TfL intend to remove unnecessary traffic lights

[hellymedic]

To improve traffic flow.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/10472683.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/Signal%20Removal%20List_01_07_10.pdf

[clarion]

Hmm.

Cross where you're told to.  See?  Quarter of a mile down the road.  And don't go bothering motorists again.  They're important!

[CommuteTooFar]

Half the lights are Pelican crossings.  I personally have always preferred Zebra crossings.  These give control to the pedestrians so the very young and old user has the time they need to cross the road.  If they restore the zebras it is a good thing.

[Jaded]

Half the lights are Pelican crossings.  I personally have always preferred Zebra crossings.  These give control to the pedestrians so the very young and old user has the time they need to cross the road.  If they restore the zebras it is a good thing.

Yes!

[hellymedic]

If they restored zebra crossings. I bet they won't.

[clarion]

If they do.  And even then, what notice will Londinium motorists take?  Beggar all, in most cases!

[simonp]

<mode rant=on>Puffin crossings are the work of stan.  They dwell on red for far too long after the pedestrians have long since crossed.  Whose brain-dead idea were they?</mode>

[Regulator]

Half the lights are Pelican crossings.  I personally have always preferred Zebra crossings.  These give control to the pedestrians so the very young and old user has the time they need to cross the road.  If they restore the zebras it is a good thing.

Let's just be accurate with the figures...

There are 145 sets of lights being removed.

75 of them are junctions lights (non-pedestrian)
38 of them are pelican crossings.
15 of them are toucan crossings.
17 of them are puffin crossings.

Personally, I don't have a problem with junction lights being removed.  Many of them are unnecessary and make junctions less safe for vulnerable road users.

When we lived in Pimlico, the lights near the flat failed a number of times.  Traffic actually flowed better, but the change in drivers' behaviour was what was really good.  They slowed down and gave way to other road users (including cyclists and pedestrians).

As with contraflow cycling, I think that not having lights at junctions makes drivers less certain.  This in turn makes them think more about what is going on around them and to take account of other road users.  

The evidence from Europe seems to be that removing traffic lights, and in some places pedestrian crossings, actually improves road safety as it removes the priority given to drivers.

I'm less sure about the removal of the crossings without seeing the situation of each one.  However, on principle I'm not a huge fan of crossings.  They create a false sense of 'the place of pedestrians'.

Personally, I'm a fan of the naked streets principle.

[Zipperhead]

Let's just be accurate with the figures...

There are 145 sets of lights being removed.

75 of them are junctions lights (non-pedestrian)

Personally, I don't have a problem with junction lights being removed.  Many of them are unnecessary and make junctions less safe for vulnerable road users.

I had a look through that list, one of the "junction" lights is also a pedestrian crossing light - here as you may be able to see, one of the roads has 3 lanes in one direction and two in the other.

Traffic trying to come out of those other turnings will have very little chance, pedestrians, none.

[Ham]

Very sadly, I know an unfortunate number of these crossings. For most of the Central London ones, I can't see that it will make a blind bit of difference to car journey times, and I doubt that (m)any will be missed. Still it is very telling that

 "Kulveer Ranger, the Mayor of London's transport adviser, said: "There are few things more annoying than sitting at a traffic light on red for no apparent reason"

No surprise there, then.

[clarion]

I don't know a lot of those lights very well, but Commonside East/Cedars Ave in Merton is a place it would be madness to remove the lights.

[Ham]

<rant>What amazes me is the average motorist's inability to deal with a junction without traffic lights. The normal approach is to push through slowly regardless, whereas it is as simple as "give way to the right". Instant roundabout. why can't they just include that advice in the Highway code? </rant>

[fuzzy]

I don't really know any of these junctions (and can't see a map if one is provided) but are any of them 4 way crossraod junctions?

I like the American 4 way stop junction where all traffic stops and each road prgresses one vehicle at a time in a rotational basis.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Crossing the road on a zebra crossing somewhere in Bristol the other day, I noticed Little Cudzo was holding his hand out in a stop sign to the (already stopped) traffic. This is a habit he's picked up from India, where it's common practice and effective. What that Bristolian made of it I don't know, but if there were many lights removed in situations like the one Zipperhead posted above, perhaps it would lead to London pedestrians becoming generally more assertive? If so, it might be a good thing - for those who are able to do so, but bad for those who, through infirmity or whatever reason are unable to do so.

[simonp]

The problem with Puffin crossings is the very long red time when no-one's crossing.  I think it generally erodes respect for red lights.  We're talking about 10-20s after the cyclist or ped has crossed and still the light's red, for no good reason.

The lack of a light across the road for the ped is also annoying, as a ped user you have to look down and to the side to see the light, and I don't know why anyone thought putting the light only on this side made any sense.  Moronic, I call it.

[Jaded]

Also the stupid arbitrary wait after you have pressed the button. Supposedly to stop abuse, but what better for an abuser than to be able to press the button and walk off so they are well a way when the light goes red.

[Regulator]

Zebra crossings are good - as they establish the priority of the the most vulnerable road users.

Pelican, puffin and toucan crossings are bad - they're about asserting the priority of the least vulnerable road users... the motorist.

Keep zebras.  Get rid of the others.

Or even better - go for naked streets.

[simonp]

Also the stupid arbitrary wait after you have pressed the button. Supposedly to stop abuse, but what better for an abuser than to be able to press the button and walk off so they are well a way when the light goes red.

I have this on my walk to the caff at lunchtime:

Google Maps

So there are three stages (I am crossing Milton Road from the Science Park and then heading north up Cowley Rd - the crossing visible almost directly ahead).  Each one can cause you to wait for an entire phase so it can take three phases to cross the entire junction as a ped. 

The crossing on Cowley Road seems to have also been deciding recently that it doesn't count if I press the button just before my turn.  I have to then wait for more than an entire phase.  Unsurprisingly, I end up crossing on red much of the time - and because of the complexity of the junction, this can be tricky.

You can also see the cycle path running down the east side of Milton Rd.  Great fun: from the underpass to Cowley Road is 3 separate light controlled crossings in the space of 100m, with cyclists having to push a button at each.

[mark]

I like the American 4 way stop junction where all traffic stops and each road progresses one vehicle at a time in a rotational basis.

The American 4 way stop signs are fine on very lightly traveled roads, but if there is any amount of traffic then the whole process becomes tediously slow, and not as safe as a roundabout. Drivers get impatient, and get confused as to who was next.

[Diver300]

The problem with Puffin crossings is the very long red time when no-one's crossing.  I think it generally erodes respect for red lights.  We're talking about 10-20s after the cyclist or ped has crossed and still the light's red, for no good reason.

Luxury.

10 minutes at an empty junction is what the stupid bloody lights near here did to me one night.

That certainly erodes respect for the lights, the keep left sign and the rules against sounding horns at night or when stationary.

I'm in favour of the continental system of amber flashing in all directions at night.

[mattc]

Crossing the road on a zebra crossing somewhere in Bristol the other day, I noticed Little Cudzo was holding his hand out in a stop sign to the (already stopped) traffic. This is a habit he's picked up from India, where it's common practice and effective. What that Bristolian made of it I don't know, but if there were many lights removed in situations like the one Zipperhead posted above, perhaps it would lead to London pedestrians becoming generally more assertive? If so, it might be a good thing - for those who are able to do so, but bad for those who, through infirmity or whatever reason are unable to do so.

Interesting point ...The infirm would get a couple of benefits:
- Motorists would get used to 'assertive' peds.
- If being assertive just means sticking your hand out (or stick, or zimmer), then even the infirm can do it. Motorists are amazingly respectful of human beings once they are made aware of them.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Yes, it sounds tempting, but in practice one of the reasons why it works in India is due to the general chaos on the roads there. Zebra crossings are few and far between, crossings at lights are irrelevant - you get a green man at the same time as oncoming traffic has a green light  - and so you cross where you can, or where you want to, and traffic progresses in the same way. I don't think either drivers or pedestrians (or cyclists) in the UK would really take to this system.

As an aside, Little C has just built a town out of bricks for his younger cousin - including speed bumps, which are about the only feature used to better effect on Indian roads than UK.