300km event for a mere £159

[Greenbank]

There are sportive riders and potential sportive riders who do not realise they would *love* Audax. Why on earth wouldn't we tempt them with a full TLC ride?

I think the pool of sportive riders that would get and *love* Audax is smaller than you think.

Sure there are plenty of people that currently ride sportives that would be happy riding an Audax for a change of pace but discussing this with riders from my local club the main draw of sportives are:-
* routes shown clearly shown on the website with outline maps or links to GPX files and exact elevation figures
* fast pace (including being able to average >30kph) and the sense that it is kind of a race
* food stops (energy bars/gels, bananas, drinks) at the side of the road (they don't want to have to get off and leave their bikes while they go into a scout hut or village hall)
* electronic timing/validation with finish times published on a website (along with gold/silver/bronze time categories)
* large fields of riders

Some of those are just incompatible with Audax by definition.

We've seen that rides that put effort into marketing have had some large turnouts or quickly fill up. Ditchling Devil, the KWAC rides, some of the Bristol rides, Severn Across London-Wales-London. It's amazing what a rebranding, a separate flashy website, and spreading it around local cycling clubs can do for popularity.

But you can't escape the fact that many Sportive riders just want a route to follow, have access to some easy to grab assistance (roadside stops, not TLC for rides of 200km or less) and to effectively be able to ride non-stop (as in not having to dismount their bike, they may stop at the refuelling stops). The concept of a routesheet and a Brevet Card are a complete anathema to them. (I've said it elsewhere but I'd be surprised if in 5 years AUK isn't offering validation for calendar events by GPX tracklog - just like you can do for DIYxGPS now. You can even take away the manual job of uploading it to AUK for validation: Enter a ride, link your Strava/GarminConnect/etc account if you haven't already, ride, upload, AUK scrapes the Strava link and validation is automatic if the route is followed closely enough.)

The main AUK website redesign may sort a lot of the marketing/presentation side out, especially if the existing information (elevation, route, etc) is presented up front (many people are unaware that there are GPX files hidden inside a zip file link on the calendar event page).

[jsabine]

Some organisers choose to 'step up to the plate' and 'put on a show', some organisers choose to run X-rated events. Both types of event seem pretty popular with riders, so I don't think there's any real pressure on potential organisers to choose one route or the other.

True, but with a handful of full TLC events in a pool of 500 events, don't you think that the balance is skewed towards the x-rated?

As I said before, in 2018 over 90% of the membership will not be able to ride a single TLC event event if they really wanted to.

You said that up there^^^ somewhere, and I pointed out that it simply is not true. I don't know why you are repeating it.

You said that you were judging TLC provision on 400km+ rides based on the event price, but that's not enough - Shawn Shaw's events (Porkers and Brimstone) are only a tenner, and he doesn't list facilities on the webpage, but if you look at the routesheet you'll find a lot more included.

As PaulH says, most events offer some mixture of TLC balanced with use of commercial controls.

The vast majority out there can complete a 200 in less than 10 hours with limited provision of food and be home for a proper dinner.

I'd love to see your basis for this assertion.

[whosatthewheel]

I'd love to see your basis for this assertion.

Well, sticking around at the end of a 200, within an hour or so I have seen the vast majority of folks who were at the start... it's not scientific, of course and it is a small sample... however, that is not the point, if you prefer 11 hours as a figure, it works just as well... most people tend to be home for dinner after a 200, being that a late dinner if you like... you start at 8, you finish at 7 you are back home at 8 or 9PM

[Peter]

How old are you - and are you a flat-lander?

[jsabine]

I'd love to see your basis for this assertion.

Well, sticking around at the end of a 200, within an hour or so I have seen the vast majority of folks who were at the start...

So about as valid as my perception that about half the field finish within a couple of hours of the limit.

(A perception that is subject to pure confirmation bias, because I generally finish within a couple of hours of the limit, and I am clearly typical, at any rate in my own mind.)

[Veloman]

Home for dinner?

Assuming the event is in my village then perhaps! Otherwise tosh.

Assuming 125 miles (200 km) means an average of 12.5mph for 10 hrs with no stops for checkpoints or refilling bottles etc or for any social aspects which forms a large part of the audax scene.  11 hrs needs an average of just over 11 mph which again is eminently feasible but assumes no stops etc.  You can easily have 30 mins at a stop when having a sociable ride on an audax and in many respects those riding the longer events have a stop mindset as it is needed to refuel etc. (LWaB is a stickler for 20 min stops)

Sportive riders often have a different mindset and may not have the synergy with audax events. I recall one chap I met on LEL who threatened to punch my lights out for having the temerity to move up in front of him as he was not drafting as well as he could have. Saw him with various other riders, always drafting and never doing his turn.  He was moving from sportive riding to an audax event and just wanted a fast time.

The concept of start at 8 to finish at 7 and back home for tea and medals by 8 or 9 is quite amusing.  How about having a cup of tea at the finish and a chat with old faces you have seen on other events? The difference between sportive riders and the audax community.

[whosatthewheel]

How old are you - and are you a flat-lander?

45... not really, no... I have done 200 k with AAA points in less than 9 hours comfortably. The only 200 that took me 5 minutes over 9 hours was one of Undulates Welsh ones. I don't hang about at controls, that's the thing... hence why I like TLC events, where I don't have to spend an hour in a town I never wanted to stop in the first place.
So it's generally a service station for me, which is typically underwhelming in terms of food choice

[citoyen]

I reckon the majority of cyclists of my acquaintance aren't interested in riding more than four hours - never mind back home in time for tea, it's more like back home in time for lunch.

A six-hour sportive is a rare and special event for most cyclists.

[Peter]

How old are you - and are you a flat-lander?

45... not really, no... I have done 200 k with AAA points in less than 9 hours comfortably. The only 200 that took me 5 minutes over 9 hours was one of Undulates Welsh ones. I don't hang about at controls, that's the thing... hence why I like TLC events, where I don't have to spend an hour in a town I never wanted to stop in the first place.
So it's generally a service station for me, which is typically underwhelming in terms of food choice

So, how old are you?

[Veloman]

How old are you - and are you a flat-lander?

45

So, how old are you?

my bold Question already answered.

Which adds another layer of interest in terms of demograph of sportive and audax riders which is overplayed with point made by Citoyen regarding time spent riding (which is no doubt related to other considerations such as family etc).

Not quite chalk and cheese.

[whosatthewheel]

Which adds another layer of interest in terms of demograph of sportive and audax riders which is overplayed with point made by Citoyen regarding time spent riding (which is no doubt related to other considerations such as family etc).

Not quite chalk and cheese.

I used to do more sportive than Audaxes... then I got a membership in 2016 and began to do more and solely Audaxes.

I got frustrated with sportives, they are mostly (with a couple of notable exceptions) impersonal, people just want to go as fast as they humanly can, so they can brag on Strava... there is hardly a social element.
You would think that when I've finished the Fred Whitton (180 km and 3400 vertical metres up the steep lakes passes) in under 8 hours I would be among the first, but I was hardly in the top third of the finishers.
I got fed up as I am getting older, not faster and I am not interested in riding at 60 Km/h with my head down following a bunch of wheels.

The world of Audax is very different. That said, I never liked commercial controls. Even more so when they are in busy or touristy towns and it takes you ages to find somewhere that is not packed to sit down.
So I typically resort to a fast control strategy... mini-markets, service stations, convenience stores... basically I end up eating junk, which is not good.
It's great when you can park your bike, get in a village hall, get your card stamped, grab a hearty meal home cooked and be back on the saddle in 15 minutes

[Peter]

Ah, sorry - "I read the no, not really" as referring to the age, rather than the flatlander bit.  Yes, I guess it's down to what you want from a ride, so there's room for everything, I think.  I wasn't riding audaxes when I was 45 but would have easily been in whosatthewheel's demographic - not any longer!  I don't see that many from that group on the audaxes I attend, these days.

[whosatthewheel]

Ah, sorry - "I read the no, not really" as referring to the age, rather than the flatlander bit.  Yes, I guess it's down to what you want from a ride, so there's room for everything, I think.  I wasn't riding audaxes when I was 45 but would have easily been in whosatthewheel's demographic - not any longer!  I don't see that many from that group on the audaxes I attend, these days.

There is a function on the AUK website where you can look at the average age of the finishers... I seem to recall the last National 400 was 48... which is quite typical for most BR and BRM.

[mattc]

I reckon the majority of cyclists of my acquaintance aren't interested in riding more than four hours - never mind back home in time for tea, it's more like back home in time for lunch.

A six-hour sportive is a rare and special event for most cyclists.

Sounds about right. And this is why I think long-distance cycling will always be a niche hobby.

What most people want is a "Day Ride". A subset can't spare a whole day [due to Real Life, or a short attention span], so "Home for Lunch" is appealing to them.

A "Day Ride" is quite a flexible feast ... depending on speed, "stopping strategy", time required to get to the event etc; but I think we can say that it rules out 300km events for most potential "customers".

I totally get the appeal of A Nice Day Out. I've had many on the bike; either CTC rides to lovely places, or 200km rides that started locally in June/July. etc. But they're not a proper adventure - that's what "Long Distance" means to me. Discuss


[I don't actually think that "Real Life" is the biggest show-stopper; plenty of people make multi-day trips to foreign sportives ... just to ride for 6 hours. If they take 8 they are disappointed ]

[Kim]

The motivation for people to do an event like the London Revolution is very different as well. The focus is specifically on charity so it attracts a very different kind of rider to a typical audax. When I did the Ride Across Britain (same organisers), many of my fellow riders had taken up cycling less than a year prior to starting the event.

Indeed.  I know people who habitually do this sort of thing.  One year it might be a cycling event, the next they'll be climbing a mountain or whatever.  It's about doing 'a challenge', and the charity aspect is important.  Complete opposite of my "it's an overpirced bike ride" where I always feel deeply uncomfortable about the idea of getting sponsored for something I'd do for fun.

The chaperones are an interesting feature. On the RAB, they were great - providing copious assistance and guidance to less confident riders, as well as (lightly) policing rider behaviour on the road, and providing suitable company for even the fastest riders. They're all hugely experienced riders. One of them was a chap called Maurice Burton. Some of you may have heard of him.

Interesting.  I was going to ask what a chaperone was in this context.

[whosatthewheel]

I reckon the majority of cyclists of my acquaintance aren't interested in riding more than four hours - never mind back home in time for tea, it's more like back home in time for lunch.

A six-hour sportive is a rare and special event for most cyclists.

Sounds about right. And this is why I think long-distance cycling will always be a niche hobby.

What most people want is a "Day Ride". A subset can't spare a whole day [due to Real Life, or a short attention span], so "Home for Lunch" is appealing to them.

A "Day Ride" is quite a flexible feast ... depending on speed, "stopping strategy", time required to get to the event etc; but I think we can say that it rules out 300km events for most potential "customers".

I totally get the appeal of A Nice Day Out. I've had many on the bike; either CTC rides to lovely places, or 200km rides that started locally in June/July. etc. But they're not a proper adventure - that's what "Long Distance" means to me. Discuss


[I don't actually think that "Real Life" is the biggest show-stopper; plenty of people make multi-day trips to foreign sportives ... just to ride for 6 hours. If they take 8 they are disappointed ]

Tell you what, when I threw in the idea of entering LWL 400 among a few friends (non AUK members and mostly sportive types) who live locally to the start, they all laughed, but when I explained that there were manned controls with food, they began to listen. In fact, had it not been for the fact that it sold out in hours, ALL of them were prepared to enter, despite never having ridden more than 200 km in a day

[mattc]

Sorry, but I have no idea what your anecdata shows. Humour me and spell it out please!

[Peter]

There is a function on the AUK website where you can look at the average age of the finishers... I seem to recall the last National 400 was 48... which is quite typical for most BR and BRM.

Yes, I know.  Fortunately (?) there is no indication of how long they took!  Just anecdotally, I would guess the average age to be considerably higher on the rides I am involved in - and not just because of me!  I have ridden and volunteered in recent National 400s and a fair number of people of all allowable ages were close to the limits - and lots weren't, so, as usual, there's not much to conclude from my comments!

peter

[whosatthewheel]

Sorry, but I have no idea what your anecdata shows. Humour me and spell it out please!

That even folks who like a 4-6 hours ride might be prepared to go the full distance in the presence of adequate TLC... basically I am agreeing with the OP.
Much less likely to be able to sell them an x-rated 400

[grams]

I reckon the majority of cyclists of my acquaintance aren't interested in riding more than four hours - never mind back home in time for tea, it's more like back home in time for lunch.

A six-hour sportive is a rare and special event for most cyclists.

It's worth noting that for the event that prompted this thread, the main version of it is two 150 km days with a catered camping stop in the middle. The 300 km one-dayer is only targeted at super fast cyclists, with a time limit to match, and it's the first year it's run, so it remains to be seen what the audience for it is.

[whosatthewheel]

300 km one-dayer is only targeted at super fast cyclists, with a time limit to match, and it's the first year it's run, so it remains to be seen what the audience for it is.

I think the 300 version will be popular. There are long sportives, just not in the UK. The Majorca 312 is extremely popular and it's quite hilly, well, at least the first half is.
In Italy there is a Milan-Sanremo granfondo, which is 295 km, same course as the race.
And then of course the Eroica in Tuscany is only 210, but it's very lumpy and half of it is on gravel roads and aside those like me who use a "modern" 1980s machine with a 6 speed freewheel, many do it on bikes which are 70 years old. Every year it attracts thousands.



There is a large appetite for big rides, if well marketed and supported.

The market for a "pick up a card and post it when you have finished" 400 km ride is much more limited.

[Paul H]

What most people want is a "Day Ride". A subset can't spare a whole day [due to Real Life, or a short attention span], so "Home for Lunch" is appealing to them.

A "Day Ride" is quite a flexible feast ... depending on speed, "stopping strategy", time required to get to the event etc; but I think we can say that it rules out 300km events for most potential "customers".

What rules them out as a regular event also puts them on the wish list as an occasional challenge.  The ride in the OP is probably the highlight of many participants cycling year, I see the package includes a 16 week training guide.  I know a few people who do such things, they'll spend loads of time and effort planning and training, take time off work to rest before and recover after. The investment in time and effort dwarfs the entry fee and because of that the expectation is high and it'll be considered good value for money if it lives up to it.
I've never invested that much in an Audax, nor do I want to, I'm looking for that good days ride and am time rich enough not to mind if it spills into the next day.  If it turns out to be not such a good days ride for whatever reason, that's OK, I can do another.  If I knew I could get decent shelter and food overnight I'd be tempted to do some longer ones, I don't need or particularly want any more than that.  Of course it'd be good if they appealed to a wider group, but not if that changes what they already are.

[whosatthewheel]

Of course it'd be good if they appealed to a wider group, but not if that changes what they already are.

Well, to start it would be a series of four rides over one year... so less than 1% of all AUK events, unlikely to change the way things are run. We already have (had) one National event and the one I did was by a long mile the best cycling event I have ever taken part in, audax or not... maybe on par with the Eroica in Tuscany.
The TLC is what made it special. The route was grand, but to be honest it's not hard to plan a great route in Wales, anyone can do that... what it is more difficult is to deliver a memorable event.

[Peter]

We may have met.

[grams]

I think the 300 version will be popular. There are long sportives, just not in the UK. The Majorca 312 is extremely popular and it's quite hilly, well, at least the first half is.
In Italy there is a Milan-Sanremo granfondo, which is 295 km, same course as the race.
And then of course the Eroica in Tuscany is only 210, but it's very lumpy and half of it is on gravel roads and aside those like me who use a "modern" 1980s machine with a 6 speed freewheel, many do it on bikes which are 70 years old. Every year it attracts thousands.

Are those closed roads events? There's no doubt a huge appetite for that in and of itself. A world away from any sort of audax though.