Entering as a member, riding as a non member.

[j_a_m_e_s_]

I've entered some rides for next season.

If I choose not to renew my membership, will either myself or the organisers of said rides be penalised with extra fees at all?

Also, how does it work with perms? If I've purchased brevets as a member, will they still be validated as a non member?

Answers on a postcard please.

[pangolin]

I'm also curious how this would work on the BCM, which states on the entry page that you have to be a member to enter.

[Manotea]

Nominally the impact on Organisers is limited to a few pennies in Paypal charges, and it's seen as "free money" but there is a lot more to it than that...

I've asked for a breakdown of the marginal amounts the different increases are expected to achieve.*

I know FF is  keen on increasing temp membership fee as he sees it as 'free money', but there is a real cost to this approach.

Whilst its not the whole of the story, it's noticeable that in recent years some of the largest events in terms of numbers of riders have been lost from the AUK Calendar, and those events had  a high proportion of temp membership riders.

Increasing temp membership fees will only increase that trend. If an event entry fee is, say, £10 and organisers are expected to hand over 30% of that to AUK, they will take a long hard look at what they are getting for their money.

This is actually a double loss, not only is AUK losing revenue but also and potentially more significantly, a shop window, as large groups of riders who previously might not have ridden an Audax event before or only one or two will no longer do so. It's in the nature of things that those events were relatively easy for those riders to sign up for and take part in, an easy lead in to riding more audax events.

---
*FWIW I'm relaxed about increases to membership charges, but rather doubtful about increases to temp fees. Changes to other fees are as yet unknown. It would be helpful to understand how much the changes are expected to raise, their impact on AUKs cashflow projections, and the analysis/justification behind the approach taken.

Also, how does it work with perms? If I've purchased brevets as a member, will they still be validated as a non member?

Few perms are ridden by non-members as they are generally an adjunct to membership awards but there is an opportunity here, as they do represent an introductory path to membership, for example, when a non-member accompanies a member on a ride, which does happen. Suspect none of this has been considered for the new website.

So question is would the brevet be validated, how would it be recorded and how would the temp fees be managed (different pathways apply for regular and diy perms & for perms with brevet cards and those validated by gps.

[citoyen]

Nominally the impact on Organisers is limited to a few pennies in Paypal charges

I think the question is more: would AUK charge the organiser the temp entry fee for someone who signed up as a member (so didn't pay a temp entry fee) but then rode the event as a non-member? I'm assuming that yes, AUK would be obliged to charge the temp entry fee for insurance purposes.

If so, the cost would be £2 to the organiser (or £3 if the proposed increase goes ahead). It would then be up to the organiser to charge this back to the rider.

The next question is: would an organiser be notified of such a change in the rider's circumstances? Would the online start list online start list be updated to reflect the change of status? If so, the org would at least have the option of charging the temp entry fee prior to the event, or annulling the entry. And can AUK charge organisers the temp entry fee regardless of whether the rider has paid it?

As a corollary to this, something I was pondering recently: what's to stop a non-member ticking the CTC box on the entry form to get out of paying the temp fee? And what would be the implications of this in the event of an insurance claim? Unlikely to happen in the real world, I know, but are organisers legally responsible for checking that riders are actually members of the CTC/CUK when they sign up as such?

[Manotea]

The opening of my post was a reminder of other issues, but citoyen has it.

The bottom line is that the whole area of temp fees and CTC concessions is a minefield and they are best done away with. All they do is complicate, generate potentially large liabilities and drive away events and riders.

I haven't seen the sums - nobody has, and that is why I've asked for the relevant information - but leaving aside management and admin issues, ISTM that equivalent additional funds would be generated simply by bringing brevet card and validation fees in line across all events. Essentially that means raising calendar event fees to that of perms.  Hardly onerous.

This would also reduce costs for the new Website/IT project now and in the future, for the more complicated the charging structure is, the more it will cost to implement and maintain.

[Greenbank]

Exactly. Something along the lines of:-

Take the total income from Brevet Cards production fees, Validation fees, Temp Insurance Fees, BRM fees, etc for a year.

Divide that by the total number of entrants in a year.

Charge the organisers at least this much per entry (to build a surplus). Review frequently against the old fee structure to see if it is making/losing money.

Charge the entrants the same fee whether they are a member or not. Non-members don't need to pay extra for temp insurance. [ I take it AUK's insurance policy is just an annual sum based on expected usage rather than being paid for on an individual basis. ]

Some rides will go slightly up in price, some will be cheaper. Everyone should be happier with the reduced admin and overheads.

That what you were thinking Mr O'Tea?

[Cudzoziemiec]

Doesn't ticking the CTC box then ask you for your CTC number? I think it used to. Whether that was ever checked, I don't know but seems unlikely.

Wouldn't scrapping non-member fees have the effect of reducing the number of members?

[citoyen]

The bottom line is that the whole area of temp fees and CTC concessions is a minefield and they are best done away with.

Remove the insurance element from the membership fee and instead charge a flat rate for all riders per event, included in the entry fee?

Hmmm. Interesting thought.

Regarding paypal fees, as you say, it's pennies - to be more precise, it worked out at 6p per temp rider on my recent event. With 39 non-member paypal entries, that adds up to £2.34. Presumably the increase in AUK's temp membership to £3 would increase the fee on that portion of the entry fee to 9p, taking the total cost to me to a whopping £3.51. I don't think it's something I need to worry about unless the number of temp entrants increases massively on my events.

[citoyen]

Doesn't ticking the CTC box then ask you for your CTC number? I think it used to. Whether that was ever checked, I don't know but seems unlikely.

Indeed - whether it asks for a membership number or not, I honestly don't know. But even if it does, what does that prove? AUK members are easy to corroborate against the database, but I presume AUK doesn't have access to CTC/CUK's membership lists.

Wouldn't scrapping non-member fees have the effect of reducing the number of members?

It seems a bit of a paradox to me. Temp fees are set at a level that theoretically encourages riders to sign up to get better value if they're entering more than a few events a year. But a number of people just aren't interested in being members and the fees are still low enough that the savings are not enough of an incentive. As a result, temp fees have become a significant source of income for AUK, and now they're suggesting increasing temp fees to further exploit this source of income. But the danger is that this will have the effect of persuading more people to sign up as members, which sounds like it may not necessarily be a good thing for cashflow...

For those people who are interested in being members, there are other incentives such as eligibility for awards and a shiny awoowoo popping through your letterbox four times a year.

Now that I'm thinking about this, I'm coming round to the idea that a flat-rate AUK admin fee to cover everything (insurance, brevet cards, validation etc) would be a good thing.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Doesn't ticking the CTC box then ask you for your CTC number? I think it used to. Whether that was ever checked, I don't know but seems unlikely.

Indeed - whether it asks for a membership number or not, I honestly don't know. But even if it does, what does that prove? AUK members are easy to corroborate against the database, but I presume AUK doesn't have access to CTC/CUK's membership lists.

I presume it would only ever be checked in the event of an insurance claim involving that rider. The chances of someone fraudulently claiming CTC membership must be minuscule but the consequences could be nasty. I suppose someone might mistakenly think they were a member – either not realising their membership had lapsed, or not realising the difference between a "member group" and an "affiliated group" (and I'm not sure I've even got those terms correct).

Wouldn't scrapping non-member fees have the effect of reducing the number of members?

It seems a bit of a paradox to me. Temp fees are set at a level that theoretically encourages riders to sign up to get better value if they're entering more than a few events a year. But a number of people just aren't interested in being members and the fees are still low enough that the savings are not enough of an incentive. As a result, temp fees have become a significant source of income for AUK, and now they're suggesting increasing temp fees to further exploit this source of income. But the danger is that this will have the effect of persuading more people to sign up as members, which sounds like it may not necessarily be a good thing for cashflow...

For those people who are interested in being members, there are other incentives such as eligibility for awards and a shiny awoowoo popping through your letterbox four times a year.

Now that I'm thinking about this, I'm coming round to the idea that a flat-rate AUK admin fee to cover everything (insurance, brevet cards, validation etc) would be a good thing.

If both temporary fees and membership go up roughly in line with each other, the financial incentive to join remains the same. Obvs. Btu I get the impression most members join up because they feel themselves to be audaxy people rather than to save £2 or even £3 a ride. Whether giving them a financial incentive to join, by making the temp fees much more relative to the event entry, would turn them into audaxy people, is a moot point... Probably more likely to have the reverse effect by dissuading people from ever trying it out.

[Greenbank]

Attempting to drive membership by raising non-member fees (and consequently risking lowering membership by reducing non-member fees) is just the wrong way of doing things IMO.

The club needs to give them a compelling reason to join, not just saving a few pounds here or there. As others have said, most of the people who join are just Audaxy type people.

[Thread crossover with shiny new website discussions] For the newer generation(s) there needs to be better visualisation of their results, something along the lines of progress bars towards each of the awards, that kind of thing.
   "To get a B500 you just need to do 1 more 100km ride."
   "You're 3/4 of the way to an SR"
   "You've ridden further than 74% of AUK members."
etc.

I'd also see if it's possible to negotiate a discount at a chain of cycling/outdoor type shops (Halfords/Evans/Cotswold Outdoor/etc). That and stump up for a proper solid plastic membership card (not a print out and laminate yourself version). Most of the admin for this can be outsourced, there are plenty of companies that do this kind of thing for a price.

[citoyen]

The chances of someone fraudulently claiming CTC membership must be minuscule

Indeed. And the chances of such a rider being involved in an insurance claim are even more minuscule. Hence it's more idle pondering on my part, rather than suggesting it's a matter that needs to be addressed urgently.

I get the impression most members join up because they feel themselves to be audaxy people rather than to save £2 or even £3 a ride.

True. For many, I expect membership is worth it just to get Arrivée. And even more importantly, as discussed in the other thread, to facilitate entry to PBP - though presumably temp members who ride the requisite qualifiers are just as able to enter PBP, as long as they can access the website to get their ACP brevet numbers... If AUK wanted to encourage membership, perhaps it could restrict access to that information? (Not a serious suggestion!)


(ETA: cross-posted with Greenbank who makes some much more sensible suggestions regarding membership incentives.)

[Cudzoziemiec]

I'd also see if it's possible to negotiate a discount at a chain of cycling/outdoor type shops (Halfords/Evans/Cotswold Outdoor/etc). That and stump up for a proper solid plastic membership card (not a print out and laminate yourself version). Most of the admin for this can be outsourced, there are plenty of companies that do this kind of thing for a price.

That's a good idea. And seeing as even small local clubs are able to do this (with local shops), it shouldn't be hard for a national organisation with several thousand members, most of whom ride far more and presumably spend far more than the average cyclist.

[telstarbox]

That's a good idea. And seeing as even small local clubs are able to do this (with local shops), it shouldn't be hard for a national organisation with several thousand members, most of whom ride far more and presumably spend far more than the average cyclist.

"Ride more" - probably, "spend more" - very debatable 

[Brad]

James- are you seriously considering not renewing your membership over 4 quid?

[j_a_m_e_s_]

James- are you seriously considering not renewing your membership over 4 quid?

It was more of a rhetorical than anything.

Categorically, if I were to choose to let it lapse, it wouldn't be over the matter of £4. I'd pay double (possibly even triple) for the membership, if I was asked.

[Ivan]

As a non-member, you'd lose out on the opportunity to win ACH's glorious trophies as well.

[j_a_m_e_s_]

As a non-member, you'd lose out on the opportunity to win ACH's glorious trophies as well.

And that couldn't possible have a monetary value placed upon it.

Glory is eternal.

[Brad]

And frankly James, we need the points.

[frankly frankie]

The next question is: would an organiser be notified of such a change in the rider's circumstances? Would the online start list online start list be updated to reflect the change of status? If so, the org would at least have the option of charging the temp entry fee prior to the event, or annulling the entry. And can AUK charge organisers the temp entry fee regardless of whether the rider has paid it?

Members who become lapsed after they have entered, are (subtly) flagged in the organiser's online Start list.  Organisers of January events will be familiar with the phenomenon.
Whether the org is billed for them by AUK, I'll have to delve into the codebase to check that (and you've got me interested now) but I suspect not.  Whether the org should be billed for them is another good question.  The billing happens after the event, and you can't buy insurance retrospectively.  (That would be like betting on the horse that fell in last year's Grand National.)  But the fee is a Temp Member fee, not an insurance fee.

... The chances of someone fraudulently claiming CTC membership must be minuscule ...

"Pay £3 or tick this box" - quite common, I'd guess.

[j_a_m_e_s_]

But the fee is a Temp Member fee, not an insurance fee.

Which leads on to, what exactly does Temporary Membership give a rider? And why is it set at £2? Obviously the new £3 figure consists of at least £1 going to the website, but what is the rest?

[citoyen]

Members who become lapsed after they have entered, are (subtly) flagged in the organiser's online Start list.  Organisers of January events will be familiar with the phenomenon.

Good to know, though as my event is in September and doesn't open for entries until February, it's not something I'm likely to encounter.

The billing happens after the event, and you can't buy insurance retrospectively.  (That would be like betting on the horse that fell in last year's Grand National.)  But the fee is a Temp Member fee, not an insurance fee.

Well... yes, AUK collects the money from the organiser after the event, but the entrant pays it up front, which is surely the key detail as far as insurance is concerned.

But maybe the insurance thing is a red herring. I thought that was the (original) reason for the temp membership fee, but I could well be wrong on that.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I thought it was for insurance too. CTC members automatically have third-party insurance whenever they're cycling, so that would account for the CTC exemption. Although in that case, what about BC members? I thought they also had third-party insurance, but perhaps that's only in specific circs.

[frankly frankie]

Which leads on to, what exactly does Temporary Membership give a rider?

It's more what it gives the organiser.  It means we can say "everybody riding this event is a member of our club".  This has significant implications in the areas of liability, and more so maybe food catering licensing and so on.

And in practical terms, although this is less true now than it was in the past, non-members require significantly more effort administratively, and particularly on BRM events.  This is because our well-oiled machine is very MemNo-centric - and non-members don't have membership numbers and (in theory) we don't hold their personal data.  That alone is worth at least a £2 surcharge.

[vorsprung]

I've entered some rides for next season.

If I choose not to renew my membership, will either myself or the organisers of said rides be penalised with extra fees at all?

Also, how does it work with perms? If I've purchased brevets as a member, will they still be validated as a non member?

Answers on a postcard please.

The entry form has a date on it
If you are a member at that date then you pay the reduced rate as a member, insurance is your membership
Same with DIY it's the date on the entry form.  I'm not sure if you can do DIY as a non-member (but this might be just because there is almost no reason to want to do this)