Author Topic: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'  (Read 5468 times)

Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2020, 07:17:03 pm »
A few points here.

Hamish Bond has a big engine and chose to specialise in TT.   He was heavily aero optimised and spent a huge amount of time with Aerocoach dialling his position in.   Most pros don’t spend anywhere near enough time on this so there were a lot of gains there.   In UK TTs he didn’t exactly wipe the floor with opposition.

On weight, it’s fine being 90+ kgs in flat TTs when you push a huge amount of power.   This is a thread about ultra racing, though.   Imagine lugging those 90kgs up and down hills for 10 days.  James Hayden runs low 70kgs which is heavier than when he was a junior road racer, but optimal for what he does.

I got myself down to 60kgs the last few years but will run a bit heavier this year as I need some reserves. 

Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2020, 07:35:42 pm »
And of course, resistance training is very good for you overall, not just in niche things like riding a bike.

Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #52 on: February 21, 2020, 08:25:23 pm »
As well as Hamish Bond being someone who spent an entire year trying to be the best possible TTer he could be (aiming at Commonwealths before returning to rowing), George Bennet is a pure climber. He also had major surgery this off season: https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/george-bennett-ive-essentially-had-three-ribs-removed/

Fundamentally though, there is a level of strength beyond which you will not improve your on-bike performance. Here is a blog that tries to estimate that level of strength for the different cycling disciplines: https://blog.trainerroad.com/coach-chads-strength-training-recommendations-for-cyclists/

Even Mark Riptoe says that if you want to be a competitive cyclist (or runner), you shouldn't follow his plans:
https://startingstrength.com/article/why-you-should-not-be-running
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Quite literally, the more you run, the better you are at running and the worse you are at being strong.

Your training regime may make you a more rounded athlete, and it might make you more robust than someone who spends all their time on a bike. In ultra racing, robustness is going to help to ensure you finish the event, but if it involves adding mass that doesn't help you pedal your bike or stay on your bike, then it's going to make you slower.  If your training regime is aimed at increasing your chances of finishing, and you accept the trade off of increasing the time you take is your aim, I see nothing wrong with your plan. If you want to go as fast as possible for an ultra event, I'd spend more time on the bike, and less time in the weight room.

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2020, 08:47:49 pm »
A more nuanced understanding of rippetoes programming methods can be gleaned from http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/mark-rippetoe-q-and-a/23687-basic-barbell-training-endurance-athletes.html where he advises 2 days under the bar (i.e. squatting) a week for 'committed endurance athletes'.

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I would include 2x/week under the bar: 1. squat, deadlift, and chins 2. squat, clean, press.

Which is what I will eventually progress to after a few months. You can DL for every workout for a while. I'll stick with 3*/week throughout this training block for sure though.

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the vast majority of them [cyclists] will not do anything that does not involve the recreational activity itself. They are not interested in improved performance in the sense that a competitive athlete is, and for that reason it is usually pointless to try to make them train outside their primary activity."

Quoted without comment  ;D
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Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2020, 10:13:28 pm »
The quote about 2 days under the bar was aimed at someone asking about rowing.

I lift. I think it will improve my CX performance, but it will also help me be a more rounded human and protect my bones. If I hit the suggested level, I will go into maintenance mode and apply the time elsewhere. Were I planning on racing for days at a time, I would be paying more attention to coaches of pro cyclists than of Mark Riptoe.


Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2020, 10:39:07 pm »
The ability to work a muscle for days on end continuously is almost certainly a mixture of mitochondrial increase, FFA adaptation, fibre bypertrophy and the Number of muscle fibres which allows you to switch off more muscle fibres to allow them to rest.

I think specific weight training is a seriously sensible idea. Just because people do not generally do it is no reason to say it will not work. Most “sports science” and coaching has about as much scientific basis as Gwyneth Paltrow and her vaginal eggs. That is, a lot of endorsement but no randomised for troller trials with adequate power and proper outcome measures.


bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #56 on: February 21, 2020, 11:24:19 pm »
It isn't even just about 'moving the legs', one of my big worries is getting the likes of shermer's neck. I'm hoping that being able to dead lift good amounts of heavy things, coupled with the pressing movements and the chin ups might put me in good stead too.

Too often people think cycling is a 'legs sport', for my money it's just as important to have the whole-body strength to be on the handlebars with minimal aching and paining from the other half too.  He doesn't go into it but JMH mentions dead lifts and much else as being crucial to preventing SN. https://www.jamesmarkhayden.uk/stories/shermers-neck-and-how-i-dealt-with-it
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Phil W

Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #57 on: February 22, 2020, 01:18:27 pm »
He doesn't go into it but JMH mentions dead lifts and much else as being crucial to preventing SN. https://www.jamesmarkhayden.uk/stories/shermers-neck-and-how-i-dealt-with-it

Actually what he says (my bold) in the linked article is

“You don’t need to be doing bicep curls, butt planks, deadlifts, hollow body holds or kettlebell movements“

I suffered Shermer’s Neck on WAWA 2016 at 1850km, eventually retiring at just over 2,000km and just over 100km left as I could not ride safely, with a lack of forward vision. I wasn’t the only one on WAWA struggling with Shermer’s but I was the only one it came on early enough and deteriorated enough that I had to stop. About 10% of the field were affected.

Body weight exercises
Neck stretches
Swimming

General all over strength conditioning have helped me. IMO. Bear in mind my longest ride since 2016 is 1,000km where even before conditioning I never had issues. But I would say you do not need to do anything beyond body weight stuff for resilience.

There’s also changes I made on the road bike to ensure my neck was better aligned with the body when riding to reduce the stress it’s under.  The faster you can ride and more time off the bike the better obviously in terms if Shermer’s.

But I’m trying to go recumbent full time for long distance now having jumped between recumbent and road bikes over the past three years. My recumbent eliminates the neck and other discomfort issues entirely.

Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #58 on: February 22, 2020, 03:36:37 pm »
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Your body is not built to deliver the required strength so just riding a bike isn’t enough. You need to be forcing your body to be stronger.
We can all selectively quote it one of the worlds great endurance cyclists says riding a bike is not enough.

Genetically we vary tremendously. Some people can stay slim and fit on no exercise and others need to train everyday and still have a constant battle to stay fit. For some HIIT works, for others long steady may well be better with intermittent strength training.

Good for bludger to challenge the standard paradigm of training and do something he feels HIS body will respond to best. 

Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2020, 04:17:32 pm »
Much as I like cycling long distances, I also want to remain generally healthy for a good long time.  As I am ageing ( :(), I do weights 2 or 3 times a week, along with Pilates and other core exercises. Whilst this may have nothing directly to do with endurance training, the general health advice is that these sorts of activities help to preserve bone strength and muscle mass.  I no longer have any neck, arm, wrist or back issues on long rides.

I mix this up with stuff on the bike and trainer, and running on alternate days.  I guess the only issue might be if you end up carrying extra muscle mass, especially in the upper body.  Mind you, Kurt "Tarzan" Searvogel didn't seem to have a problem having a "sturdy" physique  ;D (mind you I don't remember him doing much in the way of hill-climbing).


Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #60 on: February 22, 2020, 05:32:31 pm »
It isn't even just about 'moving the legs', one of my big worries is getting the likes of shermer's neck. I'm hoping that being able to dead lift good amounts of heavy things, coupled with the pressing movements and the chin ups might put me in good stead too.

Too often people think cycling is a 'legs sport', for my money it's just as important to have the whole-body strength to be on the handlebars with minimal aching and paining from the other half too.  He doesn't go into it but JMH mentions dead lifts and much else as being crucial to preventing SN. https://www.jamesmarkhayden.uk/stories/shermers-neck-and-how-i-dealt-with-it
That's all reasonable, but one of the other things that he said was that he needed a good bike fit, and he put effort into refining his position. That means you need time on the bike. I can fully understand how mixing weights with cycling makes sense, but it feels like you are training for rowing and doing cycling as cross training, rather than the other way around. Erg rowing and most of your weight lifting is entirely symmetrical, but cycling is something that is fundamentally asymmetrical, which will impose different demands on your body (also, rowing is lower cadence and higher force). I wonder if this is why you get injured when riding but are fine when you are training for rowing.

Good luck - it's an interesting experiment. :)

Phil W

Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #61 on: February 22, 2020, 05:57:49 pm »
Quote
Your body is not built to deliver the required strength so just riding a bike isn’t enough. You need to be forcing your body to be stronger.

We can all selectively quote it one of the worlds great endurance cyclists says riding a bike is not enough.
Selectively quoting is exactly the right thing to do where the assertion is made that James says dead lifts are crucial to preventing Shermer's Neck.  There's no other part of that linked post that mentions deadlifts so why include it?

No one denies all round strength work off the bike helps with resilience. But James does not make a specific claim about deadlifts being essential for preventing Shermer's.  Least not in the linked post. We are also in the territory of confirmation bias when it comes to preventing Shermer's neck. I'm as guilty as anyone when it comes to that.

All over strength work is good, in general,  no one disputes that.

Phil W

Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #62 on: February 22, 2020, 06:39:51 pm »
Here's what I essentially did with my bike fit on the road bike after WAWA 16. Consider the red image how my body and neck alignment ended up with a long peak cap,and on drops due to headwinds on WAWA. So aim is blue to have the neck in line with back which in my experience has meant much less load on the neck muscles.


bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #63 on: February 24, 2020, 10:10:14 am »
That's all reasonable, but one of the other things that he said was that he needed a good bike fit, and he put effort into refining his position. That means you need time on the bike. I can fully understand how mixing weights with cycling makes sense, but it feels like you are training for rowing and doing cycling as cross training, rather than the other way around. Erg rowing and most of your weight lifting is entirely symmetrical, but cycling is something that is fundamentally asymmetrical, which will impose different demands on your body (also, rowing is lower cadence and higher force). I wonder if this is why you get injured when riding but are fine when you are training for rowing.

Good luck - it's an interesting experiment. :)
I've yet to be injured while cycling thankfully. Worst I've had so far is road rash from falling off in a cross race. I did used to get ankle pains on rides longer than 300km but fitted some pedal axle extenders which have worked marvelously.

I am actually riding the bike for 80 minutes or so a day anyway on the commute so it's not like I'm not getting time in on the bike.

I think it is important to note that athletes going for the podium will keep their training strategies under their hats. They could well be doing all sorts of things (and perhaps just as important *not* doing all sorts of things) which they won't disclose.
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Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #64 on: February 24, 2020, 11:21:21 am »
That's all reasonable, but one of the other things that he said was that he needed a good bike fit, and he put effort into refining his position. That means you need time on the bike. I can fully understand how mixing weights with cycling makes sense, but it feels like you are training for rowing and doing cycling as cross training, rather than the other way around. Erg rowing and most of your weight lifting is entirely symmetrical, but cycling is something that is fundamentally asymmetrical, which will impose different demands on your body (also, rowing is lower cadence and higher force). I wonder if this is why you get injured when riding but are fine when you are training for rowing.

Good luck - it's an interesting experiment. :)
I've yet to be injured while cycling thankfully. Worst I've had so far is road rash from falling off in a cross race. I did used to get ankle pains on rides longer than 300km but fitted some pedal axle extenders which have worked marvelously.
I thought that this rowing strategy was injury avoidance because you said:
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I believe doing lots of cycling puts me at risk of injury from putting all the 'aggro' on my knees and ankles.

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I am actually riding the bike for 80 minutes or so a day anyway on the commute so it's not like I'm not getting time in on the bike.
That's a fairly chunky commute if it's at intensity. Is that the same bike/position as you ride on your longer rides?

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I think it is important to note that athletes going for the podium will keep their training strategies under their hats. They could well be doing all sorts of things (and perhaps just as important *not* doing all sorts of things) which they won't disclose.
It's reasonable to assume that they are doing more than is in the public domain, but while they almost certainly make some activities private (or just don't upload them if they are gym based), I can't imagine that they are falsifying rides to put onto strava. ;)

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #65 on: February 24, 2020, 11:33:11 am »
I thought that this rowing strategy was injury avoidance because...

It's from seeing that lots of cyclists get injuries doing all their training on bikes. My idea is to avoid contracting such a malaise by doing hard efforts off the bike, particularly off the turbo trainer which I am convinced encourages bad form habits such as gurning the joints in funny ways, thrashing from side to side on a bike that's locked in place like it's set into cement. Whereas the ergo spreads the aggro out all over the body I am convinced that indoor cycling is just like pointing a heat gun at your knees and ankles and sticking it on full blast. 
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That's a fairly chunky commute if it's at intensity. Is that the same bike/position as you ride on your longer rides?
Nah it's on a steel fixed gear bike at a 44/17 ratio. I don't go in a hurry because it's on a moderately hazardous route if care isn't taken. The position isn't radically different to the 'good bike', I use the same pedal extenders on it for sure.

I take a longer route back in the evenings (often after training) as it's much more hazardous in the dark.
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Phil W

Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #66 on: February 24, 2020, 06:47:29 pm »
If it’s 80 mins total, it’s only 40 mins each way, so not that chunky a commute, more like in the sweetspot

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #67 on: February 24, 2020, 06:51:53 pm »
If it’s 80 mins total, it’s only 40 mins each way, so not that chunky a commute, more like in the sweetspot

If doing zone 2/UT2 work it's better to do one 80-minute ride than two separate 40-minute rides. Commuting riding can be a bit inconsistent for training based on traffic, hills etc.

Phil W

Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #68 on: February 24, 2020, 06:55:54 pm »
I was referring to sweetspot in terms of commute time rather than training.  Mind my only sub 8 hour elapsed 210km audax was when the only “training” I was doing was such a 5 day a week commute and one long ride at the weekends. Then the following year I took up audax properly and more regularly and got slower!

zigzag

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Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #69 on: February 24, 2020, 07:21:20 pm »
It's from seeing that lots of cyclists get injuries doing all their training on bikes. My idea is to avoid contracting such a malaise by doing hard efforts off the bike, particularly off the turbo trainer which I am convinced encourages bad form habits such as gurning the joints in funny ways, thrashing from side to side on a bike that's locked in place like it's set into cement. Whereas the ergo spreads the aggro out all over the body I am convinced that indoor cycling is just like pointing a heat gun at your knees and ankles and sticking it on full blast. 

training on a turbo feels similar to being on a bike, it's rocking side to side almost the same way (at least my trainer does), plus it sits on a soft trainer mat which further increases rocking. some trainers are rock solid (e.g. wattbike), but when i trained on one there was no problems with joints or anything else. totally unsubstantiated "reasons" out of thin air.

some people will feel pains, but that's usually due to bad fit or body misalignments, just like it would be on a regular bike.

Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #70 on: February 24, 2020, 09:56:19 pm »
I’m currently doing 10 second sprint drills once a week.  This has me accelerating from 50rpm to 150rpm.  There’s no noticeable rocking around and the turbo doesn’t move.   Maybe I’m doing it wrong.

Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #71 on: February 25, 2020, 06:13:38 pm »
A clubmate has made something involving tennis balls and a board to go under his turbo to accomodate rocking.  The tennis balls might be cut in half, I can't remember the details.  I think you can buy things that perform the same function.

My main question though is do many people really get injured training on a bike?  I wasn't aware it was an issue.  It must be a lot fewer than, say running or doing weights.

Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #72 on: February 25, 2020, 07:20:26 pm »
There are all sorts of plans on the web for "rocker plates".
I suspect people get injured because of fit or just overuse rather than because the bike doesn't move.

Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #73 on: February 25, 2020, 07:38:47 pm »
I got injured demonstrating my prowess on rollers when slightly inebriated. Tennis balls would have helped if I could have surrounded the area a few inches deep.


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Re: Training plans for 'ultra endurance'
« Reply #74 on: February 26, 2020, 10:01:34 am »
A clubmate has made something involving tennis balls and a board to go under his turbo to accomodate rocking.  The tennis balls might be cut in half, I can't remember the details.  I think you can buy things that perform the same function.

My main question though is do many people really get injured training on a bike?  I wasn't aware it was an issue.  It must be a lot fewer than, say running or doing weights.

My worst injuries have been through falling off.   It's a low impact sport in that way.

That said I have spent a fair amount of time with physios and my osteopath.   None of these have been what I would call injuries but imbalances here and there around the hips, lower back and the odd knee problem.   I did get Shermer neck in my first 24hr but that was down to not spending enough time in TT position in training - it hasn't happened since.   I have known a lot of runners with injuries, though.

I don't believe the turbo causes any particular issues.   When I had my broken hand I was doing 10-12hrs a week with noticeable issues other than a deep desire to be outside.