the import and getting all these other things for you?
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Is Laidback still doing the import and getting all these other things for you?
They're doing the frame import, I'm sourcing the seat, wheels (Scribe) and most of the components, because I like doing that
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Any news on when they expect to build your frame?
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Any news on when they expect to build your frame?
Probably early December, the frameset has shipped from Taiwan, and I have all the components now (including an R7000 105 compact chainset in 160mm, which took some tracking down), apart from the Scribe carbon wheels, which probably won't ship until December.
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... I suffer from chronic lower back pain, I've not been completely pain free for about 4 years now, and in the last 6 months it's got much worse and seems to get aggravated by anything but really (non-recumbent) short bike rides....
IME if walking doesn't aggravate your back but cycling does, it might well be that your legs are not quite the same length as one another. This very commonly causes problems of this sort, and/or makes any given problem worse. Obviously it won't be the whole story if there are diagnosed problems of various kinds but it might be key to making cycling comfortable again.
cheers
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... I suffer from chronic lower back pain, I've not been completely pain free for about 4 years now, and in the last 6 months it's got much worse and seems to get aggravated by anything but really (non-recumbent) short bike rides....
IME if walking doesn't aggravate your back but cycling does, it might well be that your legs are not quite the same length as one another. This very commonly causes problems of this sort, and/or makes any given problem worse. Obviously it won't be the whole story if there are diagnosed problems of various kinds but it might be key to making cycling comfortable again.
Thanks, though no physio that I've seen has said that my legs are not the same length (they have checked, though!), so I don't think that's the problem.
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I only started to have problems with my mismatched leg length[1] when I started riding recumbents. I naturally stand on one leg or the other, so only get lower back pain when forced to use both (eg. when doing the washing up, and there's a cupboard blocking your knee from bending). On an upright I suppose there's enough scope to sit on the saddle slightly wonky and it all just works. But on a recumbent, the seat keeps your back and pelvis straight, so you're either overextending one leg or underextending the other. Plus you can ride for a lot longer without numb fingers or pulverised genitals, so the less severe problems you didn't know you had come into play.
I solved underextended knee issues by a combination of physioterrorism to strengthen the weak stabilising muscles of the lower leg (I do most of my standing on the other one) and ankling more with the other foot. Which worked well until the achilles started to suffer. Last year I sucked it up and forked out for some shortened cranks[2], which stopped the achilles problems dead. I had to make a conscious effort to train myself to pedal hard enough on the shorter crank, but it all seems to work. I've done more miles in 2020 than any previous year, and the only injury has been from racing on an inappropriate seat.
[1] About 10-15mm, from a break of my right femur as a child.
[2] I wanted to use SPD sandals for touring, which precludes shimming the cleat or orthotics.
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HK fitted her carbon fibre orthotics into her SPD sandals for brevets, when she had them. She is still looking for a stiff-soled sandal replacement.
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If I had orthotics for normal use, I'd probably have given that more investigation. But it's sub-clinical other than for washing-up and recumbent cycling and who wants to wait 3.5 million years to see the feet-fettlers every time they buy some new shoes if they don't have to? Make the bike fit the rider, I say...
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Usually it's easier to get your feet down with a narrower "Sport" seat than with a wider "Comfort" seat, so I'd suggest that. You should be ok to start off learning with it set to 40 degrees anyway, but you'd probably need to get it down to 35 degrees or less to stop sliding off the front. Jacquie Schlitter in the photo probably has hers around 27 degrees or less. She looks like she needs that headrest (which is actually a neck rest).
I've ordered a Nazca Comfort Seat. I've been tending to slide off the Sport seat and the thin pad I'm using reduces comfort. I think a thicker pad will need a more cupped seat base. The Comfort seat is only available in glass fibre. Thought I'd order one ahead of the end of the Brexit transition period.
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Usually it's easier to get your feet down with a narrower "Sport" seat than with a wider "Comfort" seat, so I'd suggest that. You should be ok to start off learning with it set to 40 degrees anyway, but you'd probably need to get it down to 35 degrees or less to stop sliding off the front. Jacquie Schlitter in the photo probably has hers around 27 degrees or less. She looks like she needs that headrest (which is actually a neck rest).
I've ordered a Nazca Comfort Seat. I've been tending to slide off the Sport seat and the thin pad I'm using reduces comfort. I think a thicker pad will need a more cupped seat base. The Comfort seat is only available in glass fibre. Thought I'd order one ahead of the end of the Brexit transition period.
I went for the Thor "Comfort" seat in the end, as can't see myself needing to go down to much less than 40 degrees (for now anyway) and sounds like going too low makes hills more difficult. I went for the 2 cm Ventisit pad in the end, will see how I get on with that.
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How's the Freestyle build coming along? My Nazca Comfort seat has disappeared into a black hole. It tracked to the dutch sorting hub and then - nothing. Nazca are investigating.
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The frame, Thor seat and all components have arrived, am still waiting for the Scribe 5042 carbon wheels to be delivered
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The frame, Thor seat and all components have arrived, am still waiting for the Scribe 5042 carbon wheels to be delivered
Where are the wheels coming from?
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The frame, Thor seat and all components have arrived, am still waiting for the Scribe 5042 carbon wheels to be delivered
Where are the wheels coming from?
Not sure, I think they actually have the rims now, but are waiting on the hubs - probably my fault for asking for candy apple green hubs (pictured), rather than boring gloss black ones. They've said they should have the hubs by early next week, though.
It's this wheelset: https://scribecycling.co.uk/collections/carbon-disc/products/aero-wide-4250-d-1-438g
But with these hubs:
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0063/1157/5670/products/greenhub_527a3cf1-3421-441a-bedf-c263300545d8_1802x.progressive.jpg) (https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0063/1157/5670/products/greenhub_527a3cf1-3421-441a-bedf-c263300545d8_1802x.progressive.jpg)
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The frame, Thor seat and all components have arrived, am still waiting for the Scribe 5042 carbon wheels to be delivered
Where are the wheels coming from?
Not sure, I think they actually have the rims now, but are waiting on the hubs - probably my fault for asking for candy apple green hubs (pictured), rather than boring gloss black ones. They've said they should have the hubs by early next week, though.
It's this wheelset: https://scribecycling.co.uk/collections/carbon-disc/products/aero-wide-4250-d-1-438g
But with these hubs:
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0063/1157/5670/products/greenhub_527a3cf1-3421-441a-bedf-c263300545d8_1802x.progressive.jpg) (https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0063/1157/5670/products/greenhub_527a3cf1-3421-441a-bedf-c263300545d8_1802x.progressive.jpg)
Do those glow in the dark?
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Wide internal and external. You going for 28mm tyres to get those extra watt savings from the near aero foil shape?
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Wide internal and external. You going for 28mm tyres to get those extra watt savings from the near aero foil shape?
Yes, Veloflex Evo Corsa 28mm (https://www.veloflex.it/en/clincher-tire-corsa-evo-gum-sidewall), or at least I'm going to give those a go. Was very happy with the (25mm) Veloflex Masters on my Mercian, fast and with good grip, but give a really comfy ride.
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Do those glow in the dark?
Sadly not :)
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Any news? Just hoping to see some photos ;D
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Any news? Just hoping to see some photos ;D
(https://i.imgur.com/PvllSUm.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/PvllSUm.jpg)
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Nice! :thumbsup:
Must be the perspective of the photo, looks immensely reclined (and like your rear wheel is much smaller than the front one).
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Nice! :thumbsup:
Must be the perspective of the photo, looks immensely reclined (and like your rear wheel is much smaller than the front one).
Seat angle is about 35 degrees, I think. Both wheels are 700c with 28mm tyres 😀
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Nice. I hear there's a frame recall though, requiring a swap. Have you been contacted?
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Nice. I hear there's a frame recall though, requiring a swap. Have you been contacted?
Yes, I've been contacted, unfortunately they can't do the same matt black/polished alloy finish of my current frame, so have requested orange/white instead. I don't know how long it'll take for me to get the new frame, though, so I'm continuing to ride my current frame, but before each ride checking the frame for cracks around the area which a few people (who were considerably heavier than me) have reported failures.
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That Performer is a bargain.
Dunno about that, looking at the bike it looks a rip off of an old Low Baron. Which suffered from frame cracks around the headset/boom area before the design was changed to weld in a gusset. At least you get a nice tail box.
I had the SAKI version of that Performer. Bought it as a frame kit and added my own gears, wheels, chain etc. It's very light but was more than strong enough for my weight mainly on country lanes - so I gave it a fairly stern test over about 4 years. It was a bargain and I covered several thousand miles on it. I'm at the top end of its weight capacity and had absolutely no issues with it at all. Tom OTP now has it as I had age issues and had to move it on. I still have a 2004 Performer 26/20 recumbent and its similarly well engineered and has given me almost no problems at all. I had a broken hub when changing a cassette, but that's all.
IMHO, they are very good bikes, well engineered, and Christine at the factory will sell you whatever you need, and have it delivered very quickly. These guys know what customer service is. Recumbents are a very small part of their business, they make vast numbers of DF bikes for the major names under subcontract AIUI.
I just spotted this. I now have that Saki. It's getting a lot of use. A Thor Seat, New Mavics, headset etc and it's as good as new. Very happy with it.
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I just spotted this. I now have that Saki. It's getting a lot of use. A Thor Seat, New Mavics, headset etc and it's as good as new. Very happy with it.
Hi, have you bought my Saki from Tom?
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I just spotted this. I now have that Saki. It's getting a lot of use. A Thor Seat, New Mavics, headset etc and it's as good as new. Very happy with it.
Hi, have you bought my Saki from Tom?
Yes. That was his name so I'm assuming this was yours originally. I don't think there are many in the UK, if any.
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Hi, Presumably Tom could not get on with it. I did a few thousand miles on it but had a medical issue that meant it became too twitchy for me so had to let it go. Getting older really sucks. I bought it as a frame set and added my own drivetrain, wheels etc. Christine at Performer is very helpful and if you need Performer parts she'll get them to you very quickly.
I loved that bike and was very sorry to let it go. LaidBack Bikes in Edinburgh bring these 'bents in too, so I'd suspect there are a few more in the UK, but not many. I think they are a really well-engineered frame, and the welding is top notch. Lovely bike. I hope you get many, many miles out of it and really enjoy it.
Andy
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Hi, Presumably Tom could not get on with it. I did a few thousand miles on it but had a medical issue that meant it became too twitchy for me so had to let it go. Getting older really sucks. I bought it as a frame set and added my own drivetrain, wheels etc. Christine at Performer is very helpful and if you need Performer parts she'll get them to you very quickly.
I loved that bike and was very sorry to let it go. LaidBack Bikes in Edinburgh bring these 'bents in too, so I'd suspect there are a few more in the UK, but not many. I think they are a really well-engineered frame, and the welding is top notch. Lovely bike. I hope you get many, many miles out of it and really enjoy it.
Andy
Thanks Andy. I certainly will.