Author Topic: Reducing meat intake for environmental reasons  (Read 3523 times)

Re: Reducing meat intake for environmental reasons
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2018, 03:19:16 pm »
One of the main reasons humans are more advanced than other species and thus dominate the planet, is the invention of fire. Once we discovered fire, we realised we could cook meat, which made it take less time to eat. Contrast that to, say, lions, who spend most of their time chewing their meat - meaning they haven't got time to do things like build cities.

Examples of species that don't eat meat: cows, giraffes, goats. I think the cleverest herbivore is probably actually the parrot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_herbivorous_animals

A good principle in general, is when you ask a question, try not to indicate what you want the answer to be. But it's funny when the person assumes incorrectly what you want the answer to be. Such as invariably happens in canteens:
"Is this burger veggie?"
"Yep!"
"Oh, I'll have a different one then."
;D
The evidence for your claims (use of fire = cooking meat = advances in civilization) are, I suggest, non existent. It takes a hell of a lot of time to build and energy to maintain a fire. Have you ever gathered and kept a fire going outdoors, for more than a couple of hours?

Everything I have read about advancement in civilization for human beings comes down to tool making and agriculture. The two are linked.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catching_Fire:_How_Cooking_Made_Us_Human
"...Cooking had profound evolutionary effect because it increased food efficiency which allowed human ancestors to spend less time foraging, chewing, and digesting...."

Quote
Critics of the cooking hypothesis question whether archaeological evidence supports the view that cooking fires began long enough ago to confirm Wrangham's findings.[7] The traditional explanation is that human ancestors scavenged carcasses for high-quality food that preceded the evolutionary shift to smaller guts and larger brains.

Cooking grains and vegetables has more of an effect on the digestibility of the food than cooking meat. Humans can digest raw meat (even with our current gut). Try living off raw grains and greens; it is very difficult. Many require soaking at least before eating.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Reducing meat intake for environmental reasons
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2018, 03:32:13 pm »
Batch cooking is a good way to cut down faff and have meals ready to go when you get home from a busy day.

Eg there'a veggie sausage casserole that I like to make (Cauldron sausages are my favourite) that is good for several meals. If you don't want to eat it for several days in a row you can freeze it in portions. Between the veggie sausages and the red lentils in it it's good on protein levels too.

I expect you could do the same with the veggie chilli we had at the weekend, and numerous other dishes.

I'm busy and I do find all the chopping a faff because I'm not a patient person but this is helped a lot by doing it all in one go.

Re: Reducing meat intake for environmental reasons
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2018, 03:59:30 pm »
A shit load of animal products are used in the production of veggies anyway. There's almost no point....
Those wonderful norks are never far from my thoughts, oh yeah!

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Reducing meat intake for environmental reasons
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2018, 04:07:10 pm »
A shit load of animal products are used in the production of veggies anyway. There's almost no point....

Literally a "shit load" in some cases.

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Reducing meat intake for environmental reasons
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2018, 04:30:50 pm »
Most veg has to be cooked, it's at mostly poisonous or at best difficult to digest. Plants invest a lot of metabolic effort in making themselves (fruit aside) unpalatable and undigestible. Any plant with tasty and nutritious leaves wouldn't be around for long. Of course, most modern veg has been bred specifically to less bitter and toxic, which is why we can throw into a salad. People used to boil cabbage for a week because that was the only way to break down the panoply of glucosinolates and other thiols therein. The amount of effort to make soybean, for instance, edible was titanic. The wheat in our bread has been through millennia of breeding. Herbivores must work hard to break down plant matter and rely heavily on their gut biome to shoulder the load.

Animals, on the other hand, can generally just be eaten if and when you catch them. Which is probably why there are carnivores, chasing things around is extremely energetic compared to eating things that are immobile. If it wasn't the nutritional difference, it's hard to justify – evolutionarily – why some animals go chasing around and killing other animals.
!nataS pihsroW

Re: Reducing meat intake for environmental reasons
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2018, 05:03:56 pm »
It's what God wanted.

Re: Reducing meat intake for environmental reasons
« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2018, 05:56:46 pm »
One of the main reasons humans are more advanced than other species and thus dominate the planet, is the invention of fire. Once we discovered fire, we realised we could cook meat, which made it take less time to eat. Contrast that to, say, lions, who spend most of their time chewing their meat - meaning they haven't got time to do things like build cities.

Examples of species that don't eat meat: cows, giraffes, goats. I think the cleverest herbivore is probably actually the parrot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_herbivorous_animals


Most herbivores have a digestive system that efficiently digests plant material. All those you mentioned have four stomachs, horses have a vast colon. We humans are much less efficient, and can’t produce protein from herbage ( ruminants do this with the help of micro flora and fauna in their digestive system).

Cudzoziemiec

  • Dormant but requires tea
Re: Reducing meat intake for environmental reasons
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2018, 05:58:05 pm »
It's what God wanted.
Rubbish! God wants cake.  :thumbsup:
The unwilling rider and the one who leaves each control in turn without reluctance, with no desire to come back, obviously cannot be making the same journey, even though their brevets are identical.

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Reducing meat intake for environmental reasons
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2018, 05:59:48 pm »
It's what God wanted.
Rubbish! God wants cake.  :thumbsup:

They did vegan cakes on Bake Off this week. They looked rubbish.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Dormant but requires tea
Re: Reducing meat intake for environmental reasons
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2018, 06:02:36 pm »
It's what God wanted.
Rubbish! God wants cake.  :thumbsup:

They did vegan cakes on Bake Off this week. They looked rubbish.
God won't look at the cakes. Just stuff them in his mouth. God is hungry, like the day after a 300 with 4.5AAA points.
The unwilling rider and the one who leaves each control in turn without reluctance, with no desire to come back, obviously cannot be making the same journey, even though their brevets are identical.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Reducing meat intake for environmental reasons
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2018, 06:04:07 pm »
It's what God wanted.

Are you referring to Cain and Abel?

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Reducing meat intake for environmental reasons
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2018, 08:16:42 pm »
Are those the guys that deliver organic veg boxes?
!nataS pihsroW

Re: Reducing meat intake for environmental reasons
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2018, 08:39:05 pm »
I totally get where you are coming from Wow.

I've made the decision though not to try to give up meat, but just to be super fussy about what meat we eat. Mostly it's from actual farms I know. I am particularly interested in how the slaughter is carried out.

Tonight I bought a couple of very expensive free range organic chicken breasts (and some wine) and the checkout person asked me if I was cooking something special. Had to admit that the chicken was not for us, it's for the dog who has just had a major operation. She was amazed I would spend £6 on a couple of chicken breasts for the dog. I explained that the thing is, it's not about the dog, it's about the chickens.

Re: Reducing meat intake for environmental reasons
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2018, 08:59:24 pm »
Two things wind me up about not eating meat. One is the immediate assumption that food has to be really spicy as some kind of compensation. I enjoy a good curry, but sometimes I just want food, is it really that hard? The other one is equating not eating meat with all the faddy diets. Try googling for a vegan recipe and 99% of them will be proudly gluten free. Why? People with coeliac disease don’t need to avoid meat, neither do non- meat eaters have to add in other invented allergies.

To answer the OP, we relied for years on Rose Elliot and the first Cranks cookbook, a lot of European/British recipes in both. Rose Elliot has quite a few wartime recipes so possibly what your parents did cook, but not necessarily share down the generations.
Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Reducing meat intake for environmental reasons
« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2018, 07:01:13 am »
both as a PSO and I'm expecting in my new life I'll be reducing meat intake for reasons of cost if nothing else.  I'm generally on the same wavelength as Feline here in that I try and buy as much of the meat that I do eat from sources I trust and are as local as possible - the value of a very good farmers market.  I also try to eat more game than farmed meat, plus fish and chicken, which have better sustainability credentials.

TBH, "english" recipes like shepherds pie, spag bol etc, you can always use a meat substitute or lentils to get the protein, without overly changing the feel of the dish.
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Reducing meat intake for environmental reasons
« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2018, 11:10:30 am »
Try googling for a vegan recipe and 99% of them will be proudly gluten free. Why? People with coeliac disease don’t need to avoid meat, neither do non- meat eaters have to add in other invented allergies.

I suspect it’s purely incidental, ie they’re not designed to be gluten-free, they just are by default. And that being the case, you might as well advertise them as such.

I also think you’re overreacting.

fuaran

  • rothair gasta
Re: Reducing meat intake for environmental reasons
« Reply #41 on: October 20, 2018, 11:18:07 am »
You don't really need to worry about protein. Eat a sensible diet, and you will get plenty. No need to ensure there is a 'protein source' in every meal. Meat isn't exactly a great source of protein anyway.

Re: Reducing meat intake for environmental reasons
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2018, 12:57:12 pm »
You can use a small amount of meat for flavour instead of it being one of the main ingredients.

Eg, one slice of bacon cut into thin strips then fried mainly in its own fat until it's well crispy.

Or cuts of meat thinly sliced and  well seasoned with salt and pepper as you fry it, you could also add soya sauce, fish sauce, worcestershire sauce etc.


ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Reducing meat intake for environmental reasons
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2018, 09:24:43 am »
You don't really need to worry about protein. Eat a sensible diet, and you will get plenty. No need to ensure there is a 'protein source' in every meal. Meat isn't exactly a great source of protein anyway.

Meat is mostly protein, so I think it's probably pretty good as protein sources go.

But no, you don't need meat for your protein, the average vegetarian diet is rich enough for it not to be a problem – our profligate first-world lifestyles ensure we get more protein, more of everything, that we need in a meal. It's only really an issue for vegans.
!nataS pihsroW

Re: Reducing meat intake for environmental reasons
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2018, 09:48:19 am »
Loads of good veggie proteins sources but simply removing meat from a traditional British diet and not replacing the protein somehow will leave a protein gap especially if one were to also cut down or remove milk eggs and cheese from your diet.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

fuaran

  • rothair gasta
Re: Reducing meat intake for environmental reasons
« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2018, 10:00:22 am »
No one has ever died from lack of protein (unless they are actually starving). Why assume a 'traditional British diet' is healthy in the first place.

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Reducing meat intake for environmental reasons
« Reply #46 on: October 22, 2018, 10:20:52 am »
I guess that's the problem – the traditional British meal always has meat as its centrepiece. Simply making that centrepiece smaller is likely just to make it disappointing. My parents won't ever eat a meal without meat (not an issue, since they have a freezer full of dubiously sourced meat, another story...)

It doesn't have to be complicated. I made broccoli cheese yesterday for my supper. Took about ten minutes – floret the broccoli, steam it till tender while making a quick cheese sauce (knob of butter, a spoon of flour, add milk till of the correct consistency, then grated cheese). Mix up, two minutes under the grill with a bit of cheese and a sprinkle of breadcrumbs on top. Et voilà. Many pasta dishes don't require or benefit from the addition of meat – there's plenty of scope for veggie curries, falafel and the like. Generally, I'm not big on pretend meat, but I really like the Cauldron sausages – I'm not entirely sure they taste like sausages but they're tasty nevertheless.

My exceptions are veggie chilli and bolognese – sorry, I've tried to make them work and failed, they just seem to need meat.
!nataS pihsroW

Re: Reducing meat intake for environmental reasons
« Reply #47 on: October 22, 2018, 11:20:54 am »
No one has ever died from lack of protein (unless they are actually starving). Why assume a 'traditional British diet' is healthy in the first place.

I don't. Its just if you remove the meat from it and the milk and eggs and dont replace them with anything its even worse.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

Re: Reducing meat intake for environmental reasons
« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2018, 11:44:30 am »

My exceptions are veggie chilli and bolognese – sorry, I've tried to make them work and failed, they just seem to need meat.

Cilli I'd agree with, I always put some mince in, tho often only 25%.  As to "bolognese", here's an Italian "fake meat" sauce..

https://www.visittuscany.com/en/recipes/sugo-finto-or-fake-meat-sauce-recipe-by-paolo-gori/

I've not tried it - in fact I only found out about it this weekend (it was in the Guardians Michael Caine cooking strip).
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Re: Reducing meat intake for environmental reasons
« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2018, 12:09:12 pm »
I used to cook quite a lot of veggie bolognaise and lasagne years ago as my sister is veggie and Mrs Pcolbeck was almost 100% veggie for several years (she made an exception for game). Sometimes I used a mince substitute.

Cant remember what the stuff was called but it was OK when simmered with tomatoes,onions and garlic etc. It might come to me later.

[edit]

Beanfeast soya mince - thats the stuff. Just add boiling water. There appear to be different flavours now I just to use the plain savoury mince one. Worked OK for a shepherds pie as well.
There are probably better things now as this was a long time ago ~ 20 years. The main thing about it was that it gave the right texture.

[/edit]
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.