Author Topic: Arrows rules  (Read 11405 times)

Re: Arrows rules
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2019, 12:49:05 am »
Of course it is bullshit that "The team must ride until the end of the 24th hour." Virtually no team actually does that, unless they are finishing short of their target.
yes it's poorly worded, as for completion, you need to get your PoP before 24hours are up, so you can't possibly still be riding at the end of 24 hours, unless you are late/short of distance.
I'm sure it's not the expectation that everyone records where they are at 24 hours and then arrives at York some time later.
*yes we really were only 1km short of york at 10:00, I know it took us half an hour but we had two punctures*

Perhaps there should be a clarification, after all if people are expected to get PoP in the 22nd hour, and then continue on at least 25km before completing at the end of the 24th hour, that means that last 25km is covered at between 12.5km/h and 8.33km/h unusually slow for audax.
   Eddington  81 miles  112 kms

Re: Arrows rules
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2019, 11:14:29 am »
Of course it is bullshit that "The team must ride until the end of the 24th hour." Virtually no team actually does that, unless they are finishing short of their target.
yes it's poorly worded, as for completion, you need to get your PoP before 24hours are up, so you can't possibly still be riding at the end of 24 hours, unless you are late/short of distance.
I'm sure it's not the expectation that everyone records where they are at 24 hours and then arrives at York some time later.
*yes we really were only 1km short of york at 10:00, I know it took us half an hour but we had two punctures*

Perhaps there should be a clarification, after all if people are expected to get PoP in the 22nd hour, and then continue on at least 25km before completing at the end of the 24th hour, that means that last 25km is covered at between 12.5km/h and 8.33km/h unusually slow for audax.
To LWaB: [""The team must ride until the end of the 24th hour." Virtually no team actually does that unless they are finishing short of their target."] With a 0800 start, our team rode till about 0820. At 0800 we were 10km short of York centre 'in the middle of nowhere' on the cyclepath so rode on to Bishopsthorpe to get a PoP at the shop there. This was by my design: we were not finishing short of our target, we were riding on to achieve 'over-distance'. If the team captain plans too short a route, or the team rides at a speed above that expected, then of course your assertion would be correct. But if the route/distance planned is a 'stretch target' - because the aim is to achieve as high a mileage as possible, using every minute of the 24 hours - then quite likely a team will ride through and beyond the 24 hour moment, and whether that's short of the declared distance or managing a bit of over-distance is irrelevant.

To Wycombe Wheeler ["you need to get your PoP before 24hours are up . . . it's not the expectation that everyone records where they are at 24 hours and then arrives at York some time later.]:
You don't need to get your PoP "before the 24 hours are up". The rules specifically direct how this is to be handled. Some will arrive at their 'finish' before the 24 hour point, nevertheless having done 25km since their 22nd hour PoP. Others will find it easier to ride through the 24 hour moment and get a PoP later.
The rules on riding (and being credited for) more than a team's declared distance are there and Martin's guidance (shared in my post above) points the way. At Easter I deliberately designated Selby as our team's finish, expecting we would get past there, but not being able to predict with how much time to spare. We would we riding on to York regardless. But not designating York offered more flexibility and meant no time was wasted arriving at our 'finish' early and losing the opportunity of extra miles.
If we got to Selby in very good time, I had various excursion options planned, to maximise the distance achieved by our team, going via Tadcaster or even Wetherby to York.
In the event we controlled at Selby at 0718 and headed straight for York. We would have been close to York 'Spoons by 0800 (our 24 hour moment) but 20 minutes earlier @Vorsprung on second wheel indulged in some spectacular A19 acrobatics and damaged his hand during the dismount/landing procedure. We rode on - chapeau to @Vorsprung who got patched/splinted in York hospital and caught his midday train.
With regard to a need for 'clarification' and regarding inferred slowness of the last two plus hours' ride, the key phrase you seem to have disregarded is "at least" or as per the rules "a minimum". IF a team only does 25km in that last period then, yes, the average speed will be slow. But I'd expect teams to be cracking on to their finish, and beyond if they have spare time. Of course this will depend on the team's motivation and ethos: are they just aiming to ride to York or are they trying to achieve as great a distance as they can?
Note the aim/goal of the Easter Arrow: "The aim of these events is to ride as a team, with the goal to cover the longest distance possible during 24 hours". The rules are clear "The team must ride until the end of the 24th hour." Why would one stop enjoying a 24 hour ride before the allotted time was up?

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Arrows rules
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2019, 11:32:18 am »
I've ridden many Fleche Velocios (France), Easter Arrows (UK), Summer Arrows, and Opperman All Day Trials (Oz) since 1993. I don't think there has been any of those fleches where the team hasn't stopped pedalling before the 24hrs actually elapsed, except for the only Easter Arrow I've ridden that wasn't validated! Frankly, it is only the pointy end of the teams that are pushing for every kilometre. Everybody else are setting targets and are happy to achieve them and then stop pedalling with some minutes to spare.

The rule of 'no stop longer than two hours' is another one that is very much ignored for most teams and only recently introduced to the British rules. The Aussies were the first country to run a fleche outside France and they laugh at that requirement.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Arrows rules
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2019, 01:47:41 pm »
I've ridden many Fleche Velocios (France), Easter Arrows (UK), Summer Arrows, and Opperman All Day Trials (Oz) since 1993. I don't think there has been any of those fleches where the team hasn't stopped pedalling before the 24hrs actually elapsed, except for the only Easter Arrow I've ridden that wasn't validated! Frankly, it is only the pointy end of the teams that are pushing for every kilometre. Everybody else are setting targets and are happy to achieve them and then stop pedalling with some minutes to spare.

The rule of 'no stop longer than two hours' is another one that is very much ignored for most teams and only recently introduced to the British rules. The Aussies were the first country to run a fleche outside France and they laugh at that requirement.
You are probably the most experienced Arrow rider on the planet, and still so young. And have exclusively ridden on routes which are achievable, by design, and in teams happy to achieve that, if necessary by spending more time stopped at controls if their speed is above expectation, and finishing 'early'.
I wonder how many teams on this year's Arrow stopped at a control (or elsewhere) for "longer than 2 hours"? I reckon very few. This rule is presumably there to deter people from designing a route where they ride 300km in 14 hours (say), kip for 5 dark hours, and then finish off with 100km in 5 hours. Do you think this schedule would be in the spirit of an Arrow?
Why do Aussies "laugh" at the AUK rule prohibiting stops of more than 2 hours? Since the aim/goal is to ride as far as possible in 24 hours, any team stopping that long (eg to sleep) is putting comfort above achievement - would have thought 'hardriding' Aussies would applaud such a rule, which of course is difficult to enforce in practice.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Arrows rules
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2019, 02:09:57 pm »
Look at the distances for the Fleche Opperman and notice how most of the teams ride 360-380km. Aussies don’t have the British hangup about passing 400km ‘to collect another point’. How many British teams go much beyond 430km for the Easter Arrow? They aren’t pushing for the maximum possible distance either.

Even the two Fleche Velocio that I’ve ridden had many teams finishing at the designated finish point (not town) before 24 hours.

Lay off the sarcasm. Plenty of folk (including other Aussies) have ridden more Arrows than me. Jim Hopper probably tops the list in the UK. It is highly likely that some Continentals have done them in more countries than me.

Edit: 9 x Opperman, 2 x Fleche Velocio, 4 x Summer Arrow, 2 x Easter Arrow + 1 Summer DNF + 1 Easter not homologated.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Arrows rules
« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2019, 09:21:58 am »
So if we arrive at york at 23:59. Lock up head in wait to get served and have receipts timed at 24:08 after starting time, do we get credited with the full distance? Or does some get knocked off? Obviously the time stamp will never be exactly 24 hours after starting, should it be before to prove distance covered in time or after to prove 'cycling until the end of the 24th hour' This is the clarification I would like. I think we arrived after 23hours and 40 minutes. By the time everyone controls and probably eats, 24 hours would be up so no continuing, but we have not ridden until the end of the 24th hour by your interpretation. I doubt many people would have pushed on to claim another few km,
   Eddington  81 miles  112 kms

Re: Arrows rules
« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2019, 03:38:04 pm »
So if we arrive at york at 23:59. Lock up head in wait to get served and have receipts timed at 24:08 after starting time, do we get credited with the full distance? Or does some get knocked off? Obviously the time stamp will never be exactly 24 hours after starting, should it be before to prove distance covered in time or after to prove 'cycling until the end of the 24th hour' This is the clarification I would like. I think we arrived after 23hours and 40 minutes. By the time everyone controls and probably eats, 24 hours would be up so no continuing, but we have not ridden until the end of the 24th hour by your interpretation. I doubt many people would have pushed on to claim another few km,
Think the rules and associated example (adapted) make the process clear:
"e.g. You start Friday at 09:00hrs.  It is 09:00hrs, you have ridden 420km but are in the queue for food 10m from the food counter. You must get to this counter, obtain proof of passage and note ‘420km’ [and I suggest the location] in your brevet card."
No normal rider/team captain would suggest riding past 'Spoons north to Haxby and back to make use of the last 20 minutes. But I had this as one of my options - if we achieved a moving speed of more than 23.2kph - which I was prepared to at least suggest to my team, anticipating a negative response. In the event we didn't make York till 0840 (24:40) partly by design (setting a 'stretch target') and partly because gratuitous stopping for ice creams 13 hours earlier played 'havoc' with my spreadsheet plan  ::-) .