Author Topic: Moulton Experiences?  (Read 7634 times)

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Moulton Experiences?
« Reply #50 on: May 27, 2020, 12:43:49 am »
The loop swingarm on the APB results in worse rear brake placement in that regard than the more conventional TSR swingarm.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Moulton Experiences?
« Reply #51 on: May 27, 2020, 07:05:33 am »
If I have understood correctly, there are AM frames built at Bradford on Avon and TSR frames built at Stratford upon Avon.
There are also APB frames which have a different rear triangle and Land Rover frames that I expect are badged versions of one of the others?
Are there others?
Never knowingly under caffeinated

Re: Moulton Experiences?
« Reply #52 on: May 27, 2020, 07:35:45 am »
Drool. I have always had a soft spot for Moulton. One day. One sweet day.


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LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Moulton Experiences?
« Reply #53 on: May 27, 2020, 08:28:34 am »
There are a million variations on the theme of Moulton but you are basically correct for most of the past 40 years, nobby. Land Rover = APB = Stratford but check out New Series and Double Pylons for some extreme Bradford framebuilding.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Moulton Experiences?
« Reply #54 on: May 27, 2020, 09:45:25 am »
TSRs make nice fixies*, at which point you can toss the rear brake and not worry about pad position as the chain wears.

*pedalling over big bumps is no longer scary
And Darkness and Decay and the Coronavirus held illimitable dominion over all.

Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
  • Overseaing the building of the death star
Re: Moulton Experiences?
« Reply #55 on: May 27, 2020, 12:23:06 pm »
Drool. I have always had a soft spot for Moulton. One day. One sweet day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I got very lucky with my moulton.

Still plan to complete LEL when i get a double pylon ;)


Re: Moulton Experiences?
« Reply #56 on: May 27, 2020, 05:15:52 pm »
ARCC are offering 20% off their e-TSR8 until June 30th. Normal price is about £4k I think.

Re: Moulton Experiences?
« Reply #57 on: May 27, 2020, 06:04:36 pm »
There are a million variations on the theme of Moulton but you are basically correct for most of the past 40 years, nobby. Land Rover = APB = Stratford but check out New Series and Double Pylons for some extreme Bradford framebuilding.
I had several of the MK1's and 2's. You could buy them in junk shops for less than a tenner in those days.
I finally ended up with two Mk3's and a local framemaker refurbished them with bottle lugs and the like but I prefer 20" wheels to 16".

My Dahon Speed TR has taken me on some nice rides but a newer model Moulton is very tempting. As I explained to the wife, who suggested that I had enough bikes, that we only pass this way once and she wouldn't want me on my deathbed bewailing that I hadn't had a modernist Moulton.
Anyway, it's not real money I'll be spending; it's the kid's inheritance. I think they can afford for me to have a not too old TSR.
Never knowingly under caffeinated

Re: Moulton Experiences?
« Reply #58 on: May 27, 2020, 07:59:55 pm »
APB's seem to be a lot older than TSR's and 'much' cheaper.
What are the differences between them please, and are there disadvantages to the one or the other?
Never knowingly under caffeinated

Re: Moulton Experiences?
« Reply #59 on: May 27, 2020, 09:29:46 pm »
APB's seem to be a lot older than TSR's and 'much' cheaper.
What are the differences between them please, and are there disadvantages to the one or the other?

The APB is the precursor to the TSR and the first attempt at a more affordable spaceframe Moulton. Made by Pashley and it introduced 20" wheels on Moultons. The APB is heavier - heavier rear triangle design, and I think plain tubing, wheras the TSR used Reynolds 525 (and some Dedacciai). Like for like probably cheaper componentry than a TSR, although direct comparisons are difficult. The other main design difference is the TSR has a 'unified' rear triangle - the bottom bracket is part of the triangle and not fixed to the bottom of the seat tube, with the suspension pivot further up - to reduce bobbing and suspension losses when pedalling. I don't know if the riding experience is dramatically different, but they are cheaper than TSRs, although I think most came with canti brakes, threaded headset etc. so some restrictions for upgrading and improving.

Re: Moulton Experiences?
« Reply #60 on: May 27, 2020, 09:47:39 pm »
the APB has one other significant difference to most (edit: some?) TSRs; that is tyre size; same 406 size rims, but different tyre clearances.  APB is 'all purpose bicycle' and will accept a wider range of tyre sizes.  By contrast caliper brake TSR models will only accept relatively narrow tyres; IIRC 32mm is about your lot with mudguards  and 28mm provides more convincing mudguard clearance. Neither width offers a huge variety of choice, whereas all kinds of fattish BMX tyres etc will fit into an APB in an emergency; I doubt there are many bike shops without some kind of tyre that will fit an APB. This might make the difference between thinking it is a good idea to carry a spare cover when touring, or not.

Most moultons are a good blank slate to make the bike your really want, APBs more than most because you can end up with a wider variety of outcomes

APB made svelte


Land Rover APB


between the two there are a few different braze-ons and detail differences in the swing arm, but the frames are otherwise the same. Most of the other stuff is standard bicycle equipment and can be swapped about.  If you don't start with the right braze-ons for your 'vision' they have to be added, so it is best to start with the right model if you wish to avoid this.

If you value the practicality of the rear carrier you are more likely to find an APB with one fitted. If you don't value it, no problem, it just unbolts. APBs are -a few quirks notwithstanding- a pretty good introduction to the world of Moultons.

cheers

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Moulton Experiences?
« Reply #61 on: May 27, 2020, 10:07:34 pm »
TSR with dual-pivot brakes has limited clearances but any TSR with V-brakes mounts has significantly more.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Moulton Experiences?
« Reply #62 on: May 27, 2020, 11:22:49 pm »
I just looked at the Moulton company website and I was surprised to see that they have rejigged the model range so that currently, all TSR models have canti bosses and V brakes.  So the TSR models with caliper brakes are gone; there are similar bikes but they have different model names now. I can only think that anyone choosing a new Moulton is likely to be completely bewildered; it isn't always obvious which models share the same (or similar) underpinnings.


current TSR22 model with mini-V brakes and (28mm?) Durano tyres

  I don't know how the clearance compares exactly between TSR (with V brakes) vs APB but I'd expect the APB to be a bit more generous still.  I have run Big Apples in my APB; it was dead comfy (I didn't actually like it that much for other reasons) but there was room for mudguards even with those chubsters on.

My advice to anyone buying a used moulton spaceframe on a budget (which practically means APBs and older TSRs I guess) is to be sure that you get one that will most easily support the gearing/tyre choices you think you might want.  In general this means that the models with fittings for a front derailleur are most versatile; these can normally  be used with IGHs instead provided a tensioner is employed. However going the other way (from IGH model to hybrid gearing or all-derailleur) is often more tricky with gear mountings and cable stops needing significant revision.

I know of one TSR 30 which retains 3x10 gearing but also has a dualdrive type IGH fitted as well (for a theoretical 90 different/not so different  gear ratios). Needless to say there isn't a standard Moulton with enough cable stops etc to support that, so modifications were required.

cheers


Re: Moulton Experiences?
« Reply #63 on: May 28, 2020, 09:29:11 am »
I have on a handful of occasions ridden my father's moulton APB, it is something I hope to inherit. It is well set up with both the massive rear rack / shelf and the front pannier mounts so tours / camps well. Normally my riding it would be utility such as taking something to the tip on his way to work but needing two people to empty the car so put the bike in as well and i could ride home. It was just a pity that we use different cleats so I would have to use the flats of his pedals.

My memories focus on the handling as I can remember going into a corner rather hotter than intended and feeling the front suspension dive slightly under braking before going round as if it was on rails.


Re: Moulton Experiences?
« Reply #64 on: May 28, 2020, 11:27:12 am »
I have an ATB (All Terrain Bike) purchased in 1989. I bought it because the AM7 I bought in 1984 suffered badly from punctures on its unique Wolber tyres. The ATB felt much more solid than the AM7, and better for off road use because it accommodated larger tyres.

The ATB jigs went to Pashley in the 1990s to make the APBs, using cheaper materials. The jigs were later modified for the TSR range.

I still have the ATB, now with an optional tandem centre insert, 14 speed Rohloff hub, disc rear brake, and ARCC electric assist.

I also have a 1986 Double Pylon, the first one sold in the UK. Great bike but I wouldn't buy one at today's price - £19k I believe! The original price was £7k, but Alex Moulton let me have it for £6k, and by the time I sold my 1998 New Series for 2/3 of what I'd paid for it and reclaimed the VAT (company bike!), the net cost was about £2.5k. It's value today is around £10k.

I also have an 18 speed Bridgestone Moulton, and is my favourite because it is an evolution of the original F-frame design of the 1960s, and rides and handles almost as well as the DP. (I still have my 1965 Moulton, though it's not in use.)


Re: Moulton Experiences?
« Reply #65 on: May 28, 2020, 05:27:21 pm »
Thank you everyone.

I don't want to go back to threaded headsets and if the rear triangle pivots from anywhere except around the bottom bracket doesn't it mean that the chain tension is constantly altering? Isn't that bad?
My gearing choice is likely to be a Shimano Alfine 8 or 11; it usually is.
Definitely V brakes if discs are not an option although I note that at least one has a rear disc.
I will want a front pannier carrier. I think that small wheel bikes like weight at the front.
All of which points to a TSR if I have understood.
If an APB turned up at a very reasonable price then all else may go by the board :)
Never knowingly under caffeinated

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Moulton Experiences?
« Reply #66 on: May 28, 2020, 05:39:45 pm »
Moulton rear suspension has such short travel that chain tension makes little difference, even on the non-unified rear triangle jobbies.

APBs also had a front pannier rack option, though the platform front rack might have been more common.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Moulton Experiences?
« Reply #67 on: May 28, 2020, 07:46:54 pm »
yep.   Isn't it even the same front rack mounting between TSR and APB?

Also I'd comment that (presumably because of the long steerer tube, small wheels and suspension) headsets on Moultons have a very easy time of it and  give so little trouble it hardly matters what type they are; they are not likely to go wrong. 

BTW if you don't want rim brakes it is possible to use SA drum brakes front and rear, provided a little engineering is done; they are really very good brakes on wheels of this size.

cheers

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Moulton Experiences?
« Reply #68 on: May 28, 2020, 07:54:51 pm »
A TSR front pannier rack on a APB needs a little bit of coldsetting because the mounting points are not in identical locations but it really is minor.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Moulton Experiences?
« Reply #69 on: May 28, 2020, 08:23:54 pm »
The rationalisation of the current Moultoin range is relatively recent, last six months or so I would say. The caliper braked TSRs have been ditched to avoid overlap with the SSTs (essentailly a TSR with the bugs ironed out). Most of the not so limited 'limited editions' have also fallen by the wayside.

Be aware that not all caliper braked TSRs are the same. Mine is 2009 and has 70mm plus brake drop (which limits me to flexy Tektro R559s or flexy Tektro R559s) whereas some have the usual long-drop caliper spec of 50mm ish. So at some point Moulton dropped the height of the suspension stirrup, at least on some models. Incidentally there's some evidence that it's the stirrup that flexes more than the brake caliper.

New Alfine equipped TSRs come with a rear disc brake, but that's all. A few owners have modified their machines to take discs, which varies from the decidedly homespun to proper welded mounts, although the front caliper needs to become a leading caliper on the off-side rather than the usual trailing on the near side. I've contemplated the same but can't justify the expense. I've always thought the hub brake to be an under-expored area of bicyle development.

Nobby: the moultonbuzz web site is pretty dead, but the classified section does still have occassional new posts. I got my TSR via the Yahoo Moulton group but Yahoo wound up groups recently. However, this site has started as a substitute: https://groups.io/g/moultonbicycle and is free to join so a wanted post in there might be fruitful.

Re: Moulton Experiences?
« Reply #70 on: May 28, 2020, 09:00:46 pm »
My TSR (ex-slope) has medium-drop Ultegra brakes.  Well, brake.
And Darkness and Decay and the Coronavirus held illimitable dominion over all.

slope

  • Ride Fettle Ride
    • Current pedalable joys
Re: Moulton Experiences?
« Reply #71 on: May 28, 2020, 10:13:40 pm »
^ which was possibly the last available TSR 30 frame* only - (purchased 2016 from Fudges, Paddington) - before Moulton stopped their dealers selling less than complete bikes in the UK

And I'm sure rogerzilla will agree - the Ultegra R650 57mm (medium) drop dual pivot caliper [perfectly suited to the 2016 TSR30 frameset, as opposed to V brake TSR27 frames of the same era] is a fab lovely shiny silver brake (much stiffer than the Tektro 57mm drop offerings) - sadly no longer available it seems  :(

* will take up to 30mm tyre and mudguards with satisfactory clearance :thumbsup:


LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Moulton Experiences?
« Reply #73 on: May 31, 2020, 10:30:07 am »
My current TSR30 was picked up for PBP11 and my PBP07 TSR30 both use 50mm drop dual pivots, so I suspect 70mm drop dual-pivot brakes were only used for a very short time.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Moulton Experiences?
« Reply #74 on: May 31, 2020, 03:33:32 pm »

Nobby: the moultonbuzz web site is pretty dead, but the classified section does still have occassional new posts. I got my TSR via the Yahoo Moulton group but Yahoo wound up groups recently. However, this site has started as a substitute: https://groups.io/g/moultonbicycle and is free to join so a wanted post in there might be fruitful.

Thanks for that link.

I may have an improvement in my prospects. I was casually conversing with my wife and she said, "Why not have test ride and then think about a new one."
The test ride is a good idea but I don't know that I want to spend the thick end of two grand. The bike would, however, at least be exactly as I think I want it and Traditional Bicycles at Stratford on Avon is close by.

Following TSR's and APB's on eBay I have noticed that the APB's bottom connecting tube is angled differently to the TSR's. Just a design difference I suppose but it makes fit look sway backed.
Never knowingly under caffeinated