Author Topic: Audaxing on an e-bike  (Read 1426 times)

Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2018, 01:38:36 pm »
If we're currently witnessing the beginning of the end of the internal combustion engine, thus seeing the rise of electric motorbikes where then will the line between e-bike and motorbike be drawn ?
What would the reaction have been if you'd turned up to a brevet on one of these ?....actually, if e-bikes are now allowed could i dig one of these out of a museum and ride it now ?? :facepalm:

E-bikes are pedal assist so you do have to pedal, e-motorbikes and mopeds you don't. On an e-assist it is reckoned you do about 80% of the effort so it really isn't the same as a moped, where pedalling is optional.
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frankly frankie

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Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2018, 01:40:58 pm »
Give it a few years and e bikes will be virtually identical to ordinary bikes and batteries able to cover way longer distances than the present technology.

That's a sad dystopian future where no-one can tell the difference between a lightweight road bike and an e-bike.  Furtunately battery technology moves on much slower than most of us wish it would, and lightweight discreet power packs with kWh capacities are just a pipe-dream.
"This is a complex subject, with a need for more than one highlighter pen."

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2018, 01:48:13 pm »
E-bikes are pedal assist so you do have to pedal

On a Pedalec the pedals have to turn for the motor to operate.  You don't legally have to contribute useful power, just have the option of doing so.  (Eg. with a hub motor system, you could soft-pedal so the freewheel doesn't engage, but the crank rotation sensor still sees you turning the pedals, and let the motor do all the work.  Barakta's been known to do this when her hip plays up.)

With a grandfathered EAPC you don't even have to do that.  But vintage (ie. pre April 2015) electric bikes are, almost by definition, going to be a bit rubbish.


Quote
On an e-assist it is reckoned you do about 80% of the effort so it really isn't the same as a moped, where pedalling is optional.

Depends on how you use it.  In practice most e-bike users do contribute useful power, particularly on the flat, and the better-quality systems favoured by cyclists-who-need-a-power-boost (rather than the cheaper systems that people-who-want-something-with-wheels-that's-faster-than-walking tend to use) use torque-sensing to control the motor, so it's hard to avoid doing your share.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2018, 01:52:58 pm »
Give it a few years and e bikes will be virtually identical to ordinary bikes and batteries able to cover way longer distances than the present technology.

That's a sad dystopian future where no-one can tell the difference between a lightweight road bike and an e-bike. 

As someone who may one day become elderly or (more seriously) disabled, I look forward to this sad dystopian future.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

BeMoreMike

  • Tries often, fails frequently.
Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2018, 02:01:12 pm »
I was being somewhat facetious in my previous post about vintage bikes with petrol engines. ::-)

I think current rules are adequate, but as technology moves on and the popularity of these bikes grows (hopefully very slowly imo) then they will probably need revisiting.

The only problem I can see now is if entry to an event was over subscribed and closed early, then on the day a proportion of the riders were on e-bikes...so starting with no chance of validation and potentially denying other riders who intended to ECE the event and use it to score points.

Manotea

  • Just 1 sob, Vassily
Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2018, 02:02:10 pm »
Because the Board allowed validation for BPs originally. More than half of those who subsequently voted on the subject thought that equating motor-assisted rides with human-powered rides in brevets was not appropriate.

FTR...  the Board did not 'allow' anything... the Board raised a proposal that was subsequently voted on and approved by AUK members, in exactly the same way LWaB did.

frankly frankie

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Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2018, 02:15:23 pm »
I think current rules are adequate, but as technology moves on and the popularity of these bikes grows (hopefully very slowly imo) then they will probably need revisiting.

In any kind of group-riding context (which most audaxes are, in part, and if you choose it), e-bikes are disturbingly different to be around.  A cyclist has to stay well clear, in the same way as around a tandem trike.
"This is a complex subject, with a need for more than one highlighter pen."

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2018, 02:29:19 pm »
The Board's proposal should never have included (= allowed) validation, as the subsequent revision showed.
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Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2018, 02:33:06 pm »
I think current rules are adequate, but as technology moves on and the popularity of these bikes grows (hopefully very slowly imo) then they will probably need revisiting.

In any kind of group-riding context (which most audaxes are, in part, and if you choose it), e-bikes are disturbingly different to be around.  A cyclist has to stay well clear, in the same way as around a tandem trike.

Unless anyone's planning on banning tandems or recumbents - or indeed riders with vastly different levels of fitness - then I don't see that being a problem.  It's just something riders have to be aware of when forming a group.  They'll soon learn to put the e-bike at the front to make a hole in the headwind[1], just as they learn to put the trike at the back to act as car-repellent, or not to get in the way of a tandem or 'bent rider trying to carry momentum through a dip.

(Personally, I'm unsure how anyone is able to develop sufficient group-riding skills for this to matter *without* becoming acutely aware that some other cyclists have very different dynamics to their own, but I suppose there must be some people who've only ever ridden in a peloton of similar ability club cyclists.)


[1] This is, obviously, cheating.  Just like riding in a group is cheating.  Or using a recumbent is cheating.  Or being male is cheating. Or...
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2018, 03:16:58 pm »

On a Pedalec the pedals have to turn for the motor to operate.  You don't legally have to contribute useful power, just have the option of doing so.  (Eg. with a hub motor system, you could soft-pedal so the freewheel doesn't engage, but the crank rotation sensor still sees you turning the pedals, and let the motor do all the work.  Barakta's been known to do this when her hip plays up.)

With a grandfathered EAPC you don't even have to do that.  But vintage (ie. pre April 2015) electric bikes are, almost by definition, going to be a bit rubbish.


But how well regulated is this? I see e-bikes being ridden around London all the time with no sign of pedalling - is it like bike lighting where the majority of lights sold seemingly don't conform to the standard?
“That slope may look insignificant, but it's going to be my destiny" - Fitzcarraldo

mattc

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Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2018, 03:29:14 pm »
Considering that Moped is a portmanteau of motor/pedal and if you go back to the pre war years small petrol engines that you retro fitted to bicycles were very popular

What would the reaction have been if you'd turned up to a brevet on one of these ?

"Oh look - they've supplied a Derny for us!"
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2018, 03:59:51 pm »

On a Pedalec the pedals have to turn for the motor to operate.  You don't legally have to contribute useful power, just have the option of doing so.  (Eg. with a hub motor system, you could soft-pedal so the freewheel doesn't engage, but the crank rotation sensor still sees you turning the pedals, and let the motor do all the work.  Barakta's been known to do this when her hip plays up.)

With a grandfathered EAPC you don't even have to do that.  But vintage (ie. pre April 2015) electric bikes are, almost by definition, going to be a bit rubbish.

But how well regulated is this? I see e-bikes being ridden around London all the time with no sign of pedalling - is it like bike lighting where the majority of lights sold seemingly don't conform to the standard?

About as well regulated as anything else on the roads.  If you're in a collision and an insurance company start sniffing around, or the police decide you've failed the attitude test, you're likely to be in trouble.  Otherwise, like lights, nobody cares beyond variations on the usual 'bloodycyclists' stuff.

What it mostly means is that European manufacturers and retailers concentrate on road-legal e-bikes, with a few unregulated high-performance ones "for off-road use" (which do tend to be actual mountain bikes).

But there's nothing stopping you buying kit from outside the EU that doesn't conform and converting your BSO to zip around at 30mph on a thumb-throttle alone.  If you're lucky enough not to to be in a significant collision (as most cyclists usually are) and don't take the piss, you'll almost certainly get away with it.  I wouldn't recommend entering an audax on one, thobut.

I kind of hope the shoddy conversions are a gateway to good quality e-bikes for the people using them as a form of transport, but I don't see them going away entirely until you can buy an e-BSO (or used e-bike) for about the same as a cheap Chinese conversion kit.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2018, 04:04:53 pm »
I wouldn't recommend entering an audax on one, thobut.
Try to keep up with the sharp end and you'll burn out the motor or drain the battery in 30 minutes. Slide down to the full-value end and they'll burn out your heart and drain your soul with merciless ribbing.
The earth is vast and beautiful and contains many miraculous places. (Chekhov)

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2018, 04:06:29 pm »
I wouldn't recommend entering an audax on one, thobut.
Try to keep up with the sharp end and you'll burn out the motor or drain the battery in 30 minutes.

I've made that mistake on audaxes before, and I didn't even bring electric assist.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Manotea

  • Just 1 sob, Vassily
Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2018, 04:59:39 pm »
The Board's proposal should never have included (= allowed) validation, as the subsequent revision showed.

The thinking at the time of the original resolution was for a greater distinction between Brevet Populaire ("for everybody"), including those who through age or injury could no longer complete such rides unassisted (and it was enquiries from such riders that prompted the proposal in the first place) and Brevet Randonneur (Mondiale) Brevets, for 'Randonneurs'.  Part of this was to allow that riders participation should be recognised and recorded, because if the riders Brevet is not validated then as far as AUK records are concerned, "they were not there". (ref: discussions regarding recording DNF and OOT).

I do agree that whilst the proposal rationale clearly stated that that it applied to BP events that was not clear in the wording of the regulation.

This might have been resolved at the time with greater engagement from others, or indeed an amendment along the lines of LWaB's subsequent proposal; this would have given members a better opportunity to express their views.

All we can say for sure is that the membership "agreed with the previous speaker".

PS: I'm not arguing for or agin here, just providing some context...

PPS: as for fiding riding with EAPCs disconcerting, riding fixed amongst gearies is just as bad. I have to watch gearies who insist on freewheeling and slowing periodically like a hawk, and I've had gearies bounce off my back wheel because I keep pedaling whilst slowing down...

Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2018, 08:01:43 pm »
Give it a few years and e bikes will be virtually identical to ordinary bikes and batteries able to cover way longer distances than the present technology.

That's a sad dystopian future where no-one can tell the difference between a lightweight road bike and an e-bike.  Furtunately battery technology moves on much slower than most of us wish it would, and lightweight discreet power packs with kWh capacities are just a pipe-dream.

 I cant see anything sad about a world where people are moved around by machines with tiny batteries and motors. Got to be an improvement on gas guzzling petrol and diesel engines poisoning us all .

Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2018, 02:18:49 pm »
HK and I have been seeing tourers and loaded tourers using e-bikes in France for a couple of years. Some of the Swiss fast e-bikes are very impressive machines. Most of those we've chatted with seem to carry two batteries plus charger.

They are great for people with impaired health to use for touring.  I had several really enjoyable tours with my first wife with her using electric assist when her health was deteriorating.  Using two batteries, we were able to do 50-80km days in flat or rolling terrain comfortably, wheras without the motor she would have struggled to ride a tenth of that distance.  It really is staggering what a difference it makes.

When it is my turn for my health to fade and mobility to deteriorate, I'll be getting one! 

As others mention, they are not really suitable for audax-type rides as the distances are a bit too long - unless you carry 3 or 4 batteries, which few people do.  They are fun in rolling countryside though: basically you can go up shorter hills very quickly so maintain a high average speed.

Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
« Reply #42 on: July 13, 2018, 03:40:48 pm »
About 90% of bikes we have seen (and there are a lot) out here in Dolomites are e-bikes. They are certainly not putting in 80% of the effort of a normal cyclist uphill. 

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2018, 05:33:09 pm »


So here's a thought. E-bikes allowed by not validated, the "sure, join your friends for the ride, but we're not giving you a medal". Makes sense. Then comes the group of riders get together, 1 rides an E-bike, the other 4 sit in behind them as a chain gang, doing a steady 25kph for the 8 hours + stops of the 200. 4 Get the medal, 5th gets beer as thanks.

2 Weeks later, one of the 4 rides the pedal assist, so that the original rider can get the medal...

Where is the line drawn?

J
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http://b.42q.eu/

mattc

  • "Hannibal"
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Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2018, 05:41:38 pm »
Where is the line drawn?

J
Probably where the AUK members' consensus chooses it to be drawn. That won't be the "right" answer - but it will hopefully be a pragmatic answer, acceptable to most members. And it will probably evolve over time.

Where do YOU think it should be drawn? And tell us why your answer is the right one! :)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
« Reply #45 on: July 13, 2018, 05:48:43 pm »
Then comes the group of riders get together, 1 rides an E-bike, the other 4 sit in behind them as a chain gang, doing a steady 25kph for the 8 hours + stops of the 200. 4 Get the medal, 5th gets beer as thanks.
J
Have you read the knowledgeable posts above which explain why the power required means that a steady 25kph for 8 hours cannot be achieved because the battery will run out well before that?

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
« Reply #46 on: July 13, 2018, 05:56:33 pm »
Have you read the knowledgeable posts above which explain why the power required means that a steady 25kph for 8 hours cannot be achieved because the battery will run out well before that?

Yes, have you read from people talking about carrying extra batteries?

If you'll let me suck your wheel for several hours, I may even offer to carry a spare battery for you!

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
« Reply #47 on: July 13, 2018, 05:58:06 pm »
I can only see this as a problem when qualifying for PBP.

But if you get an early start at PBP, you'll have a steady supply of pacers passing you throughout the ride, assuming you plan right, and don't take some of the idiotic advice on this board.

Re: Audaxing on an e-bike
« Reply #48 on: July 13, 2018, 09:42:49 pm »
But how well regulated is this? I see e-bikes being ridden around London all the time with no sign of pedalling - is it like bike lighting where the majority of lights sold seemingly don't conform to the standard?

From what I've read[1], but not confirmed for myself, there are at least some e-bikes where the speed sensor is basically the magnet+sensor combination from a cycle computer.  So moving the magnet and sensor out of alignment means that the brains of the system never knows what speed you're doing and therefore will maintain full power.

[1] It was on a YouTube video about e-bikes, where there where the usual suspects bemoaning the 15mph limit.