Author Topic: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?  (Read 6669 times)

Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« on: September 14, 2018, 12:06:32 pm »

Edit - Map Link is now https://long-distance.rocks/auk/map/perms/

Hi,

Over on FB we have got started on trying to crowdsource efforts to work out and document and map all the correct starts and controls of the Audax UK Perms out there. I have created a Google Docs Spreadsheet for working on the information. Are you interested in helping? Anyone can update the spreadsheet.

Here is a work in progress map that shows where we are going with the data.  It draws a dynamic outline of the route (when you hove over a perm start marker) given known control locations.   First we gather the town / village names and then they need to be geocoded into latitude and longitude for consumption by the mapping app I'm putting together.  Mostly the code is ready but we need to sort out the perm data.




https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Z1c5nUgnwHjr2a7Xt6Wm9DvcRX5D7hHorBTDmJa_27s/edit?usp=sharing

halhorner

  • Cycling Weakly
Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2018, 12:33:21 pm »
Cool idea. Have just added a couple. Where will you put the finished product?

FifeingEejit

  • Small, Far Away
Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2018, 12:35:43 pm »
Will shift the data I've collated over when I get home tonight and have everything ready for the BoF tomorrow,
I've been working alphabetically on organizer surname name (the website list), I think i got through to the end of Sarah Britton's Perms.

But for George Berwick's ones I only have a control list for the Twilight 600 as Fearnor posted them on here recently.

Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2018, 12:47:24 pm »
Useful resource, but...

 I think "paper" permanents (as such) are a dying breed.
The sheer hassle involved in applying for a perm card and collecting multiple receipts is going to be dwarved (and already is) by the DIY option.

In fact, I'd rather ride an existing perm as a DIY GPS... I don't need to stop 9 times along the way to buy as many Mars bars... it's really a no brainer.

From the organiser point of view, I'd rather just pass on a route I enjoy on a public database for DIY and save myself the joy of spending an afternoon writing cryptic instructions just to see it bouncing against a wall of rubber

hulver

  • I am a mole and I live in a hole.
Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2018, 12:58:23 pm »
Useful resource, but...

 I think "paper" permanents (as such) are a dying breed.
The sheer hassle involved in applying for a perm card and collecting multiple receipts is going to be dwarved (and already is) by the DIY option.

In fact, I'd rather ride an existing perm as a DIY GPS... I don't need to stop 9 times along the way to buy as many Mars bars... it's really a no brainer.

From the organiser point of view, I'd rather just pass on a route I enjoy on a public database for DIY and save myself the joy of spending an afternoon writing cryptic instructions just to see it bouncing against a wall of rubber

A lot of those Perms have got fantastic, tested routes though.

I see this as a step towards putting all the routes for them online, which would be a great resource. If it's turned into somewhere that anybody can share their DIY routes as well, so much the better.

FifeingEejit

  • Small, Far Away
Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2018, 01:05:22 pm »
I wouldn't be surprised if the map turns into that sort of resource for many.

I've a few routes that I don't mind sharing, but them being shared through the official channel of a club when there's been no proper risk assessment etc. may be the source of liability/responsibility issues that disclaimers don't get you out of.

Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2018, 01:06:57 pm »
Useful resource, but...

 I think "paper" permanents (as such) are a dying breed.
The sheer hassle involved in applying for a perm card and collecting multiple receipts is going to be dwarved (and already is) by the DIY option.

In fact, I'd rather ride an existing perm as a DIY GPS... I don't need to stop 9 times along the way to buy as many Mars bars... it's really a no brainer.

From the organiser point of view, I'd rather just pass on a route I enjoy on a public database for DIY and save myself the joy of spending an afternoon writing cryptic instructions just to see it bouncing against a wall of rubber

A lot of those Perms have got fantastic, tested routes though.

I see this as a step towards putting all the routes for them online, which would be a great resource. If it's turned into somewhere that anybody can share their DIY routes as well, so much the better.

I am not saying they are bad routes... but, follow my logic

I bought a brevet card for a perm, because I cannot do the calendar version of the same event.
The calendar version has 3 controls and 4 infos, the Perm has 7 controls. If you add start and finish, it means I need to produce 9 proofs of passage over 200 km!!

What I will do instead, is to do the route as a DIY and ditch the card. With GPS validation I won't need any receipt and I can even tweak the route if I want to... what's not to like?

Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2018, 01:07:26 pm »
I think they are only dying out as it is hard to find out where they go, let alone visualise that.  If we can gather enough info and get it visualised as above then I think it will reawaken many of them.

As to where it will go online I can bung it up under my Hertfordshire audax domain at the moment.    Initially it will be static website map (note that does not mean the map is not dynamic) based on what perm data we have gathered / gather.  Then I will see about providing a facility to update the perm details directly on the mapping.

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2018, 01:12:16 pm »
I think "paper" permanents (as such) are a dying breed.

Well, bully for you. This thread is for people who are interested in a project that is designed to keep traditional perms alive. If that's of no interest to you, you are not obliged to take part.

FifeingEejit

  • Small, Far Away
Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2018, 01:16:14 pm »
I am not saying they are bad routes... but, follow my logic

I bought a brevet card for a perm, because I cannot do the calendar version of the same event.
The calendar version has 3 controls and 4 infos, the Perm has 7 controls. If you add start and finish, it means I need to produce 9 proofs of passage over 200 km!!

What I will do instead, is to do the route as a DIY and ditch the card. With GPS validation I won't need any receipt and I can even tweak the route if I want to... what's not to like?

Since the advice is for an Advisory route to have no more than 1 control per 50km before resorting to Mandatory route, does that indicate the shortest route between sensibly spaced controls is massively under distance or routing along roads you don't want to go near?

You are of course presenting a good example of where scraping the route off Strava/RWGPS is probably the better option than the traditional way.

Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2018, 01:23:03 pm »


Since the advice is for an Advisory route to have no more than 1 control per 50km before resorting to Mandatory route, does that indicate the shortest route between sensibly spaced controls is massively under distance or routing along roads you don't want to go near?

You are of course presenting a good example of where scraping the route off Strava/RWGPS is probably the better option than the traditional way.

Yes, the problem is that I didn't know when I bought the card... I assumed it would be the same as the calendar event, with 4 infos spaced between the controls, which I was OK with. Instead 4 extra controls 
Wasted 3 quid and 2 SAEs to find out :P

Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2018, 01:25:56 pm »
I think they are only dying out as it is hard to find out where they go, let alone visualise that.
They will die out because they have been superseeded by technology. They would continue to thrive if AUK gave perms and DIY a different status, but they are equal, hence perms will succumb

Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2018, 01:28:59 pm »
I think they are only dying out as it is hard to find out where they go, let alone visualise that.  If we can gather enough info and get it visualised as above then I think it will reawaken many of them.


Totally agree with this! I'd love to do some more perms but how do I decide on one?! I don't want to email 6 organisers to get more than the barebones which are on the website now.

Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2018, 01:32:33 pm »
Surely all you need to do is to google 200, 300, 400 or 600km rides on Strava, and bring up the routes of the well-known rides. You can then see what the best place to start that ride is. Possibly a railway station, a budget hotel, or a safe parking area.

You can then track your ride against somebody else's performance. Following the course of a calendar ride means that you can use online accounts as a guide.

You can work your way up to doing the same with PBP, at a time which suits you, and avoids all the problems of 6,000 others on the road.

Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2018, 01:39:17 pm »
Phil - I have done @Ian H's ones on the spreadsheet.
<aside/> Why do people have to be such moaners (YKWIM)?

Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2018, 01:44:47 pm »
Totally agree with this! I'd love to do some more perms but how do I decide on one?! I don't want to email 6 organisers to get more than the barebones which are on the website now.
If the route is not on RidewithGPS and you are on strava, just use the search function and you will find someone who has done said permanent/event. You can then gather all the information you need. If you are a premium member, you don't even need to map the route again, you can download it as GPX straightaway.
If you are not, just befriend the said person and ask him/her for a GPX.

If you prefer reading from a piece of paper, plot the GPX into RidewithGPS, download the instructions... they are not great, but they are workable... and anyway, buying a perm card can be a lottery too

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2018, 01:47:32 pm »
buying a perm card can be a lottery too

Which is precisely one of the problems this project intends to address... Can't you just give the negativity a rest for five minutes?

Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2018, 01:55:18 pm »
Great initiative.  Proper perms have been needing this for many years.

I'll have a look through when I can access Google Docs (work blocks file sharing sites) as I have done a fair few, including some relatively obscure ones.

Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2018, 01:57:33 pm »
Which is precisely one of the problems this project intends to address... Can't you just give the negativity a rest for five minutes?

Positivity:

Here's my idea (reinventing the wheel here): e-permanents. You get a GPX and routecard automatically when you pay. Validation by GPX. That would boost perms, because I would rather give my money to someone who has spent time putting together a good route, than giving the same money to AUK for a DIY validation of the same ride.
Everybody is a winner...  :thumbsup:

Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2018, 02:01:02 pm »
Has anyone every thought about starting a 'what I love about AUK' thread ?

This forum us full of whining negative bollocks.

Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2018, 02:41:06 pm »
Some perm organizeers already allow rides to do there traditional permanents by gps as suggested by whats his face.
Enter perm, receive gpx of the route,ride it and send your file of completed ride when done, hey look no paper, no card and no receipts! !!!! Been available on some perms for a year or two. So nothing new.


Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2018, 06:52:50 pm »
Site is now live though noticed a couple of events are in the wrong place. But did notice there is a genuine 1000 perm from Turkey that looks interesting. Out doing route check tomorrow so will post link Sunday after I have corrected the location of a couple of the events.

It us not reliant on a particular website technology. So hopefully can be ported back to the audax uk website once the £500,000 has been spent.

FifeingEejit

  • Small, Far Away
Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2018, 07:13:46 pm »
I've updated the google sheet with the controls i scraped off the website and what I knew for the twilight 600
In particular the CBnn code events seem to have the start location in the middle of the listed controls; but he does allow you to start anywhere on route

Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2018, 07:18:50 pm »
Great I will probably pick up again after the weekend and start merging control data into the mapping.  Just two events have their controls data in what is live at the moment. I do like the outline routes popping up when you having over them.  I can now see The Hudderfield Humber perm turns near me , so I might use that for one of my RRTY rides.

FifeingEejit

  • Small, Far Away
Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2018, 07:37:11 pm »
Was kind of disappointed to discover a CSV parting formula to get a list of all the unique (as typed) controls from the controls lists; so I've got that extracting sooner than expected; hopefully be able to figure out how to convert the control town name CSV list to a list of GPS Co-Ordinates by referencing another sheet soon too; that way all that should need to be done to keep it up to date is:
Add a new event row, type the control list, add any new controls to the GPS list and the spreadsheet will spit the GPS co-Ords list out into the next column...