Author Topic: Easter Arrow 2019  (Read 6519 times)

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Easter Arrow 2019
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2019, 06:17:47 pm »
If they arrive at their destination too early, teams normally ride an additional out and back.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Easter Arrow 2019
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2019, 07:38:33 pm »
If they arrive at their destination too early, teams normally ride an additional out and back.

How is proof of passage done for this? Can it be validated by GPX?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Easter Arrow 2019
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2019, 08:18:02 pm »
Talk to the organiser about that. I've had great arrow organisers and occasionally others that were distinctly not and rejected homologation of valid rides. Most are pragmatic.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Easter Arrow 2019
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2019, 10:43:23 am »
If they arrive at their destination too early, teams normally ride an additional out and back.
How is proof of passage done for this? Can it be validated by GPX?
I think the psychological challenge of riding to York all day and overnight and then "riding an additional 'out and back'" in the morning (York) rush hour would be too great for me and, with more relevance, test the hardened of groups' dynamics. On the other hand a diversion a bit earlier when extraordinarily (wind-assisted) good progress was evident and motivating seems what the rules expect.

But the unplanned nature of an additional excursion is the nub of the (organisational/leader's) challenge. With a few hours to go, if we are ahead of (self-imposed) schedule, I want to have a plan, for example: Thorne is 48k from York (shortest). A possible diversion to add distance is, from Selby, to go via Wetherby (assured PoP) and come in on the Rufforth road. That's 80k - so 32k more.
But I'm not going to include Wetherby on my planned route, because we need to get to York for breakfast (9am say).
If the solution to this is a 'talk to the organiser' mantra, then has someone done this in the past and what was the organiser's advice? Or do teams never try to claim extra distance that they've enjoyed riding, further (up to 20%) ride more than they've planned? (in which case why the 'above' rule? Or is this a 'French' thing?

On the GPX side the rules say:
"5. CONTROLS Each team member shall obtain proof of passage at the starting point and each designated control in the form of a stamp, ATM or till receipt."
I don't think any proof by GPX is part of an Easter Arrow. Or if it is (and a team is (all team members are) prepared to rely on their little machines for 24 hours of recording) why not say this (in the rules)?

"3. DISTANCES. At least 360km must be covered during the 24 hours but you should plan more e.g. 400k or 500k as your target.
The team will be validated if the actual distance covered is within 20% above or below the one stated before the ride (with an absolute minimum of 360km) E.g. if you plan a 450km route the team must ride between 360 and 540km."
I'm assuming the "actual distance covered" (see #3 above) is the shortest route by cycle (assessed by whatever is the current flavour of 'app') between the start and the planned finish, via specified controls, not the bicycling meanderings of a random route. For example from the KFC in Retford to the McD at Goole services, the route via Thorne is 53k. You can go via Crowle (which would be 60k) but if those are the two controls the 'credit' (assessed distance) is 53k.

Less than 15 weeks to go now :) It's balmy and the sun is trying to break through even, today down in Devon.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Easter Arrow 2019
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2019, 10:54:32 am »
Believe what you like about what the Arrow rules intend. My first Arrow was in 1993 and I've done more than a dozen of them in three countries for at least seven organisers and I've been an Arrow organiser myself in another country. The current Easter Arrow organiser hasn't been doing this event for a huge number of years so any experience with previous organisers is accordingly pretty meaningless. Some Arrow organisers might allow mid-route additions but most don't and the rules aren't set up to encourage them. Very few British teams do additional distance, so there isn't much in the way of precedents to follow.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Easter Arrow 2019
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2019, 11:25:59 am »
Re distance covered, it is the 'walking distance' between your control points using Google Maps that I have used previously to determine the minimum distance.

As far as I am aware, all validation must be via physical proof (receipts etc) or photographic evidence if other options are not available. GPX validation is not allowed.

Re: Easter Arrow 2019
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2019, 04:01:44 pm »
Believe what you like about what the Arrow rules intend. My first Arrow was in 1993 and I've done more than a dozen of them in three countries for at least seven organisers and I've been an Arrow organiser myself in another country. The current Easter Arrow organiser hasn't been doing this event for a huge number of years so any experience with previous organisers is accordingly pretty meaningless. Some Arrow organisers might allow mid-route additions but most don't and the rules aren't set up to encourage them. Very few British teams do additional distance, so there isn't much in the way of precedents to follow.
Thank you for that insight, clearly from massive and broad experience. My problem is I don't know what to believe "about what the Arrow rules intend" with regard to the over distance aspect. Under-distance is straightforward (mustn't be more than 20% under the planned route and say where you are at 24 hours and get a proof up the road as soon as possible).

Over distance? Get to York by 22 hours, say. Then what? Ride another 25k out and back, finding a PoP at the 'turn'.
"The team must ride until the end of the 24th hour."
"A minimum of 25km must be ridden between the 22nd hour control point and the finish."

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Easter Arrow 2019
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2019, 05:34:39 pm »
The team must ride till the end of the 24th hour is a French-ism, as is 'No rest stop longer than 2 hours'. Most folk stop for as long as they wish, get PoP 25-30km away at the 22hr point and just ride to the finish. Ride >=25km within the last 2 hours is standard worldwide.

Usually teams do their distance and if they wish to ride further and have time to do so, then they usually do an additional out and back, though they could just continue in a straight line. They don't have to finish at York. Given the finish is a weekend morning, traffic usually isn't too bad. For details as to what route/ PoP/ etc. that is acceptable to the current Arrow organiser for overdistance rides, you need to ask her.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Easter Arrow 2019
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2019, 05:48:51 pm »
If your team really wants to go for it you should plan a distance that is probably greater than you can reasonably expect.
Lakes Audaxes on again in May 2019 (200km and 300km with hall accomodation).  Also an October running of The Tour of Rheged from S Lakes.

Re: Easter Arrow 2019
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2019, 08:59:34 pm »
In my experience, the main thing is that your proposed route is at least 360 km and you ride at least 25 km in the last two hours. So at my last Arrow, we had a route that was 380 km (minimum walking distance between our designated controls) and we had our eyes set on a bakery 30 km before the finish. We arrived at the bakery 21 hours and 30 minutes after the start, had a decent breakfast, and cycled to the finish location (arriving 20 mins early). No need for loops or out-and-backs, just proper planning.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Easter Arrow 2019
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2019, 10:22:53 pm »
I've been up on distance twice (including for a 500km total) and down three times but all within the allowable tolerances. The rest have hit their targets, which has generally been fairly modest (361-435km from memory). Nothing wrong with aiming at an ambitious target or a modest one and nothing wrong with boosting beyond targets or falling a shade short. It is done for fun after all.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Easter Arrow 2019
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2019, 09:14:22 am »
I've been up on distance twice (including for a 500km total) and down three times but all within the allowable tolerances.
Life is clearly a lot simpler if you aim for 500km - the 20% tolerance is then exactly 100km. That's a lot easier to remember, and no stressing about one's mental arithmetic  :thumbsup:
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Easter Arrow 2019
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2019, 09:22:21 am »
We used to have a 400k planned route with a shortcut that would do the minimum 360k.   We could then take the shorter option if conditions or legs dictated.

At least a couple of times we just went with the min distance and didn't care about the points.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Easter Arrow 2019
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2019, 09:35:01 am »
Sure but what was acceptable to a previous organiser might not be to the current one. HK's preferred arrow route used to have a 300km straight line with no intermediate controls (so no need to lose time every 80km). That got knocked on the head when a new organiser came in.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Easter Arrow 2019
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2019, 10:03:33 am »
Sure but what was acceptable to a previous organiser might not be to the current one. HK's preferred arrow route used to have a 300km straight line with no intermediate controls (so no need to lose time every 80km). That got knocked on the head when a new organiser came in.

Actually it's quite a long time since I last did one.   I think my Mum got less receptive to riders turning up late on Good Friday, eating her food and sleeping on the longe floor.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Easter Arrow 2019
« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2019, 11:30:02 am »

I'm trying to make sense of how the controls work.

Say you had a route from London to York, with controls, that is exactly 360km (humour me for now). There's a stonking tail wind, so you end up in York with 4 hours still to go. So you decide to have a cup of tea, a fry up, and then do an out and back of 12.5km to a village outside York that has a shop you can get a receipt at. The wind is great, and you end up doing that, and still have an over an hour of the final 2 to go. So you do another out and back to another village. With a shop. Repeat until you've done your 25km in the last 2 hours.

When signing up for this, would you have: Start control (London), Intermediate controls 1,2,3, 'end' Control York, additional control of village a, village b, village c, etc...

How do you do the controls for an Arror where you want to actually finish up at York, without having to keep riding past it, and end up riding for considerably more than the 24 hours ?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Easter Arrow 2019
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2019, 11:32:23 am »
I believe you only submit the controls for your declared distance.

I expect most people plan their options, but you could completely wing it on the day - the organiser doesn't need to know, either way.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Easter Arrow 2019
« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2019, 11:40:35 am »
The last time we had a massive tailwind we had longer stops and ate more.

jiberjaber

  • ... Fancy Pants \o/ ...
  • ACME S&M^2
Re: Easter Arrow 2019
« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2019, 11:59:52 am »
I find the Arrow one of the hardest events because we always aim for 4 points and as a result it turns into a 24hr over distance 400km. Last year we even thought (in the pub) that a hillyier version would be a great idea!

But surely there's is no need at all to arrive in York (or your end control in the direction of York) so early as to need an out & back (which wont count for additional distance/points anyway!)... you just need to know your open & closing times for your controls and burn time / reduce faff based on getting to the penultimate and final controls with a small buffer 15-30mins or so.

After a couple of years at this, I think the key to a good arrow is getting a selection of controls which give 400km walking but with the minimum of overdistance when you plot the route to be ridden.

Luckily our team captain is spreadsheet el-suprimo  :thumbsup:
Regards,

Jason

arabella

  • no se porque yo no lo se
Re: Easter Arrow 2019
« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2019, 07:47:32 pm »
One of the arrows I organised had a nice tailwind, so we were well ahead of ourselves at the point at which one of us had a deflation.  By the time we'd sorted it we were all a mite chilly, and ended up killing time and warming up in a hotel reception.  they kindly fed us tea and crisps too!
Another time I planned in an out and back just in case.  We didn't use it!
Unless you're trying to win, having a schedule and (knowing where to) kill time is probably simpler
In the dark, all views are the same.

Re: Easter Arrow 2019
« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2019, 10:30:05 am »
I find the Arrow one of the hardest events because we always aim for 4 points and as a result it turns into a 24hr over distance 400km. Last year we even thought (in the pub) that a hillyier version would be a great idea!
But surely there's is no need at all to arrive in York (or your end control in the direction of York) so early as to need an out & back (which wont count for additional distance/points anyway!)... you just need to know your open & closing times for your controls and burn time / reduce faff based on getting to the penultimate and final controls with a small buffer 15-30mins or so.
After a couple of years at this, I think the key to a good arrow is getting a selection of controls which give 400km walking but with the minimum of overdistance when you plot the route to be ridden.
Luckily our team captain is spreadsheet el-suprimo  :thumbsup:
Aiming for 4+ points seems entirely sensible (ie plan a route of over 400k).
"There's is no need at all to arrive in York", but ("believe what you like") an element of the spirit of the Easter Arrow is to meet up with other teams at York (and I'm working on Saturday breakfast time as the RV/time). So one doesn't need to set the finish as York, but seems sensible to get there, be sociable hopefully (and allows an easy and attractive solution (railway) to the logistics of recovery to home/start for many). For assurance, rail tickets need buying and cycle places need reserving, so even if we don't reach York in 24 hours, we'll be riding on there to see if anyone's still in the pub and to catch our trains.
A factor in the assessment of the likely location at 21-22 hours and the choice of finish will be the requirement to get a PoP. There will be more options the later a team starts, as 21-22 hours will be when a greater range (geographically) shops etc are open (for PoP).
"I think the key to a good arrow is getting a selection of controls which give 400km walking but with the minimum of overdistance when you plot the route to be ridden." Beautifully put. Together with sensible road choice (time of day/night dependent), avoiding gratuitous climbing, and an achievable but stretch target distance finishing in York, my route has the 'minimum extra distance' criterion as a key consideration. Currently I'm less than 1.8% over with 4 intermediate controls.



LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Easter Arrow 2019
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2019, 10:49:02 am »
The French prioritise the maximum possible distance for each team, so squeezing out every additional kilometre is considered admirable there. The Brits often focus on the number of points, so there is cluster of just over 400km or just over 500km. The Aussies tend to either scrape over the minimum 360km or a few push for big distances with not many teams in between.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

jiberjaber

  • ... Fancy Pants \o/ ...
  • ACME S&M^2
Re: Easter Arrow 2019
« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2019, 11:47:21 am »
I find the Arrow one of the hardest events because we always aim for 4 points and as a result it turns into a 24hr over distance 400km. Last year we even thought (in the pub) that a hillyier version would be a great idea!
But surely there's is no need at all to arrive in York (or your end control in the direction of York) so early as to need an out & back (which wont count for additional distance/points anyway!)... you just need to know your open & closing times for your controls and burn time / reduce faff based on getting to the penultimate and final controls with a small buffer 15-30mins or so.
After a couple of years at this, I think the key to a good arrow is getting a selection of controls which give 400km walking but with the minimum of overdistance when you plot the route to be ridden.
Luckily our team captain is spreadsheet el-suprimo  :thumbsup:
Aiming for 4+ points seems entirely sensible (ie plan a route of over 400k).
"There's is no need at all to arrive in York", but ("believe what you like") an element of the spirit of the Easter Arrow is to meet up with other teams at York (and I'm working on Saturday breakfast time as the RV/time). So one doesn't need to set the finish as York, but seems sensible to get there, be sociable hopefully (and allows an easy and attractive solution (railway) to the logistics of recovery to home/start for many). For assurance, rail tickets need buying and cycle places need reserving, so even if we don't reach York in 24 hours, we'll be riding on there to see if anyone's still in the pub and to catch our trains.
A factor in the assessment of the likely location at 21-22 hours and the choice of finish will be the requirement to get a PoP. There will be more options the later a team starts, as 21-22 hours will be when a greater range (geographically) shops etc are open (for PoP).
"I think the key to a good arrow is getting a selection of controls which give 400km walking but with the minimum of overdistance when you plot the route to be ridden." Beautifully put. Together with sensible road choice (time of day/night dependent), avoiding gratuitous climbing, and an achievable but stretch target distance finishing in York, my route has the 'minimum extra distance' criterion as a key consideration. Currently I'm less than 1.8% over with 4 intermediate controls.

I think we broadly agree but with one clarification, the full context of "There's is no need at all to arrive in York" in my original post was pointing out that with appropriate planning there should be no need to add an out and back to burn time on arrival at York..... I am certainly not suggesting don't bother aiming for York as I agree, part of the fun is comparing war stories over a beer at the end  :thumbsup:
Regards,

Jason

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Easter Arrow 2019
« Reply #48 on: January 10, 2019, 12:20:16 pm »
Do we have to aim for York?

Last time I read the regs, it said something like " ... must ride towards York." So I asked if you could start in somewhere sunny like West Africa, with a flat tail-windy 600km stretch pointed towards York. Then submit a route which finishes many 100s of km from York.

I don't recall getting an answer! The question seems relevant if you live 450km from York.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Easter Arrow 2019
« Reply #49 on: January 10, 2019, 02:02:11 pm »
Quite a few French teams start from further away than they will be able to achieve within 24hrs. In their case, the cards have to be physically handed over at the finish location by the team captain on the day, which limits 'extracting the urine' in the method you suggest.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...