Author Topic: Giro 2018  (Read 17198 times)

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #300 on: June 01, 2018, 08:44:22 pm »
I'll still watch it and most likely enjoy it, even if Froome rides and wins, just as I enjoyed the Giro.

 It's funny to mention Armstrong again, because it was the way Sky and their leaders rode from 2011 onwards that seemed remarkably reminiscent of USPS. People reacted at the time, howls of laughter in the media tent whilst watching the race apparently. They'd seen it all before.   

The ensuing relevations of TUE abuse, Tramadol, employment of doping doctors, jiffy bags, spurious excuses to account for unlikely performances, government investigations, testosterone patches, failed drug tests, lies, 'lost' medical records and so on came as no surprise.

It's strange they don't talk about marginal gains anymore. Apparently this accounted for their early successes, but surely with movement of teams staff and riders to other teams these gains have been adopted by all.

Last Friday they claimed it was 'nutrition strategy'.

Failed drugs test?  Who are you referring to?

Last Friday: what they probably wanted to say was "Thanks Tom" but that would have seemed a bit rude!  After all, he did completely mess his tactics up and it would have been a really interesting Saturday if he had not waited for someone who descended "like an old lady" and realised sooner that others were not going to work with him when it was only him who had something to gain.  As it was, Saturday was something of an anti-climax.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #301 on: June 01, 2018, 08:52:38 pm »
As the thread rumbles on I was considering why the vilification of Sky and Froome continues.  Perhaps Sky, because of their money and resources, have become the cycling equivalent of Chelski and more recently Man City.  Or perhaps the equivalent of Mercedes in F1, although having Hamilton drive for Mercedes does help reduce the negative comments.  Sky have far more resources compared to other teams as witnessed by their vehicle support and the ‘Death Star’ revealed last year, along with complaints from other teams they take too much space on the car parks.  A recent article by one rider said whereas on other teams the laundry would be taken care of by someone as an additional duty, at Sky they have someone dedicated to laundry, such are the resources available.  The style of riding is also criticised as they have the resources to recruit a good squad with plenty of firepower.  They get on the front, set an almighty pace and control the race, after which they blow-up and leave it to their leader.  That is not liked by other teams or some fans.  They were criticised for the clothing they wore during TTs last year at the TdF as it was said to give an unfair advantage, even though the clothing was approved and had been worn previously at the Giro.  This goes on and on.  People will hark back to Wiggins, unethical behaviour, credibility etc.  Even though the DCMS stated they had broken no rules.  Meanwhile, Dan Martin uses an inhaler, Simon Yates has also received medication to treat asthma and no barbs at them. Both their teams are not members of MPCC and according to the MPCC website only 38% of World Tour Teams are members in 2018.  Perhaps it is because they are not winning and are seen to embody a Corinthian spirit rather than the organised and extremely well resourced Sky.  Eventually, it all rests with the rider and Froome pulled an amazing performance out of the bag to win the Giro and probably surprised himself, while others imploded or got the tactics wrong.  Nobody appears to be seriously questioning whether his performance was clean in that race.  Questions arise as to whether he should have been there, which is a different debate, and one that is likely to continue for some time.  It will be interesting to see how history will judge Team Sky.

Samuel D

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #302 on: June 01, 2018, 09:39:39 pm »
As the thread rumbles on I was considering why the vilification of Sky and Froome continues.  Perhaps Sky, because of their money and resources, have become the cycling equivalent of Chelski and more recently Man City.

There’s undoubtedly an element of that.

The Velonews podcast made some interesting points on the hatred of Froome specifically from about the 30 minute mark. (Don’t be put off listening to this by the mischaracterisation of its content earlier.)

Another factor is that Froome had the misfortune of becoming the first dominant champion after Armstrong, and into the bargain he spoke English (albeit also French and Italian at a level rarely seen in Anglos). The media that Armstrong had taken for a ride were burnt and wary and raring to have another go. Froome stood in for the departed Armstrong and the media barely noticed the swap.

Sky’s success annoys some people as success does in all domains, but the wild accusations in the press – as opposed to the pub in the past – are enabled by the new media environment. Gone is informed and nuanced journalism; in is manufactured scandal and shouty self-promotion of the Ross Tucker variant. People fall for this or at least click on it. That’s all that counts for ads. Look at the decline of Cyclingnews from a respectable information site to clickbait and tabloid dog-whistling. This sad transformation has happened across the board, not just in cycling or sport. It’s why the press is in crisis, and on a broader scale, it’s why democracy is in crisis.

If Sky turns out to be doping, all the innuendo-shovellers will say I told you so. If not, they’ll maintain Froome fell in the cauldron in 2011. In the post-truth era, no conspiracy theory is too embarrassing to share.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #303 on: June 01, 2018, 10:42:36 pm »
Even though the DCMS stated they had broken no rules. 
The DCMS gave a rather confused message. They said that they had broken no rules, then they said that the TUEs Wiggins used were probably not justified on medical grounds and that they thought the jiffy bag contained kenacort. Both of which accusations would constitute breaking the rules.
Quote
It will be interesting to see how history will judge Team Sky.
On that, I think everyone will agree. ;)

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #304 on: June 01, 2018, 11:01:37 pm »
Even though the DCMS stated they had broken no rules. 
The DCMS gave a rather confused message. They said that they had broken no rules, then they said that the TUEs Wiggins used were probably not justified on medical grounds and that they thought the jiffy bag contained kenacort. Both of which accusations would constitute breaking the rules.

And that is why the questions about ethical behaviour was raised and why Sky continue to be viewed as a blight on cycling by some.  However, DCMS noted that WADA had confirmed that Sky had not broken any rules.  What DCMS thought is their opinion and opinion, from anyone, does not always constitute fact.  It was suggested it was deliberately confusing as they were frustrated at not being able to provide the evidence they sought.  But all this is about matters that occurred some time back and does not seem to be relevant to the performance of Sky or Froome in Giro 2018 which this thread is about.

I look forward to the Dauphine with Thomas and Kwiatkowski and wonder what comments will be aimed at them if they start riding well.  I also note their latest recruitment, Egan Bernal, has won the Tour of California and no comments appear to have been made about that.  Everything appears to be directed at Froome.

Samuel D makes some very good comments above.

Jaded

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  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #305 on: June 01, 2018, 11:31:14 pm »
As the thread rumbles on I was considering why the vilification of Sky and Froome continues.  Perhaps Sky, because of their money and resources, have become the cycling equivalent of Chelski and more recently Man City.  Or perhaps the equivalent of Mercedes in F1, although having Hamilton drive for Mercedes does help reduce the negative comments.  Sky have far more resources compared to other teams as witnessed by their vehicle support and the ‘Death Star’ revealed last year, along with complaints from other teams they take too much space on the car parks.  A recent article by one rider said whereas on other teams the laundry would be taken care of by someone as an additional duty, at Sky they have someone dedicated to laundry, such are the resources available.  The style of riding is also criticised as they have the resources to recruit a good squad with plenty of firepower.  They get on the front, set an almighty pace and control the race, after which they blow-up and leave it to their leader.  That is not liked by other teams or some fans.  They were criticised for the clothing they wore during TTs last year at the TdF as it was said to give an unfair advantage, even though the clothing was approved and had been worn previously at the Giro.  This goes on and on.  People will hark back to Wiggins, unethical behaviour, credibility etc.  Even though the DCMS stated they had broken no rules.  Meanwhile, Dan Martin uses an inhaler, Simon Yates has also received medication to treat asthma and no barbs at them. Both their teams are not members of MPCC and according to the MPCC website only 38% of World Tour Teams are members in 2018.  Perhaps it is because they are not winning and are seen to embody a Corinthian spirit rather than the organised and extremely well resourced Sky.  Eventually, it all rests with the rider and Froome pulled an amazing performance out of the bag to win the Giro and probably surprised himself, while others imploded or got the tactics wrong.  Nobody appears to be seriously questioning whether his performance was clean in that race.  Questions arise as to whether he should have been there, which is a different debate, and one that is likely to continue for some time.  It will be interesting to see how history will judge Team Sky.

I saw this post and failed to read it.

I’m sorry.

Are there any drugs that I could have taken to help me read it?
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #306 on: June 02, 2018, 07:29:25 am »
Looks like Veloman has lost control of his sockpuppet. It's got a mind of its own and is posting all by itself :o


Karla

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Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #307 on: June 02, 2018, 08:58:47 am »
Admittedly, since I've been camping my socks have started to take on a life of their own.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #308 on: June 02, 2018, 02:13:05 pm »
https://m.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cycling/ewan-mackenna-so-how-is-it-then-that-you-explain-a-freak-like-chris-froome-36968940.html#click=https://t.co/M5OXVoIStG

There's a detail in here I'd forgotten that makes it all the more ridiculous.

In 2011, Team Sky had such massive faith in the innate talent of Chris Froome that he hadn't even been selected to be part of the Team Sky line-up for the Vuelta. He was a last minute substitute because another rider was ill.

3 weeks before the start of the Vuelta Chris Froome had given us all a hint of the amazing talent  that was to earn him a 2nd place podium (just 13 seconds behind the winner, the smallest margin in history)...

...by coming 94th in the Tour of Poland.

 :facepalm:

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #309 on: June 03, 2018, 08:21:33 am »
I look forward to the Dauphine with Thomas and Kwiatkowski and wonder what comments will be aimed at them if they start riding well.  I also note their latest recruitment, Egan Bernal, has won the Tour of California and no comments appear to have been made about that.  Everything appears to be directed at Froome.
Kwiatkowski was world champion when joining Sky and has been consistently one of the best 1 day riders in the world. At the Tour Sky will probably use him as a domestique again - I don't know if he has ambitions to lead a team for GC, but it's unlikely at Sky. G is cut from the same cloth as Wiggins (palmares from youth up as a big power trackie/roadie, lost a lot of weight but still not a natural climber), and IMO should have aimed at the classics - I don't think he can cut it in the high mountains.
Egan Bernal is 21. The only thing I know about him is that he's Columbian. Latin American racing has had an embarrassing number of in competition positives in recent years, but that's generally been confined to the domestic scene, so hopefully their international level riders are as clean as everyone else.
None of that has a bearing in this Giro. Froome won it, so his past seems in context to me.

Karla

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Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #310 on: June 03, 2018, 04:11:54 pm »
Thomas?  The drugs only help him until he crashes.

Oh wait, the Dauphine is less than a day old and he's crashed already?  Get 'em in early I suppose.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #311 on: June 03, 2018, 07:23:57 pm »
Thomas?  The drugs only help him until he crashes.

Oh wait, the Dauphine is less than a day old and he's crashed already?  Get 'em in early I suppose.

But he's only a pursuiter, not a madison acrobat like Cav (and, errr Brad) so we really can't expect the same bike handling skills, even when he isn't being barged out of the descents by Warren B. (Come to think of it Cav is a bit accident prone as well, as was a certain Mr Froome when he came out of Africa, if the stories of his early days by teammates are to be believed - wait, wasn't the descending speed in the Giro credited to bike-handling skills learnt on Kenyan dirt roads? Something not quite right there!)

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #312 on: June 03, 2018, 07:33:35 pm »
I knew Froome was just about to start a run of 6 GT wins and 4 GT podiums when he came 94th in The Tour of Poland.

From 94th in a minor race to 2nd in a GT in only three weeks shows what class he has.

Who else has ever pulled off such an achievement?

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #313 on: June 03, 2018, 07:54:37 pm »
I knew Froome was just about to start a run of 6 GT wins and 4 GT podiums when he came 94th in The Tour of Poland.

From 94th in a minor race to 2nd in a GT in only three weeks shows what class he has.

Who else has ever pulled off such an achievement?

Just spit it out, Flatus - you think Froome is doping, don't you   ;D

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #314 on: June 03, 2018, 08:12:58 pm »
Who was the team leader in that tour of Poland?
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #315 on: June 03, 2018, 08:33:49 pm »
But he's only a pursuiter, not a madison acrobat like Cav (and, errr Brad) so we really can't expect the same bike handling skills, even when he isn't being barged out of the descents by Warren B. (Come to think of it Cav is a bit accident prone as well, as was a certain Mr Froome when he came out of Africa, if the stories of his early days by teammates are to be believed - wait, wasn't the descending speed in the Giro credited to bike-handling skills learnt on Kenyan dirt roads? Something not quite right there!)
He's won junior Roubaix, as well as E3.
However, the people in the peleton regarded as the best bike handlers tend to have been top level off-road cyclists (cross or MTB) - I'm not sure madison is the gold standard...

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #316 on: June 04, 2018, 11:33:05 am »
As the thread rumbles on .........

I saw this post and failed to read it.

I’m sorry.

Are there any drugs that I could have taken to help me read it?

Ask Flatus as he seems to be the expert when it comes to drugs.

Or perhaps not as he has yet to provide more information on failed drug tests.  Oh well.

The ensuing relevations of TUE abuse, Tramadol, employment of doping doctors, jiffy bags, spurious excuses to account for unlikely performances, government investigations, testosterone patches, failed drug tests, lies, 'lost' medical records and so on came as no surprise.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #317 on: June 04, 2018, 11:38:35 am »
https://m.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cycling/ewan-mackenna-so-how-is-it-then-that-you-explain-a-freak-like-chris-froome-36968940.html#click=https://t.co/M5OXVoIStG

Very shabby journalism.  Simple explanation to explain a freak life Froome is radiation.  Obvious really and plenty of evidence to support the hypothesis.  Surprised he spent so much time going on about motors in cycles; or might that explain the performance of Yates and Pinot.  Perhaps Sky hacked into the remote control system and disabled the motor.  The motor theory might explain why Froome pedals so fast as he is clearly not in control of the pedalling and it must be remote controlled.  Being 'clipped-in' he has no choice but to go with it.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #318 on: June 04, 2018, 11:41:17 am »
...by coming 94th in the Tour of Poland.

 :facepalm:

Perhaps Flatus should consider becoming a teacher of history as he seems fascinated with the past.  I'm sure his pupils would love to hear about the Battle of Hastings in 1075.  Quite a result apparently and one in the eye for someone.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #319 on: June 04, 2018, 11:49:24 am »
How tall is Pozzovivo? I mean, I know tall guys have an advantage in the TT because of (something physics-y related to leg length) but Quintana or Yates don't look like they borrowed thier big brother's TT bike to have a go on like Pozzovivo does.  If he's actually going to be a serious GT contender then surely his team can put a bit more effort into sorting his set up?

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #320 on: June 04, 2018, 12:05:03 pm »
Pity his team did not ride Tour of Yorkshire as he could have popped in for a bike fit.

https://www.planetx.co.uk/pro-bike-fit

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #321 on: June 04, 2018, 12:09:11 pm »
How tall is Pozzovivo?

164cm tall and weighs 57kg

teambahrainmerida.com/domenico-pozzovivo/

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #322 on: June 04, 2018, 12:28:21 pm »
Can someone please explain to me the difference between a ‘failed drugs test’ and an ‘adverse analytical finding’? There seems to be an awful lot of specious bullshit claiming that the latter is not an example of the former and I’d really like to know what semantic contortions you need to go through to convince yourself of that.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #323 on: June 04, 2018, 12:38:00 pm »
A failed drugs test, or positive test, is normally used to refer to finding something that is banned.  Examples are the minute traces of a banned substance (drug) with Contador or the rather more well known cases of EPO with Armstrong.

Adverse analytical finding (AAF) is when a substance that is permitted exceeds the permitted amount.  In the case of Froome the AAF refers to a level of salbutamol in excess of the permitted amount.  No argument as to whether Froome is allowed the product, just a debate and legal argument about he level.

The comments by Hinault highlighted the general looseness in terminology and talk with the rebuttal from Sky on his comments:

A Team Sky Spokesperson said: ‘It is disappointing that Bernard is so outspoken given he has his facts wrong. Chris has not had a positive test, rather an adverse analytical finding for a prescribed asthma medication. As an ex-rider himself, Bernard will appreciate the need for fairness for each and every athlete.

“And at the current time, Chris is entitled to race. This process would normally be confidential to protect the athlete and establish the facts. Unfortunately, it was leaked.

“However, both Chris and the team are following the process that has been put in place by the UCI.”

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #324 on: June 04, 2018, 01:19:56 pm »
...by coming 94th in the Tour of Poland.

 :facepalm:

Perhaps Flatus should consider becoming a teacher of history as he seems fascinated with the past.  I'm sure his pupils would love to hear about the Battle of Hastings in 1075.  Quite a result apparently and one in the eye for someone.

I do hope you're not a history teacher!