Author Topic: Audax & Recovery time  (Read 1723 times)

quixoticgeek

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Audax & Recovery time
« on: October 19, 2018, 03:05:12 pm »


I'm currently going through my wish list of Audaxes to do next year and working out which ones I can logistically do. I notice that there are a number of cases where there is 2 weeks between 2 400's, or 2 weeks between 2 600's. What do people feel is adequate recovery time between rides like this? Is it overly optimistic to try 600's with only 2 weeks between them? None of the rides I'm planning are excessively hilly, tho there is a high chance of substantial head winds.

J
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LittleWheelsandBig

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Re: Audax & Recovery time
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2018, 03:16:24 pm »
How fit you are and how hard you have to push to finish makes all the difference. In 2011, HK and I rode 2 x 1200 with a week between. The conditions/ circumstances for both were tough and I hadn't fully recovered before the second brevet. Accordingly it was harder to finish the second than would normally be the case.

Two weeks between 400s and 600s should be fine, provided you are fit/ fast enough before you start the first. If you have to drag yourself into the finish of the first using your fingernails, the second will be really tough.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Audax & Recovery time
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2018, 03:19:48 pm »
everyone's a bit different, but my rule of thumb is one day's recovery per each 100km. so six full days after the 600, or forty after the tcr (that's what i've noticed). perhaps it would not work for the peak/ultimate fitness, but for audaxes and general riding it's a good ballpark.

T42

  • Gaulois réfractaire
Re: Audax & Recovery time
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2018, 03:39:30 pm »
Beware of testing muscles too soon. A week after a 1200k in 2006 I did a 57k followed by a 75k next day and tore a bit of my left quad.  It still gives me the odd problem.
I dare eat all that may become a man.

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hellymedic

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Re: Audax & Recovery time
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2018, 03:43:59 pm »
A fortnight between long rides should be fine, IME.

Try to avoid starting any ride with a sleep or food debt.

Re: Audax & Recovery time
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2018, 05:31:04 pm »
For a 400k I count 10 days, for a 600k slightly more as 14 days.

j_a_m_e_s_

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Re: Audax & Recovery time
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2018, 06:31:05 pm »
I've still not got over the 600 I rode back in May.
Rule 77

Re: Audax & Recovery time
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2018, 06:59:00 pm »
2 weeks is fine between 400s and 600s.  Make sure you keep spinnng your legs in between also stretching and appropriate refuelling.

I have 12 days (hopefully) between finishing RAtN and my 600.   That might be a push.

Re: Audax & Recovery time
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2018, 07:16:09 pm »
I agree with the above points about the recovery time being dependent upon how much you are generally riding (ie cycling fitness), and how intense the effort is to complete your rides.

I've been riding a lot this past year, with at least a 200km most weekends. I've found that I can ride consecutive weekends with the longer rides without ill effect, but paying attention to eating well and getting good sleep is preferable.

On one instance I had a gap of 5 days between a moderate 450km ride and a 1000km ride. I don't think I was compromised in the latter ride.

Another factor is comfort on the bike. If you are not experiencing any discomfort after a ride, then it is much easier to sequence the rides close together.

Bianchi Boy

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Re: Audax & Recovery time
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2018, 07:23:05 pm »
I am currently trying to work out how I can get my better half to thee consecutive weekends away!
Recovery should be fine for Audax riding but at my age race pace is what kills me. Riding on the limit for an hour is harder than a 200km in 10 hours, and takes more recovery. There again I never was that fast.
BB

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Re: Audax & Recovery time
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2018, 08:24:42 pm »
The really scientific answer would lie in knowing the TSS values from every ride (and other strenuous activity you do) and then keeping track of your ATL, CTL and TSB values.

Knowing the TSS for each activity requires either a power meter and knowledge of your FTP, or an HRM and something that calculates HR-TSS.

The general principle of TSS is that an hour at FTP = 100 TSS.

So 2 hours at 50% FTP also = 100TSS.

A typical 200km Audax I'm averaging about 50%-60% FTP, so if I'm moving for 10h of that then that's 500-600 TSS.

(As you get fitter you'll find that you need to go further/faster/etc to get the same TSS load as your fitness improves.)

With that you can work out CTL (Chronic Training Load = Fitness), ATL (Acute Training Load = Fatigue) and TSB (Training Stress Balance = Form).

(stolen from my post on LFGSS)

Quote
Most systems like PMC/F&F work on the same principles:-

    Fitness is based on the last 42 days data.
    Fatigue is based on the last 7 days data.
    Form is yesterday's fitness - yesterday's fatigue

I do all of mine in a spreadsheet now. The tricky bit is accurately calculating the various TSS scores. The CTL/ATL figures are relatively easy:-

    Today's CTL (fitness) is 41/42 of yesterday's fitness, plus 1/42 of today's total TSS score(s).
    Today's ATL (fatigue) is 6/7 of yesterday's fatigue, plus 1/7 of today's total TSS score(s).
    Today's TSB (form) is yesterday's CTL - yesterday's ATL

Here's a sample Google Docs spreadsheet I made to do it: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1e4I1V7fdzyzkvbtfjiuDTbqbifBfJyFn6fnu4DzC848/edit#gid=0

The point of training is to ramp up CTL, but not too fast that your ATL also builds up and leaves you knackered (big -ve TSB). Then you get to tapering where you will lose a bit of fitness (CTL) but lose more fatigue (ATL) and so you hit your target race/ride/whatever with a big +ve form (TSB).

Finally, here's my data for 2014-2016 plotted on a chart (PMC = Performance Management Chart):-

http://www.greenbank.org/misc/pmc2014_2016.png



You can see me start to try and get fit from September 2014 as my daughter started school and I had a day off to beast myself. The blue (fitness) line starts to rise up nicely. It tailed off for Christmas, then a bit of an effort to kick it off again after the new year. The big fatigue spikes are Audaxes (Ditchling Devil in June I think). There's also another attempt to get fit in the first few months of 2016 but then it tails off and I lose a considerable chunk of my fitness before the big spike in late July which was the Mersey Roads 24h TT.

I had hoped to get my CTL up to >100, which means at least an hour at FTP every day (or 2 hours at 50% FTP every day). Never quite got there though.

(Mine is more complicated now as I'm mixing in running, swimming and cycling. Not all TSS are created equal!)

Anyway. This is more than the vast majority of Audaxers ever consider, but it's the scientific basis behind fitness, fatigue and form - which are the essential parts of recovery.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Phil W

Re: Audax & Recovery time
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2018, 09:17:47 pm »
I usually find my fatigue disappears within a week of 400s and 600s. I schedule them 2 weeks apart minimum as a matter of course. Before a 1000+ ride I like a 4 week gap from my last overnight ride. I am generally on the bike the day after a 400 or 600 but usually nothing much longer than 30km of a commute etc.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Audax & Recovery time
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2018, 09:18:05 pm »
2 weeks is fine between 400s and 600s.  Make sure you keep spinnng your legs in between also stretching and appropriate refuelling.

I have 12 days (hopefully) between finishing RAtN and my 600.   That might be a push.

Assuming my RatN effort is as full value as my Audaxes, I have 15-16 days between RatN and a 400, then 2 weeks until the first 600.

The really scientific answer would lie in knowing the TSS values from every ride (and other strenuous activity you do) and then keeping track of your ATL, CTL and TSB values.

Knowing the TSS for each activity requires either a power meter and knowledge of your FTP, or an HRM and something that calculates HR-TSS.

TBH, you had me at power meter, data, and sexy graph!

Quote
Anyway. This is more than the vast majority of Audaxers ever consider, but it's the scientific basis behind fitness, fatigue and form - which are the essential parts of recovery.

Your post has given me some really interesting info to go with, thank you! I'm hoping to have a power meter by the new year, I'm trying to get my life together so I can start serious training, I need something more structured than my turning left out the office and seeing where I end up before riding home. But I also need to get my nutrition sorted too, currently my diet is a bit of a horror show, sure I'm loosing weight, but I'm probably eating too much chocolate, and there is a general lack of green in my diet.

I'm putting together a menu of training sessions, with say 5-8 different work outs, that I can pick each day. I know if I try to make a schedule of x on Monday, Y on Tuesday etc... I won't stick to it, life, and work will get in the way, but if I can just turn left out of the office, ride out the city and hit shuffle on a training session, I've more chance of sticking to it.

I agree with the above points about the recovery time being dependent upon how much you are generally riding (ie cycling fitness), and how intense the effort is to complete your rides.

I've been riding a lot this past year, with at least a 200km most weekends. I've found that I can ride consecutive weekends with the longer rides without ill effect, but paying attention to eating well and getting good sleep is preferable.

In July I did 3 200's in 8 days, with a 300 on the 13th day. I didn't really feel any ill effects of it, tho my arse was a bit sore by the end of the 300. But that could have been rectified had I stopped to put some cream on, rather than pushing on as it's only 60km to go...

In September I did an 11 day tour, with 10 consecutive days of 100+, varying from 117km to 167km, which included some crazy stuff, like the 40km fasted ride at -4°C, the 20km fasted ride in shorts (leg warmers got soaked when I left them outside my bivvi bag in the rain), it was a holiday so I wasn't really pushing it, but it's giving me a good base to build on.

Quote
On one instance I had a gap of 5 days between a moderate 450km ride and a 1000km ride. I don't think I was compromised in the latter ride.

Another factor is comfort on the bike. If you are not experiencing any discomfort after a ride, then it is much easier to sequence the rides close together.

Yeah, I learnt the hard way that any slight discomfort on a short ride is going to be amplified big time on bigger rides. Part of my training is going to involve fettling my bike to the point of total comfort, or as close as I can get to it. I'm hoping that in another ~5kg or so of weight loss I'll be able to fit into some better shorts than the ones I have now. Currently decathlon are about the only place I can go to get shorts that fit me.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Audax & Recovery time
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2018, 09:58:43 pm »
Forgot to say, another thing for measuring fatigue is HR Variability (HRV).

https://philmaffetone.com/hrv/ (random article from google, can't find the original one I read about it in)

Simply put, the more fatigued you are the more regular your heart beat is.

For example, if your resting HR is 60bpm then that's 1 second (1000ms) per beat.

The most fatigued would mean the beats are exactly 1 second apart.

If you're nicely rested then the beats might be 950ms, 1025ms, 975ms, 950ms, 1050ms, ... but still averaging 1000ms per beat = 60bpm.

More modern Garmins and HRM straps can measure it (as do some other manufacturers). Some websites such as runalyze.com can do the stats for you:-



More modern Garmins (especially the Forerunner watches) try to summarise it for you and use it in their 'how knackered you are' calculations when they tell you how long you need to rest after a specific activity. After a relatively heavy week (since I'm just getting back into it) and a 5.6km run followed by a 12km commute home on a heavy bike it's currently telling me "Recovery 16 hours - Train as usual" (I'll be doing another 5k run in about 12 hours...)
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Audax & Recovery time
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2018, 10:08:06 pm »
Forgot to say, another thing for measuring fatigue is HR Variability (HRV).

https://philmaffetone.com/hrv/ (random article from google, can't find the original one I read about it in)

Simply put, the more fatigued you are the more regular your heart beat is.

For example, if your resting HR is 60bpm then that's 1 second (1000ms) per beat.

The most fatigued would mean the beats are exactly 1 second apart.

If you're nicely rested then the beats might be 950ms, 1025ms, 975ms, 950ms, 1050ms, ... but still averaging 1000ms per beat = 60bpm.

More modern Garmins and HRM straps can measure it (as do some other manufacturers). Some websites such as runalyze.com can do the stats for you:-



More modern Garmins (especially the Forerunner watches) try to summarise it for you and use it in their 'how knackered you are' calculations when they tell you how long you need to rest after a specific activity. After a relatively heavy week (since I'm just getting back into it) and a 5.6km run followed by a 12km commute home on a heavy bike it's currently telling me "Recovery 16 hours - Train as usual" (I'll be doing another 5k run in about 12 hours...)

Ooh that's rather funky. Do you know if the Wahoo HRM's can do the same?

Exercise, bike riding, and juicy juicy data. Yay!

J
--
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http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Audax & Recovery time
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2018, 11:17:19 pm »
Usually I find that one week is enough for recovery between 400km or 600km audax rides, but if the first ride is hard, the second will be tougher than usual. This doesn't matter that much as long as you can get round in the time limit, but in 2013 I made the mistake of riding the Buzzard 600km the weekend before the Mersey 24 hour TT. My legs felt fine on the time trial, but I had trouble staying awake and had to keep stopping for little sleeps all night resulting in a shorter distance than I would have liked in the 24 hours. Another week's recovery and I'd probably have been fine and would definitely have been ok for another audax ride.

I don't have a power meter or heart rate monitor so I have to simply ride according to how I feel. If I feel that I'm going too far into the red on an audax ride I just ease back a bit and have a bar or gel. I aim to ride at the maximum sustainable pace for whatever distance and hardness of event I am riding. I don't do fasting, but like to have a good breakfast (typically beans on toast) before riding and prefer to ride on energy bars and occasional gels during the event.


CrazyEnglishTriathlete

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Re: Audax & Recovery time
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2018, 07:48:18 pm »
It does depend on overall fitness - there are riders who seem to be able to knock out rides with impressive frequency.  I've always left two weeks between events of 400k+ and I think I need that.  I've ridden with riders who have ridden 600s on consecutive weekends who would normally leave me well behind and I've been able to keep up. 

Those who talk about intensity have a good point.  I raced the Sussex 24 hour trying to get a good overall distance and I wasn't properly recovered for PBP 6 weeks later.

For 300s, unless they've been especially hard, I can do another event the following weekend - I got round the super-hard Cambrian 4D the week after the Rough Diamond with no ill-effects from the previous ride.  But I wouldn't have wanted to do a long event the weekend after an Elenydd or a hard Cambrian 300.

Two weeks apart is generally fine - it often happens with the way that PBP qualifiers land.
Eddington Numbers 122 (imperial), 167 (metric) 511 (furlongs)  110 (nautical miles)

Re: Audax & Recovery time
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2018, 08:01:52 pm »
2 weeks is fine between 400s and 600s.  Make sure you keep spinnng your legs in between also stretching and appropriate refuelling.

I have 12 days (hopefully) between finishing RAtN and my 600.   That might be a push.

I also forgot the National 12hr is the weekend before PBP.   I’m not sure that combination is a particularly good idea.

Re: Audax & Recovery time
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2018, 08:25:33 pm »
Dinnit gan on daft and yerl be reet.  8)

Re: Audax & Recovery time
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2018, 12:07:08 am »
2 weeks is fine between 400s and 600s.  Make sure you keep spinnng your legs in between also stretching and appropriate refuelling.

I have 12 days (hopefully) between finishing RAtN and my 600.   That might be a push.

I also forgot the National 12hr is the weekend before PBP.   I’m not sure that combination is a particularly good idea.
It should be alright and better than the other way round. I thought the same about Mark Rigby's Highlands and Islands 1300km starting on the Isle of Arran the morning after the Mersey 24 hour in 2014, but I did ok on both rides, despite my legs being absolutely full of lactate on day 1 of the 1300. Fortunately we had a forced stop in Oban on the first night that gave me chance to recover.



Re: Audax & Recovery time
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2018, 05:39:25 pm »
It does depend on overall fitness - there are riders who seem to be able to knock out rides with impressive frequency.

Well, yes. TG was knocking out close to a 400km every day for almost 3 years (give or take a few months off). He was, quite rightly, trying to the minimise intensity of those rides.

It took him a long time to build up to being able to do that though.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

FifeingEejit

  • Small, Far Away
Re: Audax & Recovery time
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2018, 02:24:14 pm »
The really scientific answer would lie in knowing the TSS values from every ride (and other strenuous activity you do) and then keeping track of your ATL, CTL and TSB values.

--Epic Snip--

Anyway. This is more than the vast majority of Audaxers ever consider, but it's the scientific basis behind fitness, fatigue and form - which are the essential parts of recovery.

Ah! So that's what the Strava Form and Fitness graph page is about!

Re: Audax & Recovery time
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2018, 03:26:03 pm »
"How fit you are and how hard you have to push to finish makes all the difference."

This.

I set my 10mi PB after racing TCR4 but when I tried a similar thing this year and raced a 50mi TT after TransAm I was toast and just rolled around. Couldn't be bothered.
Physically I could make the power, but mentally I couldn't will myself to keep suffering for more than 10mi.
If you've dug deep mentally, you've really got to want to finish well in the next event as any hint of you thinking "it's not so important" will have you off the bike quicker than you can reapply chamois cream.
The pace you're going for an RatN and a 600k are likely pretty similar so unless you've really gone deep in RatN you should cope well with the 600k.

I'm in a similar boat with RatN and then 4x600s entered a week or two afterwards, one per week, including that really flat Pendle 600... 

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Audax & Recovery time
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2018, 03:38:36 pm »
I'm in a similar boat with RatN and then 4x600s entered a week or two afterwards, one per week, including that really flat Pendle 600...

Hey! Hadn't spotted your name in the list there. Yay! Gonna get a chance to not only meet you at last, but to ride with you, at least for the first 50m before I'm spat out the back of the group again...

J
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Re: Audax & Recovery time
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2018, 03:46:55 pm »
Yeah, I used my charm and good looks to sneak in. ;)
The RatN start town should be a little less hectic than TCR, although I'm pretty good at turning everything into a last minute panic.
Then again it's NL so there's the coffee shop option for relaxing pre-race. :)