Audax pet peeves!

[S2L]

Manotea's Ditchling Devil does its best to discourage drivers. The finish is 5 miles away from the start. The start has limited parking and closes at dusk, there's no parking right next to the finish. People are repeatedly advised not to drive to the start, it's London (albeit SW London - Wimbledon).

On the other hand, there is plenty of parking at the finish in Richmond park in the early mornings and it's free and most will finish well before it gets dark. I've seen people finishing Ditchling Devil in 7 hours, it's by far the "fastest" audax in the calendar, owing to the large number of entrants

[Karla]

Londoners are privileged, or have made a deliberate lifestyle choice so they don't have to own a car? 

I used to get the train to work, it cost about £11 return for a 25 minute journey each way, plus a bike ride at the end.  Then I was forced by management to drive, and the fuel cost less than half that.  Once I added up the invariable costs of vehicle ownership though, it wasn't saving me any money, even when I factored in more expensive train fares to visit places at the weekend.  Once I was driving to work and was paying the invariables of ownership so the variable cost of train tickets on top of that was a stretch so I was discouraged from hopping on the train even if I wanted to. 

The moral: travel is expensive.  Car ownership is just as expensive as any other way of doing it. 

I know a couple of northern organisers who have moved their starts closer to stations and later so they are reachable by train, and have advertised this to riders.  This is good 

[S2L]

The moral: travel is expensive.  Car ownership is just as expensive as any other way of doing it. 

I know a couple of northern organisers who have moved their starts closer to stations and later so they are reachable by train, and have advertised this to riders.  This is good 

I was looking at a train to Stockport, so that I could ride to Marple to then ride a BP 100... best fare £ 39, which seems a hell of a lot of money to spend on a BP. I'm pretty sure you can get a bargain ticket from Euston to Stockport (which is a lot further south)  for £ 12 if you book at the right time.

It's not that we don't try to make things easier for those who want to use the train, I have chosen a start location with a station after all, but if people choose not to use it, then what good is that?
I am here to run an event, not to change the world

[Kim]

Cause and effect. Because many rides are not practical to get to by train. If you adjusted the start time, you might get a lot more travelling by train.
And depends on what sort of riders you are targetting. Is it just club riders with families?

I run my event on a Saturday, there are trains available, and it's still 2% (which means 2 riders).

Possibly stupid question, but how do you know?  Most of the time I've travelled by train to an event, I don't think I've told the organiser (though on a couple of occasions the organiser has been aware of my plans via this forum already).

[bludger]

. But here in the UK, the process seems comparatively Byzantine. Most awkwardly in the way you can't seem to run an event unless you do rides which copy someone else's route for two entire seasons first.

This is completely untrue... read the organiser's manual.. .there is nothing byzantine about it

Compared to the Belgians it is complicated. There's certainly no such thing as a grade of organiser, route approvals, going through two seasons as grade x before upgrading, and so on. I'm informed that basically anyone can just make a 600 km route and everyone's off to the races. I will still go through the process.

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

This year's SR was, I think, my first car free one.  Rode to the start of the Upper Thames 200, the 300 was a permanent starting in Alresford and I rode to the start of that, the 400 (Auld Alliance) started at Haymarket Station so took the train for that, and the 600 (Border Raid) was near enough to Newcastle that I took the train up and back and rode to accommodation and onto the ride.  But that's partly because of my peeve about PBP years when you can't do PBP. 

CET Juniors' exams and exam results took May, June, and second half of August out of the calendar.  Which left hardly any rides available in the calendar to complete an SR series (train travel from London to Newcastle/Edinburgh is not cheap even when booking 12 weeks in advance).

Otherwise don't really have any Audax peeves.  If the start time, location, route isn't to my fancy, there's usually another ride in the calendar which will suit.  Roads with grass growing down the middle add character, and most riders' conversation is better than silence.  That's probably why I keep coming back year after year and riding events rather than entering Sportives or Time Trials or just heading out on my own...

[quixoticgeek]

. But here in the UK, the process seems comparatively Byzantine. Most awkwardly in the way you can't seem to run an event unless you do rides which copy someone else's route for two entire seasons first.

This is completely untrue... read the organiser's manual.. .there is nothing byzantine about it

Compared to the Belgians it is complicated. There's certainly no such thing as a grade of organiser, route approvals, going through two seasons as grade x before upgrading, and so on. I'm informed that basically anyone can just make a 600 km route and everyone's off to the races. I will still go through the process.

The Dutch system seems to be a middle ground between the two, partly because it's a small country, and there is an aim not to have one event on every weekend, and running multiple events on the same weekend is frowned upon. Hopefully tho I'm gonna have a 200k BRM on the calendar next year. (Tho i need to get home and check mail to confirm current status)

J

[S2L]

Compared to the Belgians it is complicated. There's certainly no such thing as a grade of organiser, route approvals, going through two seasons as grade x before upgrading, and so on. I'm informed that basically anyone can just make a 600 km route and everyone's off to the races. I will still go through the process.

It is not that complicated.

1) find a mentor
2) think about the audax you want to organise
2) Fill an application form

It's actually very simple.

I think the organiser grade is a good thing... last thing we need is a novice organising a 600 without appreaciating the complexities that longer distances imply.

For the record, AUK is larger and better than the Belgian equivalent (or than any other Audax organisation for waht that matters). Do the Belgians organise 500 calendar events every year?

[bludger]

Counting from the calendar they organise around 50/year.

http://files.webklik.nl/user_files/2009_12/85505/BRM%202019/Kalender1_2019.pdf

Since Belgium is approximately 12% the size of the UK in terms of square kilometres and 8x smaller in population, and very well connected by trains, it's about comparable. I should think lots of Belgians go and do Dutch and French rides too.

There aren't many complexities in the Belgian audaxes. In my 400 we kicked off at 1800 in a pub, had purely commercial and info controls until the midway point. at the Australian war memorial, which was just the organiser in his car with some water for the bottles, then about turned and didn't have another actual control until the end. Certainly it was more spartan and bare bones than one I'd done in the UK but that was the choice of the organiser to make, who was an experienced rider himself, and we were warned that it would be barebones going (I was urged to go to the supermarket before we started). He didn't have any volunteers supporting. Though the pub very kindly let me keep my sleep system in their garage until I got back and we got a slice of rice tart upon arrival.

[S2L]

Counting from the calendar they organise around 50/year.

http://files.webklik.nl/user_files/2009_12/85505/BRM%202019/Kalender1_2019.pdf

Since Belgium is approximately 12% the size of the UK in terms of square kilometres and 8x smaller in population, and very well connected by trains, it's about comparable. I should think lots of Belgians go and do Dutch and French rides too.

There aren't many complexities in the Belgian audaxes. In my 400 we kicked off at 1800 in a pub, had purely commercial and info controls until the midway point. at the Australian war memorial, which was just the organiser in his car with some water for the bottles, then about turned and didn't have another actual control until the end. Certainly it was more spartan and bare bones than one I'd done in the UK but that was the choice of the organiser to make, who was an experienced rider himself. He didn't have any volunteers supporting. Though the pub very kindly let me keep my sleep system in their garage until I got back and we got a slice of rice tart upon arrival.

There are x rated events here, but they are the minority. The majority have some kind of support, in the form of one or more village halls, volunteers, food...
If you want to organise x rated events, that is fine, but a purely x rated is a glorified group permanent and as an organiser I don't see how distributing cards in a car park and dealing with the validations that come by post will satisfy your thirst for "organising". Obviously it is easier, as you hardly have to do anything and the biggest job is probably to produce routesheet

[bludger]

I've no problem with doing that - in fact the organisers handbook encourages just getting basic things right and worrying more about village halls or whatever after a bit of practice.

My own ride will hopefully just have an HQ, commercial controls, a proper control in a national trust place (I know the head ranger etc so hopefully they will accommodate), some stamp controls and an info. It will be difficult to ask people to commit a day of their time 8 months in advance so the fewer moving parts required the more at peace my mind will be.

[Martin]

Compared to the Belgians it is complicated. There's certainly no such thing as a grade of organiser, route approvals, going through two seasons as grade x before upgrading, and so on. I'm informed that basically anyone can just make a 600 km route and everyone's off to the races. I will still go through the process.

It is not that complicated.

1) find a mentor
2) think about the audax you want to organise
2) Fill an application form

It's actually very simple.

I think the organiser grade is a good thing... last thing we need is a novice organising a 600 without appreaciating the complexities that longer distances imply.

For the record, AUK is larger and better than the Belgian equivalent (or than any other Audax organisation for waht that matters). Do the Belgians organise 500 calendar events every year?

That's my understanding, a new organiser needs to prove they have the knowledge and also resources (including human) before they are allowed to firstly run an event and then climb the distance ladder. It used to be the case that as well as an mentor a new org also needed a "character reference" from their cycling club or CTC DA, I did although I never used either to actually help on my events.

[S2L]

I've no problem with doing that - in fact the organisers handbook encourages just getting basic things right and worrying more about village halls or whatever after a bit of practice.

My own ride will hopefully just have an HQ, commercial controls, a proper control in a national trust place (I know the head ranger etc so hopefully they will accommodate), some stamp controls and an info. It will be difficult to ask people to commit a day of their time 8 months in advance so the fewer moving parts required the more at peace my mind will be.

That sounds quite a bit more than an x-rated... 

[Martin]

There are x rated events here, but they are the minority. The majority have some kind of support, in the form of one or more village halls, volunteers, food...
If you want to organise x rated events, that is fine, but a purely x rated is a glorified group permanent and as an organiser I don't see how distributing cards in a car park and dealing with the validations that come by post will satisfy your thirst for "organising". Obviously it is easier, as you hardly have to do anything and the biggest job is probably to produce routesheet

I can tell you, having run an X 200 for 8 years now bringing in 100 entries, there is still plenty of organisation required! With the exception of food at the start finish or half way round most events I've done this year could be described as X, and were all the better for it!

I'm not actually sure what defines an X event, is it that at intermediate controls riders are free to go and find a control anywhere rather than going to a designated commercial or volunteer-run control?

[S2L]

There are x rated events here, but they are the minority. The majority have some kind of support, in the form of one or more village halls, volunteers, food...
If you want to organise x rated events, that is fine, but a purely x rated is a glorified group permanent and as an organiser I don't see how distributing cards in a car park and dealing with the validations that come by post will satisfy your thirst for "organising". Obviously it is easier, as you hardly have to do anything and the biggest job is probably to produce routesheet

I can tell you, having run an X 200 for 8 years now bringing in 100 entries, there is still plenty of organisation required! With the exception of food at the start finish or half way round most events I've done this year could be described as X, and were all the better for it!

But these are not X.

X means postal finish, no village hall or HQ as such, and only commercial controls... in an X all you have to do is to check that paypal is working, produce a routesheet and check the route ahead, order the cards, show up on the day for half an hour and deal with the validations afterwards...

Unless we have a different idea of what X means.

[Greenbank]

On the other hand, there is plenty of parking at the finish in Richmond park in the early mornings and it's free and most will finish well before it gets dark.

It's also incredibly selfish to park in the Richmond Park car parks (which always fill up at the weekends) for ~7 hours with the intention of spending almost the entire time away from the park.

Anyway, I was giving an example of how an organiser does something to discourage car usage. Having start/finish controls 5 miles apart is one option. It's amazing how many people will happily sign up to ride 120 miles but make them ride 5 miles further to get back to where they started and they'll be outrage.

[Martin]

There are x rated events here, but they are the minority. The majority have some kind of support, in the form of one or more village halls, volunteers, food...
If you want to organise x rated events, that is fine, but a purely x rated is a glorified group permanent and as an organiser I don't see how distributing cards in a car park and dealing with the validations that come by post will satisfy your thirst for "organising". Obviously it is easier, as you hardly have to do anything and the biggest job is probably to produce routesheet

I can tell you, having run an X 200 for 8 years now bringing in 100 entries, there is still plenty of organisation required! With the exception of food at the start finish or half way round most events I've done this year could be described as X, and were all the better for it!

But these are not X.

X means postal finish, no village hall or HQ as such, and only commercial controls... in an X all you have to do is to check that paypal is working, produce a routesheet and check the route ahead, order the cards, show up on the day for half an hour and deal with the validations afterwards...

Unless we have a different idea of what X means.

X means

Shoestring event few or no facilities or AUK controllers according to the calendar.

Few being the operative word; riders have to go looking for refreshments and receipts at the intermediate controls


My X is a spoons start and finish so plenty of opportunity for food and (non EU) drink. I gave up on the idea of a postal finish after the first time as it was a considerable faff (especially as I was already worthy of instant validation / hand card back at the finish)

[S2L]

I gave up on the idea of a postal finish after the first time as it was a considerable faff (especially as I was already worthy of instant validation / hand card back at the finish)

It's a toss up between the hassle of spending 6 hours in a pub and the hassle of chasing riders for their POP... I guess the longer the event, the more it leans towards postal finish as the least worst

[hellymedic]

My last actual peeve is the hard work seemingly required to get into organising.

Chatting with a Belgium resident in my first 400, it seems pretty much any chancer can have a go at organising. But here in the UK, the process seems comparatively Byzantine. Most awkwardly in the way you can't seem to run an event unless you do rides which copy someone else's route for two entire seasons first. I understand the need for route quality control but that is a yawning gap between the cheerful Belgian have-a-go approach which seems to work, and ours.

I am still determined to get into organising, it's just a shame that it looks like a very tricky process in the UK.

Those of us involved in any way with LEL 2009 would appreciate the folly of having an organiser who had not completed a long brevet.

[S2L]

Those of us involved in any way with LEL 2009 would appreciate the folly of having an organiser who had not completed a long brevet.

I don't think the two are necessarily linked. I like the idea of growing distance in steps as an organiser, as every distance has new logistical challenges, which you can only tackle once you have ironed out the basic ones. Whether I have completed that distance myself is almost irrelevant. For example my 18 hour 400s are completely different from others'  27 hours 400s

[bludger]

Logistically I think Ian's (excellent) 600 km Willesden's Last Gasp would have been a great deal easier than e.g. Paul's Ditchling Devil.

Indeed in some ways I would expect it to be easier to organise a longer ride; you know it's probably the experienced riders turning up for the 400s and 600s, which start at daft o'clock and are for those who've been through gauntlets of 200s and 300s already. Presumably in a 200 which is going to start somewhere close to a city, you will need to risk assess for a greater range of abilities.

In Ian's 600 I was one of the last finishers in and didn't think I'd really suffered. But watching some 200s and even 100s many riders seem to get into trouble.

[Martin]

I gave up on the idea of a postal finish after the first time as it was a considerable faff (especially as I was already worthy of instant validation / hand card back at the finish)

It's a toss up between the hassle of spending 6 hours in a pub and the hassle of chasing riders for their POP... I guess the longer the event, the more it leans towards postal finish as the least worst

Or spending 6 hours preparing 200 SAE's and buying 200 stamps......

[S2L]

Indeed in some ways I would expect it to be easier to organise a longer ride; you know it's probably the experienced riders turning up for the 400s and 600s.

You would think so, but I recall a rider at MC1K that looked like he had enetered an event without meaning it... aside from being on the obese side, which doesn't bode well if you have to climb 50,000 feet, he didn't look very familiar with the all brevet card malarkey.

I wouldn't necessarily say that AUK members are easier to deal with than less experienced non members

[FifeingEejit]

X means

Shoestring event few or no facilities or AUK controllers according to the calendar.

Few being the operative word; riders have to go looking for refreshments and receipts at the intermediate controls

That seems to describe the vast majority of rides I've done, many without an X on the calendar facilities list.
Usually just get an HQ start.

Maybe southerners need more TLC. :StirPot

[bludger]

Belgians don't seem to mark theirs with an X either. Unless getting a water top up at the only manned control of the ride counts as mollycoddling!

http://www.randonneurs.be/page/23-oudenburg-400

Though looking at the documentation again it seems there was a warning that I had to wear reflective clothing in France, which I'd forgotten about... Fortunately Les Rozzers didn't come across me.