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On The Road / Re: Police bring undercover cyclist operation to Arbroath
« Last post by grams on Today at 12:23:01 pm »
There's a lot of people who try cycling and give up because riding in traffic is shit. If you make it less shit by reducing the need to ride in traffic fewer people give up.

You lot seem to be very keenly in favour of it continuing to be shit forever.
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I may be in the minority, but I'd rather focus on getting drivers to stop having a shitty attitude to cyclists. If we use infrastructure to encourage more cyclists, we're encouraging more cyclists who assume they belong on infrastructure rather than wherever they please. Also, given the increase in popularity of cycling during lockdown without any significant increase in the reach of good quality dedicated infrastructure, I'm not convinced that lack of infrastructure is what puts people off.

To bring us back to the original point of this topic, the existence of cycle paths along the gutter line (or lanes segregated by bollards) really does not contribute to reducing close passes. I suppose it's a bit like cats sitting in a square of tape on the floor as if it were a box. Something about a defined boundary makes (not all) drivers think they're doing just fine as long as they stay on the side of the boundary that hasn't got the cyclist in it.

...

You've got my vote, so it's clearly now a case of minority=minority+1
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It's a wonderful example, but does it give every cyclist the ability to go from every start point to every location?  Or does it encourage them to take a longer route on busy roads in order to get to that farcility?
It was a couple of hundred metres on one road, so obviously it can't go from everywhere to everywhere. I doubt if it encouraged many people to change route, as it was a busy route before that was put in, and still is after it's been removed. All in all, I don't think I'd call it wonderful, having used it, but it is an example that cycle facilities, done in certain ways, can restrict driving to a certain part of the road. Mind you, there's another example on the opposite carriageway, which nobody complains about (though used to): it's a bus lane.

It's strange that not only I thought I recognised the road, the path has been captured on streetview.  I've flicked along it.

I see that as usual the path is obstructed by anti-traffic bollards, and as you say there's a perfectly good bus lane there too.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4572336,-2.5953388,3a,75y,58.55h,77.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s322DcZiPOOQSdSstJ2eGQg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192


I love this one too, a temporary sign telling drivers to use both lanes for the M32, even though clearly one lane has been bollarded off for cycle use only!
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4579847,-2.5927125,3a,75y,73.28h,78.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqvZkS16l11L0alMMhlMAQA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192


Where were cyclists supposed to go when it ended?  Outside lane and signs say the M32!!!!
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4589768,-2.5913728,3a,75y,57.35h,81.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shLYyQngjR6SoTceTlj9dhg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192




Without experience of the whole path, I'd question the usual thing of how a "novice" cyclist is expected to get through the traffic to a path on the offside. (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4563925,-2.5960489,3a,75y,8.54h,55.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTpBN5Ovpgn-WTG_C-pB5Gw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192     or here    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4567574,-2.5950801,3a,75y,9.47h,65.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smng2PhXUTugxLQUrcBTdBQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192   or this junction  https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.456936,-2.5957438,3a,75y,54.2h,72.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1st8AYgvfCxZsQkR9kOpjLQQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192  )


Bearing in mind how little traffic we had during the pandemic (I know September 2020 when they were taken was "busier", but still light, it's also very interesting to see the gridlock when the path was there...  and how little traffic is shown on any previous streetview capture   ::-) ::-) :-\ :-\

Based on what I can see when google drove along there, and without any personal experience of it, I'm not surprised you say it's been taken out.  It looks a classic example of everything that could be done wrongly being done so.
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Example:

It's physically impossible to drive a car in the section of road to the right of the red and white barriers (that whole lane is closed off further back).

This infrastructure, however, no longer exists (it was put in last summer as part of PandemicPanic and ripped out soon after, cos voters and stuff).

OK. Now I understand (although I don't consider most segregated cycle paths to be roads, which is where my confusion arose). But would anyone seriously try to argue that cyclists would be able to ride in the part of the road currently open to cars with that infrastructure there without being subject to intense harassment? And what happens when the infrastructure ends? What do you do then? Dedicated infrastructure encourages the mindset that cyclists belong on a special path, usually shared with pedestrians, and when drivers then encounter cyclists in the wild (so to speak), they think they should continue behaving as if they were using infrastructure -- in other words, getting out of the way of the motorists wot pay road tax innit.

The problem with infrastructure is that it will never go everywhere, it's not suitable for all cycling purposes, it's not as well maintained or designed, and the very existence of it makes it harder for those who would rather stick to the road. I have plenty of experience of new infrastructure being rubbish to use and making drivers on the road more aggressive to cyclists. None of these things should be true. It should be possible to have infrastructure that is well designed and maintained, and for cyclists who would rather stick to being traffic to do so safely. All of this requires a culture change, and that culture change is the same thing that will make sharing space with drivers safer.

I may be in the minority, but I'd rather focus on getting drivers to stop having a shitty attitude to cyclists. If we use infrastructure to encourage more cyclists, we're encouraging more cyclists who assume they belong on infrastructure rather than wherever they please. Also, given the increase in popularity of cycling during lockdown without any significant increase in the reach of good quality dedicated infrastructure, I'm not convinced that lack of infrastructure is what puts people off.

To bring us back to the original point of this topic, the existence of cycle paths along the gutter line (or lanes segregated by bollards) really does not contribute to reducing close passes. I suppose it's a bit like cats sitting in a square of tape on the floor as if it were a box. Something about a defined boundary makes (not all) drivers think they're doing just fine as long as they stay on the side of the boundary that hasn't got the cyclist in it.

Sam
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Caption It / Re: Caption it #1884
« Last post by Canardly on Today at 11:58:49 am »
Farmer introduces new egg production incentive scheme.
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Here's an example of a dedicated traffic and pedestrian free path - https://www.google.com/maps/@50.8164279,-0.33685,3a,75y,55.32h,83.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOboN1qdQg7csZgEMyG44OA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Here's my experience of using it
Evening folks.   On Monday (4th April) I was riding in a group along the front, heading for Brighton.      I'd usually have avoided the cycle path by default (I think of facilities as putting people at more risk) but as the group wanted to use it I followed them.    My worst nightmare came true while I was at the back of the pack and without warning a bollard "separating" the cycle and foot sides appeared from the riders in front and I had no chance of avoiding it in the split second it took for me to get there.

I went straight over the handlebars, damaging the bike and bruising myself.    Luckily I was able to carry on, and even managed the ride the next day up to Canterbury.    But it was frustrating, and I can't moan as it was clearly my fault for cycling into an inanimate object.

Two main reasons for this post.
1) What's the local consensus on this path?    Is it loved, loathed, or no local word on the street?    Am I the first to hit a bollard, or is it a common occurrence?
2) Although everything was on the bike immediately after the crash, once we'd gone over the cycle bridge and got onto the much more pleasant A259 I noticed my computer was missing.    It's only an old Cateye Astrale 8 so has no monetary value and can be replaced, but that one has some little sentimental value to me.     I know it's a long shot, but if you are out and about and spot it please can you PM me?
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Rides and Touring / Re: Mid-Essex Mid-Week Nocturnal Series
« Last post by Oscar's dad on Today at 11:49:25 am »
Is there a plan for this Wednesday?
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It's a wonderful example, but does it give every cyclist the ability to go from every start point to every location?  Or does it encourage them to take a longer route on busy roads in order to get to that farcility?
It was a couple of hundred metres on one road, so obviously it can't go from everywhere to everywhere. I doubt if it encouraged many people to change route, as it was a busy route before that was put in, and still is after it's been removed. All in all, I don't think I'd call it wonderful, having used it, but it is an example that cycle facilities, done in certain ways, can restrict driving to a certain part of the road. Mind you, there's another example on the opposite carriageway, which nobody complains about (though used to): it's a bus lane.
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Caption It / Re: Caption it #1884
« Last post by Wowbagger on Today at 11:44:19 am »
Chick flick.
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Caption It / Re: Caption it #1884
« Last post by Wowbagger on Today at 11:42:39 am »
Hennible Lecter is such a disturbing film.
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