Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => On The Road => Topic started by: David Martin on 28 April, 2008, 10:15:13 pm
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I got this from a colleague at the Uni at which I work.
I went to the Academic Council earlier and was amazed to find cycling was on the agenda. It seems they would like to implement Bike to work "when HERA has been put to bed".
<head of HR> made the observation that Bike to work has minimal environmental impact because most users are existing cyclists seeking to upgrade their equipment rather than genuine mode-switchers. Do you know of any research on this?
Anecdotes are a dime a dozen, but does anyone have any hard evidence on this? What proportion of people taking up the scheme are new cyclists (or by what proportion do cycle journeys to work increase?)
..d
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No hard evidence, here, I'm afraid. But:
a) Anecdotally the bike sheds at my employers filled up significantly when they ran the scheme recently - and that was in November, when new converts would (I assume) be difficult to come by. I suspect that the effect was more one of existing cyclists travelling more often, rather than full modal switching, but does that matter?
b) You could also point out to you HR bod that reinforcing existing positive behaviour has value in itself, and can lead indirectly to improvement among those who don't initially take advantage of the scheme.
;D
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If the HR bod is like ours, it's probably that they can't be arsed implementing it.
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If the HR bod is like ours, it's probably that they can't be arsed implementing it.
It is very easy to find excuses for doing nothing.
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If the HR bod is like ours, it's probably that they can't be arsed implementing it.
We have been pushing for some time.
..d
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We've been pushing here for ages. We do a bike loan scheme which everyone is able to use, but you get no benefits from this really apart from splitting the cost.
Our HR dept. claims that it's a hire-purchase scheme and that the government guidelines do not specify the final value of the bike at scheme's end, so for auditing purposes they cannot justify any resale value applied.
Thwey're also worried about maintenance, being left with bikes that users don't want to buy back at the schemes end and liability for incidents connected with equipment "supplied" by them (health and safety tell me that no-one has spoken to them about this).
I wrote to my MP and complained that my employer (a Government Funded institution) was not allowing me to take advantage of a tax perk (we have a nursery voucher scheme). He has written to me saying that he has written to the Minister in charge of our funding. I'll probably get raked over the coals by HR....
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Our HR dept. claims that it's a hire-purchase scheme and that the government guidelines do not specify the final value of the bike at scheme's end, so for auditing purposes they cannot justify any resale value applied.
I think the technical description for this statement is "arseholes" but I'm sure there'll be a bean counter along in a minute to cast a professional eye over my assessment.
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I got this from a colleague at the Uni at which I work.
I went to the Academic Council earlier and was amazed to find cycling was on the agenda. It seems they would like to implement Bike to work "when HERA has been put to bed".
<head of HR> made the observation that Bike to work has minimal environmental impact because most users are existing cyclists seeking to upgrade their equipment rather than genuine mode-switchers. Do you know of any research on this?
Anecdotes are a dime a dozen, but does anyone have any hard evidence on this? What proportion of people taking up the scheme are new cyclists (or by what proportion do cycle journeys to work increase?)
..d
There's a scheme in operation where I'm working at the moment. I will try to find out from TPTB if they have stats on this. I'm not supposed to say which company it is but it is a large pharmaceutical company in Brentford where I have worked previously and which actively encourages its employees to cycle to work.
One young woman recently bought a beautiful new Trek Madone under the scheme from the on-site bike shop. Within a week it had been run over by a bus but fortunately the lady herself escaped with minor bruises. I believe that a large claim is on its way to the bus company.
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Our HR dept. claims that it's a hire-purchase scheme and that the government guidelines do not specify the final value of the bike at scheme's end, so for auditing purposes they cannot justify any resale value applied.
If the final resale value is known in advance then it's a taxable perk as the "gain" is calculable. That's why it specifically isn't stated. However even the cyclescheme website hints at 5%.
Thwey're also worried about maintenance, being left with bikes that users don't want to buy back at the schemes end and liability for incidents connected with equipment "supplied" by them (health and safety tell me that no-one has spoken to them about this).
Maintenance is not their concern.
As for unwanted bikes, the cyclescheme bumpf says that the user has to pay the *nudge* *nudge* 5% at the end of the year whether they want the bike or not. If they don't want it then the cash is used to pass the bike on to charity.
Ah yes, here's the link. Point them here:-
http://www.cyclescheme.co.uk/employer,faqs.htm
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What happens at the end of the loan period?
It's your employer's choice whether they opt to sell you the bike at the end of the hire period. If you choose to become the owner of the goods, you may be offered the opportunity to pay the Fair Market Value for them from your net salary. Your employer needs to assess each bike separately as to its worth but in our experience the market shows values to be around 5% of the original value. If you choose not to buy the bike you will be charged the equivalent of the Fair Market Value to dispose of the goods, probably to a charity.
The fair market value cannot be stated before or during the scheme as this could be considered a benefit in kind as hire-purchase does not warrant any tax-relief.
"
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Replying to the OP
I know of 8 people including myself who got bikes in this years CTW scheme, 6 were existing cyclists invoking n+1 for themselves or family, one was getting a folder for his holiday cottage and 1 bought a bike for commuting on - he is the only new commuter out of the scheme.
This only applies to the people I know personally but looking at the bike parking areas most of them are the usual suspects
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No stats, but another anecdote - I know a couple of people who used our scheme to buy replacement bikes. One of those people was a regular commuter by bike anyway whose bike was knackered, and one had a bike but didn't use it for commuting but intends to do so now. She collects her new bike this weekend and is giving her old bike (which changes gear all by itself ::-) ) to another colleague who will commute by bike during the summer. I also know of a couple of other people who joined the scheme as completely new cyclists, no previous bikes. I've leant them my Cyclecraft and City Cycling and they're now commuting by bike.
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Of the (three) people I know directly that have used our scheme, all were exisiting cyclists (mainly roadies).
I bought a winter trainer/audax through the scheme but it is the bike I use for commuting to work every day.
We have the Halford's scheme which I did not find to be user friendly and a possible deterrent for new riders.
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I got this from a colleague at the Uni at which I work.
I went to the Academic Council earlier and was amazed to find cycling was on the agenda. It seems they would like to implement Bike to work "when HERA has been put to bed".
<head of HR> made the observation that Bike to work has minimal environmental impact because most users are existing cyclists seeking to upgrade their equipment rather than genuine mode-switchers. Do you know of any research on this?
Anecdotes are a dime a dozen, but does anyone have any hard evidence on this? What proportion of people taking up the scheme are new cyclists (or by what proportion do cycle journeys to work increase?)
..d
Well, imo, he does have a reasonable point.
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No stats, but another anecdote - I know a couple of people who used our scheme to buy replacement bikes. One of those people was a regular commuter by bike anyway whose bike was knackered, and one had a bike but didn't use it for commuting but intends to do so now. She collects her new bike this weekend and is giving her old bike (which changes gear all by itself ::-) ) to another colleague who will commute by bike during the summer. I also know of a couple of other people who joined the scheme as completely new cyclists, no previous bikes. I've leant them my Cyclecraft and City Cycling and they're now commuting by bike.
I believe you work for a public sector organisation in Scotland? WOuld it be possible to contact someone there for a more formal opinion?
..d
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Replying to the OP
I know of 8 people including myself who got bikes in this years CTW scheme, 6 were existing cyclists invoking n+1 for themselves or family, one was getting a folder for his holiday cottage and 1 bought a bike for commuting on - he is the only new commuter out of the scheme.
This only applies to the people I know personally but looking at the bike parking areas most of them are the usual suspects
This is very similar to my own experience although the '1' to purchase a bike to use for a daily commute was already an existing cyclist who wanted a more suitable commuting steed.
I guess we don't necessarily know those who don't already commute by bike. I'm surprised that there isn't any published research on the impact of Cycle to Work schemes although I admit to not delving too deeply for it.
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More anecdote I'm afraid, but when the company I work for implemented the scheme I know at least 3 new cycles appeared in the racks at our sites in Dundee and Edinburgh. I don't know the owners, so can't say for sure whether they were existing cyclists, but even if they were they weren't commuting cyclists before the scheme.
Of the 'regular cyclists' that I know (myself included) none availed themselves of the scheme because our company chose to retain to themselves the VAT, with the excuse that 'you will save about 30% anyway, so why shouldn't we make something on the deal as well'. They also chose to use the Halfords scheme, with some credit charge thingy in it, which meant I got a bike cheaper by buying last years model from Halfords myself...
I can provide a contact name by PM if you are interested in trying to get some official numbers on takeup (I work for a large government funded organisation concerned with the supply of drinking water and sewerage services).
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The irony is, that we are encouraged to bike to work and they've invested heavily in new cycle parking. Even moving a workshop, which was under cover and close to the existing cycle parking, to another area so they could place cycle additional Sheffield stands in that area.
I'm on an informal committee to advise them on this and was given a budget to buy tools, a workstand and puncture repair outfits.
We have everything except the most obvious benefit.
My opinion is that this is because I can do everything through other directors, but the Bike2Work scheme HAS to go through HR and the Director of HR refuses to be convinced.
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I've just given up at work. I've pushed and pushed for months. No interest from others (only one other all wetaher cyclist and one fair weather cyclist out of a team of 60 and one of them just bought a new bike off his own back anyway).
So I've just ordered a new bike for £360. It was £400 but I get 10% discount for paying up front.
So not much more expensive then the Cyclescheme after factoring in purchase cost of the bike at the end of the lease period. Plus it's mine straightaway, I don't have to worry about the detail of the paperwork and all the rest of the bureaucracy.
But may there be a pox on the alleged Green Policy that the Company is currently drawing up.
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I believe you work for a public sector organisation in Scotland? WOuld it be possible to contact someone there for a more formal opinion?
..d
It would be - in fact, it was. :) No response yet though. I don't recall being asked if I already had a bike when I joined the scheme last year, so I bet they have no stats about it.
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I am an employee of my own small business. I wont be able to take advantage of the VAT as I am in a scheme, but can set my own scheme (eg via Halfords). Does anyone know if all the paperwork makes doing it worthwhile for a £500 bike?
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I believe you work for a public sector organisation in Scotland? WOuld it be possible to contact someone there for a more formal opinion?
..d
Got a response. Dear Kirsten
There are no stats regarding your request.
Regards
Sorry. :)
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I am an employee of my own small business. I wont be able to take advantage of the VAT as I am in a scheme, but can set my own scheme (eg via Halfords). Does anyone know if all the paperwork makes doing it worthwhile for a £500 bike?
When I looked into this a while back, by far the majority of the saving was swallowed by the scheme operator as finance costs. Add on to that you're tied to supplier and most likely MRP on the bike, you'd be better off getting your company to just buy it. I don't think the VAT would be deductable even through a scheme as the VAT chain has been broken.
If you're on flat-rate VAT, the simple thing to do is make sure the bike costs over £2000 then you can get the VAT back.
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I got this from a colleague at the Uni at which I work.
I went to the Academic Council earlier and was amazed to find cycling was on the agenda. It seems they would like to implement Bike to work "when HERA has been put to bed".
<head of HR> made the observation that Bike to work has minimal environmental impact because most users are existing cyclists seeking to upgrade their equipment rather than genuine mode-switchers. Do you know of any research on this?
Anecdotes are a dime a dozen, but does anyone have any hard evidence on this? What proportion of people taking up the scheme are new cyclists (or by what proportion do cycle journeys to work increase?)
..d
It depends what you mean by "do they work". Who says they only work if non-cyclists start to cycle? Or if car commuters become cycle commuters? What's wrong with someone upgrading and cycling more often? Or even just using the tax perk to buy a new bike.
This is a tax break like many others. If a workplace wants to have a company gym, would they only do it if they could be sure the employees who use it wouldn't have done any exercise without it? Would they only operate the nursery voucher scheme for people who have their first child, or would the scheme still "work" for second and third children? Do they only provide company cars for people who don't already have a car?
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I am an employee of my own small business. I wont be able to take advantage of the VAT as I am in a scheme, but can set my own scheme (eg via Halfords). Does anyone know if all the paperwork makes doing it worthwhile for a £500 bike?
When I looked into this a while back, by far the majority of the saving was swallowed by the scheme operator as finance costs. Add on to that you're tied to supplier and most likely MRP on the bike, you'd be better off getting your company to just buy it. I don't think the VAT would be deductable even through a scheme as the VAT chain has been broken.
If you're on flat-rate VAT, the simple thing to do is make sure the bike costs over £2000 then you can get the VAT back.
Thanks for that. My accountant told me just to buy the bike as a company bike. I dont think I will want to spend 2k on a bike to visit clients with.
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Judging from the very small increase in bikes in our bike shed, most people just use it as a way to get a new bike on the cheap. The "mainly used for work" thing is never audited in any way.