Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => Topic started by: quixoticgeek on 25 February, 2021, 12:27:30 am
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I killed another bottom bracket...
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EvB8_UAUcAAAfQl?format=jpg&name=large)
I'm guessing by the colour the weather seal broke down, water got in, and the thing rusted up. Age of this is... um... well I think I put it in before the TCR in July 2019. So it's probably done something like 9000km. It's an SH-BB52. They are €17 each, and I've just been fitting one after another for the last 23000km. I think I just put in my 4th or 5th. They are relatively cheap, but they are a lot of faff to fit. If I spend a bit more for a Bottom bracket, will I get better value from it? The MT800 (which would match the spec level of the rest of my drive train), is €30 from the same shop. Will I get twice the life out of it for the same use cases? Or is it the point of diminishing returns?
J
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Over 34,000km on my Hope BB and still going. Which has surprised me.
All I've done is removed and refitted annually with a clean and re grease the outer face and fit the plastic cover back to the BB cup.
Before that I was getting circa 7000km from Ultegra BBs on my other bikes but I thought I would just keep replacing as they seemed cheeper. My CdF has been through 3 in 21,000km so about £70 worth of BBs
Hope BB seem to have gone up since I bought one, I think I paid circa £75 for it but looks like they are now about £89.
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I'm not sure about the spec numbers you've given for the BBs but like Jiber when I started using Ultegra level a few years ago, the lifespan increased significantly compared to the Tiagra level ones I'd used previously. Just to comment on Jiber's point about Hope, only heard good things about their BBs but never invested in one myself.
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That's a Deore level BB I think. Might be worth trying an XT. Sounds like a sealing issue. You could also flip out the outer seal and wipe a bit of Morgan Blue Aqua paste on. It might help.
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Has that bike been subject to pressure washer abuse? Are the O-rings on the back of both cranks intact?
What part of replacing it is a faff? I regularly swap a power meter between bikes before rides and replacing the BB is only a couple of extra steps.
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Has that bike been subject to pressure washer abuse? Are the O-rings on the back of both cranks intact?
What part of replacing it is a faff? I regularly swap a power meter between bikes before rides and replacing the BB is only a couple of extra steps.
That's because you probably have a work stand for it, and are not propping the bike between your desk chair and a box of tools... while trying not to drop the chain on the carpet...
I haven't pressure washed it, but I have hosed it down with a hose a couple of times.
J
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Has that bike been subject to pressure washer abuse?
...
I suspect riding on wet roads without mudguards has much the same effect :P
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Has that bike been subject to pressure washer abuse? Are the O-rings on the back of both cranks intact?
What part of replacing it is a faff? I regularly swap a power meter between bikes before rides and replacing the BB is only a couple of extra steps.
That's because you probably have a work stand for it, and are not propping the bike between your desk chair and a box of tools... while trying not to drop the chain on the carpet...
I haven't pressure washed it, but I have hosed it down with a hose a couple of times.
J
Its one job where you don't want a workstand. You want the bike on the floor so you can get a bit of purchase on the bb spanner
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Has that bike been subject to pressure washer abuse? Are the O-rings on the back of both cranks intact?
What part of replacing it is a faff? I regularly swap a power meter between bikes before rides and replacing the BB is only a couple of extra steps.
That's because you probably have a work stand for it, and are not propping the bike between your desk chair and a box of tools... while trying not to drop the chain on the carpet...
I haven't pressure washed it, but I have hosed it down with a hose a couple of times.
J
Its one job where you don't want a workstand. You want the bike on the floor so you can get a bit of purchase on the bb spanner
This ^ 100%
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Anyway, stiff bottom-bracket?
This sounds like a job for.....
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That's because you probably have a work stand for it, and are not propping the bike between your desk chair and a box of tools... while trying not to drop the chain on the carpet...
No, normally done in the hallway. And since it usually involves fiddling with two bikes and there isn't room to have two out at once, one is normally done without removing it from the wall or the bike pile.
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Anyway, stiff bottom-bracket?
This sounds like a job for.....
Didn't we have a Bottom Bracket destroyer hereabouts? Will have to check archives...
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Sh-BB52 - €16
M800BSA - €30
Hope - €118
If the Hope lasts >8 times longer than the BB52, or >4 times the M800, it's cost effective. Which would be at least 40000km. Which doesn't feel unreasonable... I'm tempted. If not from a financial POV, but from a ecological one. Less waste. I've yet to work out how to recycle the BB's I've used, and have them all sat in the boxes the next one came out of.
J
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As domestic recycling probably won't collect them (too solid!) I wonder if it would be possible to "donate" them to a friendly LBS to put out with their commercial recycling? You'd have to be on really good terms with them but...
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Sh-BB52 - €16
M800BSA - €30
Hope - €118
If the Hope lasts >8 times longer than the BB52, or >4 times the M800, it's cost effective. Which would be at least 40000km. Which doesn't feel unreasonable... I'm tempted. If not from a financial POV, but from a ecological one. Less waste. I've yet to work out how to recycle the BB's I've used, and have them all sat in the boxes the next one came out of.
J
The Hope will not last 40000Km.
No HT-II BB will do that.
But the hope has replaceable cartridges, which saves the minor cost of the aluminium shell, I suppose.
HT-II BBs are consumables.
That's just the nature of the beast.
Very long service life is not really part of their design paradigm.
Yes, various improvements can be made to keep the worst of the crud out; hence the different price-points, but it's tinkering around the edges of a design that is inherently exposed.
If you want to run external BBs, then you need to accept that they are consumables, and replace them from time to time.
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^ Yes
Although all BBs are consumables. Its just that ST ones have much better sealing, and aren't damaged by imperfect facing of BB shell. ST BBs have their own issues though...its much easier to bugger up the crank/axle interface. Sealing on Pressfit BBs is even worse...non-existent in some cases.
I'm not convinced that Hope BBs offer better VFM. They just allow replacement of actual bearings...which is more of a faff than replacing a whole BB.
Feanor is absolutely right You have to view them in much the same way as you view chains, tyres, cassettes, etc.
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^ Yes
I'm not convinced that Hope BBs offer better VFM. They just allow replacement of actual bearings...which is more of a faff than replacing a whole BB.
As someone who has Hope BBs on several bikes, I'd agree.
It just allows you to change the cartridge but retain the aluminium shell.
Well Big Furry Deal.
I'd not bother doing that again.
Simply replacing the whole thing is quick and simple, and does not require the bearing press tools.
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And that is why I no longer own a Hope BB. ;D
I'd put their £40 jockey wheels in the same pigeonhole. Really nice to look at, but zero added value.
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I'd recommend the Hope BB. I opted up to buy one a few years ago and would not fit anything else now. I'm sure they last longer, based on needing to give them zero attention since fitting, which is not my experience of the Shimano equivalents. Do they beat others when comparing miles per pound? Yes, but I've no idea by how much. What I'll also add is that they're smoother than any other external BB I've ever used. Not since having an XTR cartridge BB in my MTB do I have anything that spins so sweetly.
And they look great if the colours are your thing.
Finally, I can't identify any other manufacturer you can phone ad hoc and speak to someone who knows the product and is able to help you there and then.
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Sh-BB52 - €16
M800BSA - €30
Hope - €118
Somewhere between those in the price table is Nukeproof, no experience, though I'm happy with some of their other products, two year warranty, might be worth considering.
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As posted on the thread cleaning, um, thread. Chris King.
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As posted on the thread cleaning, um, thread. Chris King.
~€225 for the Chris King version.
Will it last twice as long as a hope one?
On the subject of hope BB's, people mention the bearings being replaceable, but I don't see them offered on the website as purchasable, nor any instructions to install them.
J
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Probably - Hope bearings don't have the greatest reputation for longevity.
Hope don't sell direct. You buy through their dealer network (I just bought a pair as I have a Hope PF41 in my road bike). Instructions will be there - if you can't find them email them, they'll send you a link/instructions withing a couple of days. You may need the appropriate tool to press the new ones in, it's just a matter of drifting the old ones out.
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As posted on the thread cleaning, um, thread. Chris King.
~€225 for the Chris King version.
Will it last twice as long as a hope one?
On the subject of hope BB's, people mention the bearings being replaceable, but I don't see them offered on the website as purchasable, nor any instructions to install them.
J
It's bling.
I don't know about the BBs but I wouldnt touch Chris King hubs with a bargepole. Proprietory bearings. To replace bearings on front hub will cost £100...vs maybe £25 for standard high quality SKF. Chris King will tell you that their bearings are serviceable..but all that means is that you can flip out the seals and inject fresh grease. As you can do with most sealed bearings. It doesn't mean that they don't wear though! You'll still need compressed air and it will be messier and take longer than just banging in a new BB.
If you like bling (and it will be nicely engineered) then go for it. But if you want bang for buck and time-efficiency, then probably not.
EDIT:Richard (Rafletcher) will be able to confirm this, but would I be correct in assuming that Chris King needs a proprietory BB tool as well???? I note that they cost £45...vs less than £20 for a HT spanner.
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Probably - Hope bearings don't have the greatest reputation for longevity.
Hope don't sell direct. You buy through their dealer network (I just bought a pair as I have a Hope PF41 in my road bike). Instructions will be there - if you can't find them email them, they'll send you a link/instructions withing a couple of days. You may need the appropriate tool to press the new ones in, it's just a matter of drifting the old ones out.
I have emailed them. Now I wait
J
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Apologies for the sort of hijack, but are Shimano hollow tech bb’s interchangeable across all cranksets?. Reading this thread, I’ve decided to upgrade from the current RS500 (Tiagra) component, will the Dura ace BBR9100 fit my Sora crank set?
Thanks in advance
A
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Apologies for the sort of hijack, but are Shimano hollow tech bb’s interchangeable across all cranksets?. Reading this thread, I’ve decided to upgrade from the current RS500 (Tiagra) component, will the Dura ace BBR9100 fit my Sora crank set?
Thanks in advance
A
If it works with an RS500 then it will work wil a BBR9100. The only difference is you will need an insert for your tool as the ext. diameter of the cup housing is different. They used to include the tool with the DA bb. Dont knowif they still do, but they arent expensive
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The top end of the quality market is a Belgian called C-Bear. He’s also a very helpful chap, and has a useful website with charts of what fits what.
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Except they are £100. Are they going to last longer than 7 Shimano BBs? I think not.
I don't doubt they are good quality, but beyond the satisfaction of installing a well-engineered component, what is the added value?
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On the subject of hope BB's, people mention the bearings being replaceable, but I don't see them offered on the website as purchasable, nor any instructions to install them.
J
I doubt they're Hope specific, or even BB specific, once you have the dimensions, or one in your hand, a decent bearing supplier can probably get replacements, most likely offer a better quality for the same price or the same quality cheaper. This is a guess based on that being the case with Hope headsets.
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As posted on the thread cleaning, um, thread. Chris King.
~€225 for the Chris King version.
Will it last twice as long as a hope one?
On the subject of hope BB's, people mention the bearings being replaceable, but I don't see them offered on the website as purchasable, nor any instructions to install them.
J
https://www.hopetech.com/_repository/1/documents/24mmThreadedBB-EN_FR_DE.pdf
Bearings are circa £20 a side and require a suitable tool to push remove/refit.
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Helpfully, Wiggle are currently selling Hope BB bearings half-price, ie £9.49.
Unhelpfully, they only have 1 in stock...
I've just checked: I replaced my BB with a Hope set in July 2019. They have started to creak again. I doubt that I have done 1000 miles in that time, and I'm certain it's under 1500.
I took the seals off yesterday and regreased them, and the creak went away for a bit. Now it's back again. Having splurged £85 on them less than 2 years ago, I'm reluctant to buy more.
Bollocks.
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An email exchange with Hope:
Hello!
I bought and fitted a Hope bottom bracket set from Chain Reaction cycles in July 2019 and in the past couple of weeks the bearings have started creaking again. I have definitely cycled less than 1500 miles since fitting them. I’ve seldom gone out in the rain and pretty well all my riding is at a “pottering” speed and has been on-road.
My bike is a Thorn with a Rohloff hub so the bearings are screwed into one of the Thorn eccentric bottom bracket units made of anodised aluminium: there’s no question of “shimming” off the BB in order to make sure that the two faces are parallel.
I wondered what the expected life of one of your BBs is, and if there is a warranty period. Such a short life seems to me to be unacceptable for such an expensive outlay. I have attached a screenshot of my order from the Chain Reaction website.
I look forward to your reply.
Yours sincerely,
Hi Peter
Sorry to hear of the bb issue. Our bottom bracket cups have a two year warranty, consumables, such as bearings, have a one year warranty. If you would like to send the bb cups in we can check them, I’ll attach a returns form.
Kind regards
Pretty disappointed in that tbh. If I send Hope the cups, how am I supposed to ride about? I expect more than 1500 miles (I've probably done nearer 1000) from a set of BB bearings. That's close to the worst £85 I've ever spent, I think.
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Yeah, they last about the same length of time as the £15 Shimano bottom brackets, you can replace the bearings by pressing them out of the cups, but they're a slightly odd size and cost about £20. ::-)
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I have expressed my views on the Chain Reaction website, where I bought the Hope BB. I have to wait 48 hours to see if they publish, but suffice it to say I was scathing.
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An email exchange with Hope:
Hello!
I bought and fitted a Hope bottom bracket set from Chain Reaction cycles in July 2019 and in the past couple of weeks the bearings have started creaking again. I have definitely cycled less than 1500 miles since fitting them. I’ve seldom gone out in the rain and pretty well all my riding is at a “pottering” speed and has been on-road.
My bike is a Thorn with a Rohloff hub so the bearings are screwed into one of the Thorn eccentric bottom bracket units made of anodised aluminium: there’s no question of “shimming” off the BB in order to make sure that the two faces are parallel.
I wondered what the expected life of one of your BBs is, and if there is a warranty period. Such a short life seems to me to be unacceptable for such an expensive outlay. I have attached a screenshot of my order from the Chain Reaction website.
I look forward to your reply.
Yours sincerely,
Hi Peter
Sorry to hear of the bb issue. Our bottom bracket cups have a two year warranty, consumables, such as bearings, have a one year warranty. If you would like to send the bb cups in we can check them, I’ll attach a returns form.
Kind regards
Pretty disappointed in that tbh. If I send Hope the cups, how am I supposed to ride about? I expect more than 1500 miles (I've probably done nearer 1000) from a set of BB bearings. That's close to the worst £85 I've ever spent, I think.
I don’t think it is unreasonable. For all they know you have cycled 50,000 miles in the last 2 years or worse still the BB is fine and you just want another one for a different bike. I would buy an ultegra for £24, send the hope one back and see what they say. If hope come back with a replacement I will buy the ultegra one off you for £20.
As an aside I find the ultegra ones last forever. I am from “wayfarer” school of bike cleaning and wonder if there is a negative correlation between cleanliness and expected life.
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Another +1 for Ultegra BB.
The Van Nic has had Ultegra since new. I think I must've clocked in excess on 25,000 miles on the original BB, before it failed.
It is currently on its third BB.
Ultegra, again.
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An email exchange with Hope:
Hello!
I bought and fitted a Hope bottom bracket set from Chain Reaction cycles in July 2019 and in the past couple of weeks the bearings have started creaking again. I have definitely cycled less than 1500 miles since fitting them. I’ve seldom gone out in the rain and pretty well all my riding is at a “pottering” speed and has been on-road.
My bike is a Thorn with a Rohloff hub so the bearings are screwed into one of the Thorn eccentric bottom bracket units made of anodised aluminium: there’s no question of “shimming” off the BB in order to make sure that the two faces are parallel.
I wondered what the expected life of one of your BBs is, and if there is a warranty period. Such a short life seems to me to be unacceptable for such an expensive outlay. I have attached a screenshot of my order from the Chain Reaction website.
I look forward to your reply.
Yours sincerely,
Hi Peter
Sorry to hear of the bb issue. Our bottom bracket cups have a two year warranty, consumables, such as bearings, have a one year warranty. If you would like to send the bb cups in we can check them, I’ll attach a returns form.
Kind regards
Pretty disappointed in that tbh. If I send Hope the cups, how am I supposed to ride about? I expect more than 1500 miles (I've probably done nearer 1000) from a set of BB bearings. That's close to the worst £85 I've ever spent, I think.
<shrug>
Have you determined what the actual failure is?
There are many things that can cause a creak.
It might not be a failure in the BB itself.
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It's exactly the same creak as has occurred in all of these exposed BBs. I have no doubt that's what it is.
I ordered one of these.
https://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-saint-hollowtech-ii-bottom-bracket-cups?lang=en&curr=GBP&dest=1&sku=5360634333&utm_source=google&utm_term=&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=base&gclid=Cj0KCQjw6-SDBhCMARIsAGbI7UhH3_pSKMgRESTyyo6iqofDTdyCf2fTc0T_F96NoW3m__mwrInwnZMaAnBKEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
1/3 of the price of the Hope.
I've contemplated taking out the Hollowtech II system and replacing with square-taper, but that would involve replacing the entire crankset, which ICBA to do. It's not as though I'm notching up 6000 to 7000 miles a year, as I used to do. I will be 67 in a couple of months and a point may well come in the not too distant future when I decide to go for electric assist. Everything is working at the moment, but despite losing about 3 stones in weight, I'm not getting any quicker!
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Another +1 for Ultegra BB.
The Van Nic has had Ultegra since new. I think I must've clocked in excess on 25,000 miles on the original BB, before it failed.
It is currently on its third BB.
Ultegra, again.
Is the Ultegra the one that has a plastic adaptor between it and the BB tool?
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The new models have a smaller diameter flange so you get a plastic insert for the tool
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According to one of the reviews on Wiggle, that particular BB doesn't require the plastic adapter and will work with a Shimano BBT9 tool.
My Ultegra BB is old enough not to need the adapter.
As HF mentions, the contemporary Ultegra BBs do require an adapter.
From a quick review of vendors of this product, it would appear that if an adapter is required, it'll get a mention in the copy of the ad.
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For clarity, current Ultegra, 105, and DA models need the adaptor (TLFC37 or TLFC25) the Saint in WB's link doesn't.
It's easy the spot which is which. The BBs requiring the adaptor have a bevelled edge. The others don't.
Old
(https://www.wigglestatic.com/product-media/5360093476/Shimano-Saint-Bottom-Bracket-Cups.jpg?w=430&h=430&a=7)
New
(https://www.merlincycles.com/assets/images/productImage_470_470_ffffff_image-jpeg/11474_shimano_ultegra_6800_bottom_bracket.jpg)
The BBs used to come with adaptor if proper retail product, but more often than not they no longer do. They are cheap to buy though. (£4)
(https://www.wigglestatic.com/product-media/137442/Shimano-BB-Adaptor-Installation-Tool-TL-FC24-Workshop-Tools-n-a-NotSet-TL-FC24.jpg?w=430&h=430&a=7)
I'm not normally this helpful this early in the morning
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According to one of the reviews on Wiggle, that particular BB doesn't require the plastic adapter and will work with a Shimano BBT9 tool.
The new ultegra am bbr60 is definitely smaller than the old one and you need the adapter for your tool. If you get it retail packaged it comes with the adapter otherwise it is £3.50. I know this because I just fitted one this week that was oem packaged. Perhaps the tool you mentioned is specifically for the new size but I doubt it
Edit: I would add that the adapter is in my opinion a bit crap because although it fits the bottom bracket nicely it won’t quite fit my bottom bracket spanner and fits my bottom bracket socket for my socket set so tightly I don’t think it will come out again with out breaking.
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(https://www.wigglestatic.com/product-media/137442/Shimano-BB-Adaptor-Installation-Tool-TL-FC24-Workshop-Tools-n-a-NotSet-TL-FC24.jpg?w=430&h=430&a=7)
I'm not normally this helpful this early in the morning
That image looks more like an FC24 adapter rather than the required FC25.
https://youtu.be/ccnfHKZebRk
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Ah..quite right! My bad. The photo is in fact the FC24, and not the FC25. You can tell because the splines on the FC24 are 4mm deep rather than 5mm on the FC25. Well spotted.
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Ah..quite right! My bad. The photo is in fact the FC24, and not the FC25. You can tell because the splines on the FC24 are 4mm deep rather than 5mm on the FC25. Well spotted.
Did you watch the instructional video about Donnelly nut spacing ?
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The number of different BB tools needed by bike shops nowadays is absurd.
https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/bottom-bracket-tool-selection-threaded-and-thread-together
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Ah..quite right! My bad. The photo is in fact the FC24, and not the FC25. You can tell because the splines on the FC24 are 4mm deep rather than 5mm on the FC25. Well spotted.
Did you watch the instructional video about Donnelly nut spacing ?
Yes. Obsolete, because the RimRider has been superseded by the E-Stim CBT Master.
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Ah..quite right! My bad. The photo is in fact the FC24, and not the FC25. You can tell because the splines on the FC24 are 4mm deep rather than 5mm on the FC25. Well spotted.
You can also tell because it has FC24 etched in the rim.
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Ah..quite right! My bad. The photo is in fact the FC24, and not the FC25. You can tell because the splines on the FC24 are 4mm deep rather than 5mm on the FC25. Well spotted.
You can also tell because it has FC24 etched in the rim.
It's not etched. It is raised or embossed, as the injection moulding tool which formed it will have had a corresponding indentation at that point.
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TL-FC24 is 39mm diameter and fits SM-BB9000, BB93
TL-FC25 is 41mm diameter and fits BBR60 and SM-MT800
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It's not etched. It is raised or embossed
Ok, I’ll take your word for it! Hard to tell in the pic.
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An interesting range of experiences. I’ve replaced BBs with Hope models for about eight years, including CX race bikes that get a lot of muddy abuse. I’ve not had to touch one of them. When it’s time to replace the bearings, it appeals to me that I’ll just be replacing the worn part, rather than disposing of the whole thing.
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An interesting range of experiences. I’ve replaced BBs with Hope models for about eight years, including CX race bikes that get a lot of muddy abuse. I’ve not had to touch one of them. When it’s time to replace the bearings, it appeals to me that I’ll just be replacing the worn part, rather than disposing of the whole thing.
That's pretty much my take on it too.
Well, that, and RED, obviously.
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The new bottom bracket arrived yesterday, but I have yet to fit it. The Hope one is still in place, with intermittent creaking. I put a load of grease around the bearing and I think it's possible that that grease is taking a while to have an effect, but it may be improving. I'll give it a few more days before deciding whether to change it.
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FWIW, every HTII BB I've fitted (about six or seven of them) I've put PTFE tape and Copaslip on the threads before fitting.
So far, this has rendered the squeaks and creaks silent.