Author Topic: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'  (Read 4110 times)

Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2020, 05:04:36 pm »


*I believe doing lots of cycling puts me at risk of injury from putting all the 'aggro' on my knees and ankles. By contrast I can row for hours and hours and hours without problems, and I am of the view it is highly complementary to making one a good 'all rounder'. There is no 'bike fit' equivalent with rowing, you just put your feet on the machine in the right place and plug away.



The idea is that doing a lot of cycling will strengthen those part of your body that you do need for cycling, such as the ones you mention.
If you fail to do lots of cycling and row instead, what is going to happen is that you will get injured during the event, as opposed to before the event

It seems a bit odd and I have never heard of a Tour de France contender that trains by rowing rather than cycling, but you never know, you might set the next big thing in training...  ::-)
Rebecca Romero was a world champion at rowing then track cycling only 2 years apart, ironically changing from rowing to cycling because of persistent injuries.


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simonp

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Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2020, 05:37:53 pm »


*I believe doing lots of cycling puts me at risk of injury from putting all the 'aggro' on my knees and ankles. By contrast I can row for hours and hours and hours without problems, and I am of the view it is highly complementary to making one a good 'all rounder'. There is no 'bike fit' equivalent with rowing, you just put your feet on the machine in the right place and plug away.



The idea is that doing a lot of cycling will strengthen those part of your body that you do need for cycling, such as the ones you mention.
If you fail to do lots of cycling and row instead, what is going to happen is that you will get injured during the event, as opposed to before the event

It seems a bit odd and I have never heard of a Tour de France contender that trains by rowing rather than cycling, but you never know, you might set the next big thing in training...  ::-)
Rebecca Romero was a world champion at rowing then track cycling only 2 years apart, ironically changing from rowing to cycling because of persistent injuries.


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There's a video about Damir Martin (two time Olympic Silver Medallist single sculler) and in this he describes his aerobic base training - he uses a bicycle, largely to protect his back.

I would not be surprised if Romero was already doing a lot of cycling miles as a rower before she switched.

S2L

Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2020, 05:39:56 pm »


*I believe doing lots of cycling puts me at risk of injury from putting all the 'aggro' on my knees and ankles. By contrast I can row for hours and hours and hours without problems, and I am of the view it is highly complementary to making one a good 'all rounder'. There is no 'bike fit' equivalent with rowing, you just put your feet on the machine in the right place and plug away.



The idea is that doing a lot of cycling will strengthen those part of your body that you do need for cycling, such as the ones you mention.
If you fail to do lots of cycling and row instead, what is going to happen is that you will get injured during the event, as opposed to before the event

It seems a bit odd and I have never heard of a Tour de France contender that trains by rowing rather than cycling, but you never know, you might set the next big thing in training...  ::-)
Rebecca Romero was a world champion at rowing then track cycling only 2 years apart, ironically changing from rowing to cycling because of persistent injuries.


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There are similarities... they are both aerobic sports... so you can in principle start a career with one and finish with the other...  pretty sure she trained on the track ahead of competition, rather than on a boat though

Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2020, 06:01:35 pm »
If you've got a huge VO2max (as most athletic Olympians do) then you're going to do well at lots of aerobic sports. The next factor is build. A swimmer is going to make a poor runner due to the unnecessary bulky torso/arms. A long distance runner is going to make a poor sprint cyclist, etc. The adaptation from rowing to cycling doesn't take too long and you can go either way it seems.

Cross training is nothing new though, the majority of the time it's used because the primary sport is self limiting in terms of hours. Right now I can run for about 3 hours a week, once I'm back into it and have built up I can run anything up to 10 hours per week, but in the mean time I can augment my 3 hours of running with a few hours of swimming and a load of hours cycling, then throw in some gym work for strength and core. But the end goal will be to increase my weekly running hours as that (if done carefully) will be the best thing for avoiding running injuries.

The improved cardio vascular fitness from cross training is useful, but it's just there because doing too many hours of your primary sport per week would lead to overtraining or injury.
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mattc

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Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2020, 07:52:06 pm »
I haven't seen any cyclists convert to rowing (at high level I mean); are there some high-profile examples I've missed?

( We have at least 2 ex-GB rowers hoovering up local cycling trophies round these parts! )
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bludger

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Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2020, 08:52:33 pm »
Hamish Bond is probably a high profile guy in rowing - he's half of the Kiwi pair, the most successful rowing team in Olympic history as far as I know. He took a break the other year to do time trialling. He went back to rowing, now in an 8+. I think they'll get gold in Tokyo.

Did my third session in the plan today. I'm definitely buzzed from it but I'm not aching or whatever. I am glad I'm taking a week to 'pre load' before really getting going.
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Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2020, 09:38:19 pm »
I haven't seen any cyclists convert to rowing (at high level I mean); are there some high-profile examples I've missed?

( We have at least 2 ex-GB rowers hoovering up local cycling trophies round these parts! )
There was that Bradley Wiggins chap who was quite good at cycling and recently had a bash at rowing but didn’t quite make it.


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bludger

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Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2020, 10:04:43 pm »
I was actually there, I watched it happen. Poor guy.
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Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2020, 12:39:11 pm »
I haven't seen any cyclists convert to rowing (at high level I mean); are there some high-profile examples I've missed?

( We have at least 2 ex-GB rowers hoovering up local cycling trophies round these parts! )

I can see a few reasons... pro cycling provides a relatively lucrative career, compared with the almost zero money at pretty much any level in rowing, therefore it is more likely for rowers to get fed up with the long hours of training than for cyclists.

Outside of the top end athletes, there is also an entry barrier to rowing... you need to live close to a river where it is practiced, you need to join a club, you need to learn the technique, which is anything but trivial and finally you have to be good enough to make a team.
Compare that with cycling, where you can buy a bike and enter a race or time trial the day after

bludger

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Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2020, 10:19:42 am »
About 2 weeks into the programme.



Going for a proper ride on Sunday, obviously it's too early to judge the effectiveness of a programme (for me 3 months is the minimum) but we'll see what happens.

Weights later today. I'm using an ABA format 3x a week. One week is ABA, the next is BAB etc.

A:
3*5 squat
3*5 bench
1*5 deadlift
3* chinups to failure (so far I can do one...)

B: 3*5 squat
3*5 press (standing)
1*5 dead lift (once this starts getting too hard I'm going to move to 2*3 power cleans)
3* chinups to failure

Today is B.
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Zed43

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Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2020, 10:33:58 am »
Your weights scheme reminds me of Stronglifts 5x5 Do you, or anyone else, have experience with this as a way to increase strength for cycling?

bludger

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Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2020, 12:14:19 pm »
Well spotted, it's actually an adaptation of Starting Strength https://startingstrength.com/get-started/programs

My experience has been more with rowing. I don't really believe in 'strength for xyz', strong is strong in my book, whether you're riding bikes, rowing boats, moving hay with a pitchfork or whatever else. Especially when my emphasis is as much on preventing knackered joints and sinews etc as it is being fast.
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Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2020, 12:16:53 pm »
strong is strong in my book, whether you're riding bikes, rowing boats, moving hay with a pitchfork or whatever else.

Don't tell those bodybuilders they could make more money by winning the Tour de France...   :thumbsup:


bludger

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Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2020, 12:20:56 pm »
Bodybuilders don't really train for strength per se, rather they use special programmes (and, er, other 'methods'....) to stimulate hypertrophy i.e. to get huge, and then highly aggressive fat loss methods which just sound positively awful to endure. One of the most harrowing things I've ever read is https://startingstrength.com/article/how_to_lose_40_lb_of_fat_in_63_days , which just sounds like my idea of being in hell.

Quote
“I took weekly pictures and sent them to Rich. He would say, keep going, you can do it. I’d be like, ‘Really?’  Rich gave me three cheat meals over the course of nine weeks. This means that I could eat whatever I wanted to, for one single hour. I used to have food fantasies leading up to the cheat meal: would I have pizza and doughnuts? Vanilla cream from McMillan’s Bakery?  I’d tell the lady behind the counter, don’t wrap them, just hand them to me in a box. My 6-year old son and I would eat them in the parking lot, and get covered in powdered sugar when we were done. Then I would get pissed off because I would get full so fast that I would have to stop eating before I threw up. I lived for those cheat hours.

....

“In addition, I added in red cabbage. Raw red cabbage with Splenda and cinnamon sprinkled on top. Awesome. I needed that crunch, and broccoli didn’t do it. Cabbage did the trick. My wife would make Tilapia fish for me for my last food meal of the day. I started counting the days down until the show like a prisoner within weeks of release. I was miserable, but I knew that hell or high water, I was going to Florida. Rich would text me encouraging messages. The one that I remember most was him texting, “You are tougher than the process.” That spurred me on even more. I mean, no matter how hungry or tired you are, you just do it, man. You stop at Dunkin’ Donuts at night and get a triple espresso and then you eat some fish and then start pedaling that damn bike. You aren’t living in a garbage dump in India with your whole family wondering if you will ever eat again. You chose to do this stupid thing, so just do it. And you do – you start pedaling and pretty soon that hour is done and then the shower is done and the next morning comes and you are pedaling again. It seems never ending.”


Obviously a bodybuilder will be a strong person but you can be hugely strong without actually being super big by any stretch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QpyC5P1E0E

If these guys rode bikes, they would be fast.
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Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2020, 03:31:00 pm »
Well spotted, it's actually an adaptation of Starting Strength https://startingstrength.com/get-started/programs

My experience has been more with rowing. I don't really believe in 'strength for xyz', strong is strong in my book, whether you're riding bikes, rowing boats, moving hay with a pitchfork or whatever else. Especially when my emphasis is as much on preventing knackered joints and sinews etc as it is being fast.

Don't use words like strong or strength places like the TT forum.   I good cyclist is fit not strong.   It's an aerobic sport.

S2L

Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2020, 04:32:45 pm »
A sledge dog has a VO2 max of around 250 ml/min kg, which is roughly three times as high as a fully doped Tour de France winner... and there is no way the latter can pull a sledge anywhere near as far or fast...
Yet, if you put the Siberian Husky on a bike, he might turn out to be quite useless at it

I would stick to training on a bicycle if that's what you need for your race

bludger

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Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2020, 04:48:37 pm »
People used to be the same about soldiering and rowing. Barbell strength training was scoffed at, weighted marching and rowing boats only was the order of the day.

Now the good programmes have a massive focus on strength training. There's even a special 'mobile gym' developed for the US special forces that folds up into a container for deployment to combat zones. https://deployedresources.com/equipment/gyms/containerized-gym-unit/

Cycling has been historically very behind the curve on how to effectively train. MTB and track are probably the exceptions, both of which are well known for their emphasis on off-bike training. See e.g. Chris Hoy's huge focus on barbell training. https://www.coachmag.co.uk/leg-workouts/7638/how-british-track-cycling-superstar-jason-kenny-trains-his-legs

All too common from the long distance sorts are recurrent injuries which I am convinced stem from being too weak. For example not having the strength to stay on the bike, for days on end, with knee and shoulder joints worn out from bearing all the aggro. We'll see how the programme goes.
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Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2020, 04:58:56 pm »


Cycling has been historically very behind the curve on how to effectively train. MTB and track are probably the exceptions, both of which are well known for their emphasis on off-bike training. See e.g. Chris Hoy's huge focus on barbell training.

You realise that what Chris Hoy did has nothing in common with the kind of cycling you want to do...

Even by the loose definitions of "aerobic" used by BC track team (anything over 1 minute), sprint is not aerobic.
He trained to put down 2,000 Watt for 10 seconds, you want to put down 150-200 watt for a few days...
Chris Hoy wouldn't have stood a chance to get to the sprint of a road race, he would have been dropped miles earlier

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2020, 05:05:15 pm »
I reckon Hoy would be a good time triallist. But see also boxing. Boxing is an aerobic sport, we all know that it's all about wearing the other guy down over a long series of rounds, they too do a ton of not-punching-people training.

And of course from my own pre-cycling background, with rowing races are either about 20 mins long for 5k heads or 6-7 mins long for 2k regattas. Strength training outside of boats is a proven winner. Broadly in the boat race it's the heaviest crew that wins.
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Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2020, 05:38:00 pm »
I would be surprised if the same training regime that works 10 seconds or for 6 or 7 minutes will work 72 hours. I would also say your weights regime seems rather skewed to upper body. There is definitely a big overlap between rowing and track cycling (massive quads). Endurance events (cycling and running) seem to favour individuals with lower bmi.


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bludger

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Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2020, 05:43:44 pm »
Bonds doing road TT not track

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/119529663/rower-hamish-bond-wins-time-trial-after-making-surprise-return-to-cycling

Doing TTing as a side hobby and beating world tour pros lol, weighing in at 93 kg
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Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2020, 05:45:45 pm »
I reckon Hoy would be a good time triallist.

Based on what?
I'd be surprised if he can do a sub 24 minute 10 mile, even with all the gear.
Have you ever seen sprinters training? A 1 hour training session on the track is made out of a lot of chatting and banter in between a number of savage short efforts... 2-3 laps, then back to laughing and banter...
Incidentally, it is the same as track and field sprinters... a lot of laughing and joking around, followed by a small number of short violent bursts...
Basically, it is the exact opposite of what makes for good time trialling... and that is even before we look at the numbers... I am pretty sure Hoy's VO2 max is similar to that of an average club rider. Time trialling is pretty much all down to having a huge VO2 max, same as rowing, cross country skiing etc...
That doesn't mean that if you train on a Concept 2 you will do a sub 20 minute 10 mile TT

bludger

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Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2020, 05:48:20 pm »
I meant that he'd have to train for it but I expect with a 12 week 'conversion course' he'd be a speedy guy indeed.
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Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2020, 05:50:47 pm »
I meant that he'd have to train for it but I expect with a 12 week 'conversion course' he'd be a speedy guy indeed.

I think you are wrong... he will be very average... of course that depends what speedy means to you. Anything above 20 min is nothing special for someone who is an athlete.

Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2020, 06:39:05 pm »
Bonds doing road TT not track

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/119529663/rower-hamish-bond-wins-time-trial-after-making-surprise-return-to-cycling

Doing TTing as a side hobby and beating world tour pros lol, weighing in at 93 kg
It is impressive, though to be fair nz population is about the same as Birmingham, he won it in 2018 too when he was a cyclist before he was a rower. The world tour rider he beat is58kg I can imagine he is more of gc rider.


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