Author Topic: Upside down EdeluxII moisture ingress  (Read 1315 times)

FifeingEejit

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Upside down EdeluxII moisture ingress
« on: May 28, 2019, 10:23:57 pm »
Spotted this the other week after a rather moist Audax (Auld Alliance) but just kept going with it until this week as I've been fettling with the bike.

Initially thought that it related to the rear light connector which on this is a screw that points up the way, I discovered that wasn't on very well which would I suppose have allowed moisture in.
Problem now is identifying if that's how it got in or if there's a sealing problem around the lens.
And of course getting it out of there...

Currently got it sitting in the house with the connector on a pack of silca gel, not sure if it'll do anything much




The bike it's off is currently a bottom headset bearing short of being usable, and I've got my 600 qualifier at the weekend so it might have to be the "other" bike.


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Kim

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Re: Upside down EdeluxII moisture ingrrss
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2019, 10:34:37 pm »
This is the problem with waterproof seals; they keep the water in.

The IQ-X (like most B&M lights) takes the other approach, of providing the water a path to escape.  The other day I noticed there's a dead fly stuck in one of mine.   :facepalm:

Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

FifeingEejit

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Re: Upside down EdeluxII moisture ingrrss
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2019, 10:40:15 pm »
The IQ-X (like most B&M lights) takes the other approach, of providing the water a path to escape.  The other day I noticed there's a dead fly stuck in one of mine.   :facepalm:

I discovered that when I drowned a Secula on the Long Dark Teatime, although the amount of water on that I was getting worried about the connectors on the hub shorting and bringing me to a blind halt in the middle of the Ettrick which had decided to flow down the road.

FifeingEejit

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Re: Upside down EdeluxII moisture ingress
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2019, 10:42:40 pm »
Oh, also I tried a bit of warmth earlier but all that did was transfer the mositure to the mirror when warm and then back to the lens once cooled, which also suggests it's not going to come out the open end of the rear light connector

Re: Upside down EdeluxII moisture ingress
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2019, 09:00:46 am »
if you want to dry the thing out you need to

1) provide an exit path for water vapour
2) if possible circulate air through the thing
3) warm the whole lamp up

Air can only be made to circulate if there is a single large opening or two smaller ones, preferably with forced air into the unit through one of them. Not sure how to open up an Edelux….?  BITD simply putting something in the airing cupboard (even with a single small opening) for a few days would do the trick but these days most homes don't have an airing cupboard. 

Suggestion; in sunny weather the inside of a car is like a small greenhouse and temperatures over 50C are soon seen; this might be a good enough to dry the lamp out, over several days, even if there is only a single small opening.

BTW condensation on the reflector just means that the reflector wasn't warm enough yet. More heat for longer ought to sort that out.

Note that there is no such thing as a bike light that is 'completely sealed'; IME there is always an airspace and always a small leak that allows pressure compensation; if this leak path sees liquid water when the lamp is cooling (and the air inside contracting, which is exactly what happens when you take a bike from inside the house into the rain) then water can get sucked in to the lamp.

IIRC such lamps have a five year warranty; you could just send it back.

cheers

FifeingEejit

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Re: Upside down EdeluxII moisture ingress
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2019, 01:27:46 pm »
if you want to dry the thing out you need to

1) provide an exit path for water vapour
2) if possible circulate air through the thing
3) warm the whole lamp up

Air can only be made to circulate if there is a single large opening or two smaller ones, preferably with forced air into the unit through one of them. Not sure how to open up an Edelux….?  BITD simply putting something in the airing cupboard (even with a single small opening) for a few days would do the trick but these days most homes don't have an airing cupboard. 

Suggestion; in sunny weather the inside of a car is like a small greenhouse and temperatures over 50C are soon seen; this might be a good enough to dry the lamp out, over several days, even if there is only a single small opening.

BTW condensation on the reflector just means that the reflector wasn't warm enough yet. More heat for longer ought to sort that out.

Note that there is no such thing as a bike light that is 'completely sealed'; IME there is always an airspace and always a small leak that allows pressure compensation; if this leak path sees liquid water when the lamp is cooling (and the air inside contracting, which is exactly what happens when you take a bike from inside the house into the rain) then water can get sucked in to the lamp.

IIRC such lamps have a five year warranty; you could just send it back.

cheers

cheers, the summer in the car possibility did occur to me, I just don't know which day this year that will be  :P
The unfortunate thing is it's now warm enough for the heating to be off so I can't try the radiator approach, so I'll probably just need to get back on it with the hot air blower

Returning it is of course the other option if all else fails, despite the moisture the light pattern is still decent, if a bit bobbly.

Re: Upside down EdeluxII moisture ingress
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2019, 01:37:14 pm »
I sent my Edelux back in 2014, near the end of its five year warranty, when rain on the Mille Cymru killed it.  It took about four weeks then came back fully working, and has been working fine ever since.  It just cost me the postage to SJS whom are the UK distributer I think.  It is now on my recumbent with the road bike having an Edelux II fitted.

Re: Upside down EdeluxII moisture ingress
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2019, 02:04:28 pm »
Given that the Edelux has a shaped beam, designed to work one way up, I'm surprised someone would mount it upside down.

FifeingEejit

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Re: Upside down EdeluxII moisture ingress
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2019, 02:09:32 pm »
Given that the Edelux has a shaped beam, designed to work one way up, I'm surprised someone would mount it upside down.
That's the upside down model, with the beam aligned for mounting upside down...
It's also got a different connection system for the rear light than the normal.

Needed due to a lack of front facing mounting on my fork. (although had I known that the IQ-X is rotatable and had a better output I might have got one of them instead)

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Re: Upside down EdeluxII moisture ingress
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2019, 05:32:22 pm »
Given that my two (right-way up) ones are fine in even the heaviest weather, and also how pernickety SON are about their products, I'd be tempted to return it to them to sort out.

FifeingEejit

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Re: Upside down EdeluxII moisture ingress
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2019, 05:43:50 pm »
Given that my two (right-way up) ones are fine in even the heaviest weather, and also how pernickety SON are about their products, I'd be tempted to return it to them to sort out.

TBH what's stopping me doing that straight off is the run of rides that I'm going to need light on and unwillingness to buy another light to cover the gap.
Coupled with the bike that it's on being set up with co-axial connectors and having not got round to doing it to the other bike yet, so I can't just swap the EdeluxII for the IQ-X... yet.

Also don't know what bike I'm going to be doing the tour of borders and galloway on as the focus' bottom headset bearing fell apart at the weekend, and I've not had a dispatch notification from the company I ordered replacements from despite selecting the "get it to me NOW" shipping option.
Not sure I want to be faffing with the soldering Iron tonight or not...

FifeingEejit

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Re: Upside down EdeluxII moisture ingress
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2019, 11:17:36 pm »
hm, seems there's no route out for the moisture, heat it up and it goes on the reflector which I don't seem to be able to get heat on with the hairdryer or hot air gun, and once it cools down it's all back on the lense. 

Wish I could find the e-mail telling me who I bought it from now!

Re: Upside down EdeluxII moisture ingress
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2019, 11:25:07 pm »
Doesn't matter, SJS is the UK dealer so you should be able to send it back under warranty direct through them. Ring them first for a warranty / returns number. That's how I returned mine for repair under warranty.

FifeingEejit

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Re: Upside down EdeluxII moisture ingress
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2019, 11:37:08 pm »
Doesn't matter, SJS is the UK dealer so you should be able to send it back under warranty direct through them. Ring them first for a warranty / returns number. That's how I returned mine for repair under warranty.

 :thumbsup:


FifeingEejit

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Re: Upside down EdeluxII moisture ingress
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2019, 11:49:30 pm »
E-mail off to SJS now.

Manged to kill the wiring for the rear light at somepoint when messing around with it either trying to get it back on the bracket or when trying to heat the moisture out of it.
Not got the connectors to make a new rear wiring loom so riding the bike with the B&M this weekend after all, not because I don't have battery rear lights I could use, but because I couldn't get any of them working...

Oh and all this is after having a nightmare with the headset bearings...
I fear the neighbours young bairn will have learnt some new words tonight.

Re: Upside down EdeluxII moisture ingress
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2019, 12:41:50 am »
many of the current B&M rear lights also have provision for bare wire connections.  Maybe you could adapt what you have to use those?

Maybe I've been lucky but (touch wood) I have had surprisingly few wiring problems in recent times; on the other hand maybe it is the fact that I had every imaginable problem years ago and there is now a load of extra corrosion protection I usually include when assembling everything....

cheers

FifeingEejit

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Re: Upside down EdeluxII moisture ingress
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2019, 12:44:42 am »
many of the current B&M rear lights also have provision for bare wire connections.  Maybe you could adapt what you have to use those?

Maybe I've been lucky but (touch wood) I have had surprisingly few wiring problems in recent times; on the other hand maybe it is the fact that I had every imaginable problem years ago and there is now a load of extra corrosion protection I usually include when assembling everything....

cheers
Aye will do that next week so I can use the b&m on that bike in the mean time, this weekend the heavier bike won't be too big a deal... I hope.

It was getting on 10pm with no solution and to get the b&m working I need to get a son coax connector on the feed wired, I'd already had the soldering iron out and failed to get the twin core to the rear light to take solder... Was just getting flustered, particularly with the headset issues... Can take the time on Monday or Tuesday with enough slack to raid autosave for any terminals I need.

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Re: Upside down EdeluxII moisture ingress
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2019, 01:07:16 am »
the SON coax connections are fine and dandy but they lack one ingredient that I favour; easy bodgeability.  When you need to do anything to them it is something of a faff.  Figure 8 wiring isn't as neat but it is much easier to deal with should that be required; you kind of feel you ought to have a fighting chance to remake a workable connection even by the roadside in the dark.


FWIW amongst my collection of useless crap I do have some vaguely useful items too. Amongst the latter I have the correct (and uber-expensive) crimp tool which is to be used with the 3.5mm crimp terminals that are supplied with B&M lights.  'Tis a thing of wonder, to see the strain relief tangs curl round, pierce the insulation and make a secondary connection like they should....once corrosion proofed, these connections are pretty good.   I have considered offering to make properly terminated leads of specific lengths up so that other folk can have reliable connections too.

cheers

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Upside down EdeluxII moisture ingress
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2019, 12:34:34 pm »
Maybe I've been lucky but (touch wood) I have had surprisingly few wiring problems in recent times; on the other hand maybe it is the fact that I had every imaginable problem years ago and there is now a load of extra corrosion protection I usually include when assembling everything....

the SON coax connections are fine and dandy but they lack one ingredient that I favour; easy bodgeability. 

Agreed, but on the other hand, the only wiring that's ever given me trouble has been a run of figure-of-8 stuff to a rear light, and that technically still works (it's just looking a bit fugly since I re-made some connections in a hurry after it got snagged in a bike parking incident).  All my SON coax has been utterly reliable, I reckon because its greater flexibility makes it less inclined to form loops that can snag on things as cable-ties slide around, though a frame with internal cable routing certainly helps.

It probably helps that I know how (and have the equipment to) make such connections properly, and tend to be fanatical about strain relief, particularly of trailing cables where they enter lights - if that breaks, you're stuffed.

TBH, the main barrier to bodgability isn't the cable, so much as the connectors.  Break the cable off a spade connector, and there's not much you can do about it other than remove the heatshrink and twist and tape wire round the remains, or attempt to use the spade to clamp bare wire against the terminal.  I'd classify both of those as type-2 fun.  At least those lego-brick things can be re-terminated at the roadside.  The main thing is to have enough slack to work with.  Or a length of pre-terminated cable in your bodging kit...


In terms of what's actually failed on my dynamo lighting setups it mostly seems to be the lights that cuase problems.  I've had:
1) The snagged cable mentioned above.  (Had to re-route to gain slack and fit a new spade connector.)
2) Cyo break at the plastic moulding where it bolts to the bracket.  (Upgraded to an IQ-X.)
3) The internal wiring between the two halves of a 4DToplight Multi shear at a soldered joint while changing the batteries.  (Trivially easy to repair with a soldering iron).
4) Loose spade connector fall off the back of a 4DToplight Multi while faffing with luggage.  (Tightened the spade with pliers and re-connected.)
5) The switch ring on the back of a Cyo crack in two when I rear-ended a Range Rover due to incompetent use of freshly-oiled rim brakes.  (Fortunately I'd kept the broken Cyo from (2) in case it came in useful and was able to swap it over.)

Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Upside down EdeluxII moisture ingress
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2019, 08:14:29 pm »
IIRC the coax used by SON is inherently more flexible than typical figure 8 cable, containing many more strands of thin conductor, a bit like wires used on instrument leads.  It is good stuff no doubt, but (as in many things cycling) it present a choice of 'proper preparation' vs 'fix it more easily when it breaks' I suppose.

Strain relief is super important, no doubt about it. And having extra length to the cable is essential if you want to reterminate the wires! 

I have been known to solder the rear light wires onto the back of cheap front lights on commuting bikes, figuring that crimps are liable to corrode before they need to be disturbed. Of course this leaves the wires themselves vulnerable to being flexed (depending on how far the solder has run up them) so more attention to strain relief is required.

FWIW I normally leave excess wire doubled-up somewhere so I have extra if required. If possible I also make the wire into a 'pigs tail' near the headlight so that it flexes easily as the steering turns.  Roadsters are often fitted with pressed steel mudguard stays and the wire to the rear light can be routed inside the mudguard stay, out of harm's way. Often I've dismantled the rear light and soldered directly to the circuit board inside too, in the name of reliability.  I've often wondered if, on a lightweight,  the wire could be routed inside a rack or a ~4mm steel tube could be used for one mudguard stay and the wiring similarly routed inside it; the run along the stay (or rack) often seems vulnerable regardless of what kind of wire it is exactly.

More than one way to skin a cat and all that.

cheers

FifeingEejit

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Re: Upside down EdeluxII moisture ingress
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2019, 08:48:11 pm »
The coax definitely seems to be more flexible and "higher quality" and more importantly less faf than figure of 8 and spades, but the obvious weakness is you should be able to go into any good auto parts store or halfrauds at a push and get more terminals and a crimp tool for them (the crush type not the type you get with the lights)
My thinking there is to run the main wire through the frame on the di2 channels to minimise exposure and the at a suitable location put a terminal in for the lights to plug in at either end, that does increase the terminal failure risk of course but makes it much easier to swap lights and wire sections for spares.

I think the figure of 8 wire melted when I was trying to see if Heat would demoisturise the lense, SJS say to return it though so once I've turned the house and my email boxes upside down to find the invoice to prove its less than 5 years old it'll be in the post...

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Re: Upside down EdeluxII moisture ingress
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2019, 09:04:19 pm »
the lamp may have a manufacturing date on it, in which case the need for a receipt seems moot.

FWIW a lot of cheap figure 8 cable is insulated with PVC. This is fine for bell wire etc but it wouldn't be allowed in (say) OEM quality automotive wiring, because it melts too easily. It is rarely much of an issue in bike dynamos, but it can be if you point a hot air gun at it!

cheers

FifeingEejit

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Re: Upside down EdeluxII moisture ingress
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2019, 09:09:24 pm »
Yes I think the insulation melted into the cores making contact with the ring terminal tricky, and soldering impossible.

I'm pretty sure it's multi core bell wire, a far cry from the 16a multi core I used to use on the cars.

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Re: Upside down EdeluxII moisture ingress
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2019, 12:57:57 am »
How did you get on?


For future reference if you put it in a bag of rice and leave it in the airing cupboard it will dry out. 1-3 weeks depending on how wet it is.

I have even revived my mobile phone (Samsung galaxy S4) using this method (after it went through a wash cycle :facepalm:).

FifeingEejit

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Re: Upside down EdeluxII moisture ingress
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2019, 12:59:39 am »
It lived in the sun porch over summer, it looked dry last time I looked at it, but I put an IQ-X on the bike, which I rather like and it has the bonus of being rotatable so it doesn't matter if the clamp is hanging from the bar or sticking up out the fork crown you can use the same unit.