Author Topic: Giro 2018  (Read 17137 times)

Samuel D

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #175 on: May 29, 2018, 11:27:51 am »
However, there is a bigger perspective to this than 'the case'. As you will no doubt be aware, criminals are frequently acquitted for their crimes by courts. We all know of such people, and we dont start pretending that they havent committed crimes just because a prosecution lawyer fails to prove it.

You must not realise the implications of these statements. Society certainly ‘pretends’ that people who haven’t been successfully prosecuted are innocent. This is inherent to Dicey’s rule of law. It’s what being civilised means.

If Froome succeeds in escaping this AAF it will not change my overall view of whether he is or isn't a clean athlete.

Oh, I know! You are not interested in striving for objective truth since you already ‘know’ your truth. You can feel it in your belly. You’re proud that you’re not hoodwinked by established experts.

I feel something in my belly too when I survey this thread, but it’s not truth.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #176 on: May 29, 2018, 11:35:17 am »
I knew you would respond with both those points. Entirely predictable.

Civilisation doesn't hinge on cycling. Besides, does the law provide objectivity? Perhaps youve never had the unedifying experience of sitting on a jury.

Many of us rightly suspected Armstrong of being guilty of doping despite his innocence.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #177 on: May 29, 2018, 11:36:54 am »
I wonder what the 'opposing camps' will make of this...

Br J Clin Pharmacol. 2018 May 3.
Futility of current urine salbutamol doping control
Heuberger JAAC et al.
That study is super dodgy.
Read this thread: https://twitter.com/scienceofsport/status/993413989890707457?lang=en
The author's other work includes a study that "demonstrates" that EPO use does not improve performance in cyclists.  :o There's at least one other interview out there with the authors who state that drug use cannot improve performance, it can only bring it back to that of a healthy individual.

Samuel
Read the above thread and look at the other studies.  I believe that the 1429 number is after adjusting for dehydration. The studies quoted include more puffs on the inhaler than Froome says he took (he says he only took a couple at the finish, whereas all the models are simulating all the allowed puffs in one go), and in only one case was the individual over 1000, and that was by 29, not by 429.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #178 on: May 29, 2018, 12:01:48 pm »
I'm most interested in the 'informal' aspects of the status of team leaders in the Peloton. Teams and riders always profess to be 'clean', and to aspire to 'clean-up' the sport. That satisfies the sponsors, who may wish to distance themselves from corruption.

The Peloton's a gang though, with its own views. Most riders are domestiques, and rely on their leader winning. Suspicion of Froome connects him to the Peloton. If he projected an image of purity, that would alienate his fellow riders. Sky appear sufficiently impure to operate successfully within their milieu. 

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #179 on: May 29, 2018, 12:23:13 pm »
It's hard to know.

20 years ago, the vow of public silence reigned but with openness between riders as to their various nefarious methods. Unsurprising in an era of team-sponsored doping and movement between teams on a yearly basis.  Riders who ignored the public vow of silence were chased out. Witness Bassons, who spoke publically and repeatedly about doping, and Simeoni who testified against Lance's doctor, Michele Ferrari. Witness also the difference in treatment meted out by other riders when riders were busted depending on picking order and popularity.  Basso vs The Cobra.

Then it went underground, with riders not discussing their doping strategies with other riders. These days? There seem to be coded and not-so-coded messages from riders on occasions, such as from Dumoulin, who now prefers not to comment.

In the final analysis, pro cycling is part of the entertainment industry and not purely about supreme athleticism.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #180 on: May 29, 2018, 09:13:43 pm »
I think you'll always get cheating in power sports like athletics and cycling.  Even some of the guys at your local club "10" are probably taking something, whether it's to win or just to try and hang on to a PB as they age.  It's been going on since the early days (although the Pelissier brothers were yanking the journo's chain in "Les Forçats De La Route") but the pharmacology evolves.
Never tell me the odds.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #181 on: May 29, 2018, 09:14:50 pm »
Froome Finistere power details have been released on the internet. I’ll get a link soon.

LEE

  • "Shut Up Jens" - Legs.
Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #182 on: May 29, 2018, 09:19:08 pm »
Froome Finistere power details have been released on the internet. I’ll get a link soon.

Only a small amount of power data has been released (3km of the climb)

Froome - 397W
Dumoulin - 395W

Froome actually whooped Dumoulin on the descent.

Froome's amazing performance MAY come down to the lack of real quality within the lead contenders + Team SKY's dominance at setting their riders up for days like this.

Would like to see average power stats from the breakaway to the end though.  That was basically a 2 man TT (I don't think Dumoulin was receiving much in the way of help from Pinot and the others)
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #183 on: May 29, 2018, 09:20:43 pm »
I think you'll always get cheating in power sports like athletics and cycling.  Even some of the guys at your local club "10" are probably taking something, whether it's to win or just to try and hang on to a PB as they age.  It's been going on since the early days (although the Pelissier brothers were yanking the journo's chain in "Les Forçats De La Route") but the pharmacology evolves.

Ever read the list of what's banned? sudofed is banned at concentrations over 150µg/litre in urine. How many standard cough pills do you need to take to be over the limit there?

The question comes into if people are doing it intentionally...

J



--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #184 on: May 29, 2018, 09:34:47 pm »
I don't think salbutamol would help Froome all that much.  Even if he is asthmatic, asthma normally relieves itself after about 20 minutes of exercise.  The inhaler is just to get you through that first 20 minutes, otherwise you'd be sitting at the side of the road wheezing.  It has a few minor side-effects but I don't think they're particularly beneficial.

The suspicion on my part arises from the fact that previous Grand Tour winners have been cheats or genetic freaks, sometimes both at once.  Merckx: genetic freak.  Anquetil: genetic freak (look at his appalling lifestyle).  LeMond: genetic freak, look at his VO2 - it was off the scale.  Hinault: genetic freak (rock-hard Breton farming genes) and intimidating to other riders.  Delgado: cheat.  Armstrong: cheat.  Pantani: cheat.  Ullrich: cheat.  Then Sky turn out two clean winning riders in succession, just like that.
Never tell me the odds.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #185 on: May 29, 2018, 09:42:07 pm »
You missed out Indurain  :)
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #186 on: May 29, 2018, 10:05:01 pm »
You missed out Indurain  :)
Genetic freak to end all genetic freaks  :thumbsup:
Never tell me the odds.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #187 on: May 29, 2018, 10:11:50 pm »
Major EPO user

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #188 on: May 29, 2018, 10:23:31 pm »
Both of the above.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #189 on: May 29, 2018, 11:00:10 pm »
It's hard to know.

20 years ago, the vow of public silence reigned but with openness between riders as to their various nefarious methods.

Then it went underground, with riders not discussing their doping strategies with other riders.
In the final analysis, pro cycling is part of the entertainment industry and not purely about supreme athleticism.

Atlanta 96 was the first Olympic games with the pros, and when they came under the scrutiny of the men in blazers. The collapse of the Soviet Empire released a lot of the expertise that corrupted Corinthian ideals. You could argue that Barcelona 1992 represented the purest moment in the modern era.

They shouldn't have integrated the amateur and professional bodies in my opinion. It imposes an inappropriate template on a commercial activity. 

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #190 on: May 29, 2018, 11:52:11 pm »
1984 Olympics had the yank cyclists blood transfusing.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #191 on: May 30, 2018, 09:25:42 am »
I don't think salbutamol would help Froome all that much.  Even if he is asthmatic, asthma normally relieves itself after about 20 minutes of exercise.  The inhaler is just to get you through that first 20 minutes, otherwise you'd be sitting at the side of the road wheezing.  It has a few minor side-effects but I don't think they're particularly beneficial.

The suspicion on my part arises from the fact that previous Grand Tour winners have been cheats or genetic freaks, sometimes both at once.  Merckx: genetic freak.  Anquetil: genetic freak (look at his appalling lifestyle).  LeMond: genetic freak, look at his VO2 - it was off the scale.  Hinault: genetic freak (rock-hard Breton farming genes) and intimidating to other riders.  Delgado: cheat.  Armstrong: cheat.  Pantani: cheat.  Ullrich: cheat.  Then Sky turn out two clean winning riders in succession, just like that.

It does wonders in intensive pig farming (where men in white coats also cut off piggy balls; perhaps we should suggest that to Sky's doctors  :sick: )

Not a great GT winner but in the rock hard farming stock you could include Quintana and Poulidor (obviously breton artichokes are more rock hard than limousin cattle); also I think Louison Bobet.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #192 on: May 30, 2018, 10:38:41 am »
I knew you would respond with both those points. Entirely predictable.

Civilisation doesn't hinge on cycling. Besides, does the law provide objectivity? Perhaps youve never had the unedifying experience of sitting on a jury.

Many of us rightly suspected Armstrong of being guilty of doping despite his innocence.

Flatus, no nastiness intended but what do you think would be necessary to convince you that Froome is clean? Since I have now come round to your point of view after a long while sitting on the fence with my legs dangling on the optimisyic side, I feel in need of one or two reference points. What has convinced me is that there are too many inconsistencies in this last Giro. I am starting to see similarities with Armstrong's performance curve (and mental attitude).

Is a belief that rules don't apply to them common to dopers? I have become convinced that drugs have a negative impact on the capacity to make logical decisions.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #193 on: May 30, 2018, 10:56:44 am »
I don't think salbutamol would help Froome all that much.  Even if he is asthmatic, asthma normally relieves itself after about 20 minutes of exercise.  The inhaler is just to get you through that first 20 minutes, otherwise you'd be sitting at the side of the road wheezing.  It has a few minor side-effects but I don't think they're particularly beneficial.
Your view supports that referenced by Flatus earlier:

Dr. Tom Bassindale: I was surprised that something as innocuous as Salbutamol would cause a positive test with Chris Froome. It’s an unlikely drug to take for performance-enhancing use. The evidence is quite mixed, and studies suggest toward it not being performance-enhancing. If you are an asthmatic, it only gets you back to ‘normal’ breathing, and there’s not a huge boost beyond that when taken as an inhaler.
Read more at http://www.velonews.com/2017/12/news/anti-doping-expert-on-froome-it-doesnt-quite-add-up_453381#Cb4GFOsmvVHJeLyV.99

Quote from: rogerzilla
The suspicion on my part arises from the fact that previous Grand Tour winners have been cheats or genetic freaks, sometimes both at once.  Merckx: genetic freak.  Anquetil: genetic freak (look at his appalling lifestyle).  LeMond: genetic freak, look at his VO2 - it was off the scale.  Hinault: genetic freak (rock-hard Breton farming genes) and intimidating to other riders.  Delgado: cheat.  Armstrong: cheat.  Pantani: cheat.  Ullrich: cheat.  Then Sky turn out two clean winning riders in succession, just like that.
this is the problem with Guilt By Suspicion - the human mind is crap at evaluating probabilities. We see patterns and make conclusions - but natural chance creates patterns too. It is inevitable that at some point the next genetic freak will be hired by a team that already has one. That doesn't rule out cheating, but I'm just pointing out some realities ...


(leaving probability aside - wasn't Wiggo a very successful track rider before Sky assimilated him into their evil machine of world road-racing domination? froome, maybe not ... )
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #194 on: May 30, 2018, 11:00:37 am »
I have become convinced that drugs have a negative impact on the capacity to make logical decisions.

Bloody Hell!  I seem to have been on something all my life.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #195 on: May 30, 2018, 11:20:21 am »
Dr. Tom Bassindale: I was surprised that something as innocuous as Salbutamol would cause a positive test with Chris Froome. It’s an unlikely drug to take for performance-enhancing use. The evidence is quite mixed, and studies suggest toward it not being performance-enhancing. If you are an asthmatic, it only gets you back to ‘normal’ breathing, and there’s not a huge boost beyond that when taken as an inhaler.
Read more at http://www.velonews.com/2017/12/news/anti-doping-expert-on-froome-it-doesnt-quite-add-up_453381#Cb4GFOsmvVHJeLyV.99
My bold. The limit is there, not to stop riders using their inhalers, or because taking 9 puffs when they should have 8 is going to confer some great advantage, but to prevent oral and injected use which apparently has similar effects to kenacort *.

Whether Froome's "2 or 3 puffs" after the end of the race are responsible for his concentration of 1429 is what we are all waiting for this case to determine. Unless Brailsford writes a tell all book in which he spills beans right left and centre, then I suspect we'll never get beyond suspicion and inuendo about all this stuff. There's too much smoke now - I reckon that the only way that Froome could be cleared in the court of public opinion would be for someone at the drugs lab to be caught spiking Sky tests...

*citation needed - will have to look it up in a bit if I get a chance.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #196 on: May 30, 2018, 11:36:52 am »
I think you'll always get cheating in power sports like athletics and cycling.  Even some of the guys at your local club "10" are probably taking something, whether it's to win or just to try and hang on to a PB as they age.  It's been going on since the early days (although the Pelissier brothers were yanking the journo's chain in "Les Forçats De La Route") but the pharmacology evolves.

Ever read the list of what's banned? sudofed is banned at concentrations over 150µg/litre in urine. How many standard cough pills do you need to take to be over the limit there?

The question comes into if people are doing it intentionally...

J

For professional riders, they will have to check everything with the team doctors. Riders have been sacked for not following this protocol, even if the substance is not banned. When I used to work with pro teams I kept a MIMS with me, and riders knew to check everything. It’s well known that cough and cold remedies are especially problematic.

I do think that at the more amateur levels of the sport ignorance may occur, but recent cases have shown that the principle of absolute liability holds fast.

If a sportive is a UCI event then riders may get tested.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #197 on: May 30, 2018, 11:50:39 am »
I knew you would respond with both those points. Entirely predictable.

Civilisation doesn't hinge on cycling. Besides, does the law provide objectivity? Perhaps youve never had the unedifying experience of sitting on a jury.

Many of us rightly suspected Armstrong of being guilty of doping despite his innocence.

Flatus, no nastiness intended but what do you think would be necessary to convince you that Froome is clean? Since I have now come round to your point of view after a long while sitting on the fence with my legs dangling on the optimisyic side, I feel in need of one or two reference points. What has convinced me is that there are too many inconsistencies in this last Giro. I am starting to see similarities with Armstrong's performance curve (and mental attitude).

Is a belief that rules don't apply to them common to dopers? I have become convinced that drugs have a negative impact on the capacity to make logical decisions.

Unfortunately nothing would convince me, and that is because I'm not looking at a single event such as Stage 19 of the Giro but the whole context of Froome's place in cycling, and the conduct of his team, Sky.

If you look at the most vociferous pro-Froome posters on this thread, whether it be Samuel or Veloman and his sockpuppet 'A Cyclist',  their entire argument rests on whether he has failed a drugs test (ditto Wiggins). Of course we know from prior experience that passing dope tests tells us little about the cleanliness of the rider in question. The biggest busts have come about from price actions and whistle-blowers, and careful athletes can beat the anti-doping system.

Riders cannot prove they are clean. and therefore benefit of the doubt can be accorded, or in other words a little suspension of disbelief.

However, what do you do when certain events are have no credible explanation? For me Froome stands out head and shoulders above everybody because prior to Vuelta 2011 he had no pedigree. No wins of note. Nothing. A few weeks before the Vuelta he was climbing with the gruppetto. He was a mediocre mountain domestique who's team were looking to pass him off to a pro-continental team when his contract was up at the end of the season.

And then he nearly won the Vuelta (2nd). The following year he was clearly the strongest rider in the TdF and would have likely won had he not been working for Wiggins. The rest is history. Of course, when questions started to be asked about this miracle transformation from low-grade nobody to the greatest tour rider of his generation we were fed the Bilharzia story, which poses more questions than it answers, for example why did he not show any signs of brilliance before he contracted bilharzia, and why didn't Team Sky, self-professed masters of detail, not pick it up until the final weeks of his contract?

In recent years we have been made aware that Team Sky used TUEs to win races. One of their key players, Shane Sutton, admitted that this self-proclaimed "whiter than white" team are unethical.

So here we have an unethical team, caught out lying on numerous occasions, caught abusing the TUE system for competitive advantage, freely using Tramadol, ordering Testosterone patches et etc etc employing a rider with the most astonishing of transformations.

Hmmm...Nothing to see here  :facepalm:

So is he doping now? Who knows. It may well be that he did something 7 years ago that changed him forever. Something within him changed profoundly and for the life of me I can't find a precedent. Even transformations due to EPO (such as Ricco) were not as stark.  He is on his way to becoming the greatest Grand Tour rider ever....from nothing.

fd3

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #198 on: May 30, 2018, 03:10:36 pm »
... Then Sky turn out two clean winning riders in succession, just like that.
You can’t compare wiggins with Froome or Hinault, etc.  wiggins won one tdf in a year where there was an exceptional amount of time trialing and the other TTer rode the Giro before hand.  It was at best a two hours race and the better TTer with the better support team won. 
[/I could be wrong]

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #199 on: May 30, 2018, 03:11:49 pm »
I hope TdF get sued plenty by banning Froome on hearsay.