Author Topic: Controls + Distances  (Read 3497 times)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #75 on: August 21, 2019, 09:31:10 am »
So... we have 42 hours out and 48 hours back. Can someone whose brain is still workable figure out where the extra 6 are distributed?

Extra 6? The time limits are 84 hours for the fast guys and 90 (42+48) for the rest.

I think this is based on the confusion many have over how ACP do cut off times for controls. Ignoring the special cases for controls in the first 60km, a control from 60-600km has a speed of 15kph. Meaning that if the Brest control was on the dot of 600. Then the cut off would be exactly 40 hours after starting. This would leave 50 hours to do the remaining 600km, meaning 12kph, for an average overall of 13.3kph.

*BUT* it gets very confusing with how the times for the controls after the 600 mark are calculated, and I've yet to fully grasp the algorithm. What is more it gets even weirder for things like the final control. That is at 1175km (near enough to make the maths easy), so at 13.3kph, it should close at 88:04, *BUT* the route is over distance, at closer to 1220, meaning that you have 45km to do after the last control. So if the control closes at 88:04, you'd have to average over 22.5kph to finish in 90 hours.

This makes Grams' question regarding times very much valid, and understandable. Because the route is over distance, because the min speed is not uniform, and because the ACP is the ACP. Unless you look at the official documents from the ACP, then it's very hard to work out closing times for an of the controls...

Does that make sense?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #76 on: August 21, 2019, 09:51:56 am »
So... we have 42 hours out and 48 hours back. Can someone whose brain is still workable figure out where the extra 6 are distributed?

Extra 6? The time limits are 84 hours for the fast guys and 90 (42+48) for the rest.

I think this is based on the confusion many have over how ACP do cut off times for controls. Ignoring the special cases for controls in the first 60km, a control from 60-600km has a speed of 15kph. Meaning that if the Brest control was on the dot of 600. Then the cut off would be exactly 40 hours after starting.

That's the point, they don't apply this rule like this. For 2011 it was on the dot of 15kph for just the first 310km (to Fougeres) and then it drops slowly until Brest where it goes up again and then is up/down for each leg on the way back (but still less than 15kph).

(control, distance, open time close time, cumulative min average speed, leg min average speed)

Start   0   0:00:00   0:00:00      
Mort   140   4:27:00   9:20:00   15.00   15.00
Vil   221   6:52:00   14:44:00   15.00   15.00
Foug   310   9:57:00   20:40:00   15.00   15.00
Tint   364   11:45:00   24:38:00   14.75   13.58
Loud   449   14:49:00   31:08:00   14.42   13.04
StNdP   493   16:23:00   34:31:00   14.25   13.00
Carhaix   525   17:32:00   36:59:00   14.17   12.96
Brest   618   21:08:00   43:19:00   14.25   14.67
Carhaix   703   24:24:00   49:51:00   14.08   13.00
StNdP   736   25:47:00   52:24:00   14.04   12.92
Loud   782   27:42:00   55:56:00   13.96   13.00
Qued   841   30:23:00   60:37:00   13.83   12.58
Tint   867   31:34:00   62:47:00   13.79   12.00
Foug   921   34:01:00   67:04:00   13.71   12.58
Vil   1009   38:01:00   74:12:00   13.58   12.33
Mort   1090   42:00:00   79:56:00   13.63   14.13
Dreux   1165   46:45:00   85:12:00   13.67   14.21
Fin   1230   49:00:00   90:00:00   13.67   13.54

(You'll see the overall average speed doesn't drop steadily and it also increased a tiny bit in the last few stages).

All one can do is keep an eye on the brevet card for when the next control closes (adjusting for your own start time) and make sure you arrive with enough time in hand (especially if you want/need a sleep there). If you've got multiple days to go then you need to build up a time buffer each day so that you can get whatever sleep you need (everyone is individual).
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #77 on: August 21, 2019, 10:04:32 am »
*BUT* it gets very confusing with how the times for the controls after the 600 mark are calculated, and I've yet to fully grasp the algorithm. What is more it gets even weirder for things like the final control. That is at 1175km (near enough to make the maths easy), so at 13.3kph, it should close at 88:04, *BUT* the route is over distance, at closer to 1220, meaning that you have 45km to do after the last control. So if the control closes at 88:04, you'd have to average over 22.5kph to finish in 90 hours.

Having looked at it before what I believe they do is do 15kph until a certain point (much less than 600km as even the 364km control from 2011 is below 15kph) and then the rest of the controls times are designed to absorb the over distance portion of the ride so that you don't get into this situation. I'm not sure there's an exact algorithm to do this, but my guess is it is something along the lines of this:-

For example, a control at 1165km of a 1230km ride with the first 310km taken at 15kph would be:-

310/15 = 20h40m leaves 855km of 920km to be done in 69h20m.

855 * 69h20 / 920 = 64h26 and add on the 20h40 to give 85h06 for 1165km. (It was actually 85h12 according to my 2011 brevet card so this is pretty close)

That means that the final 65km (1165km to 1230km) has a much fairer 4h54 time limit (which gives a much fairer minimum average speed for that leg of 13.27kph).

[EDIT] The above is accurate to within 20 minutes for the majority of the controls for 2011 timings.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #78 on: August 21, 2019, 10:43:25 am »
Thanks far fetched, that’s what I was after.

AIUI it’s rhe brevet card time that matters*. At Villhaines the mat is at the exit!

(* does it? Does anyone know how strictly enforced their policy on refusing validation if intermediate controls are out of time?)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #79 on: August 21, 2019, 10:45:17 am »
Thanks far fetched, that’s what I was after.

AIUI it’s rhe brevet card time that matters*. At Villhaines the mat is at the exit!

(* does it? Does anyone know how strictly enforced their policy on refusing validation if intermediate controls are out of time?)

My understanding is they are strict on it, unless you've got a really good excuse. Best to try to keep within the timing where possible.

Keep faff down, keep forward up. Just. Keep. Pedalling!

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Martin

  • Give me bas relief
    • WWW
Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #80 on: August 21, 2019, 10:53:46 am »
Thanks far fetched, that’s what I was after.

AIUI it’s rhe brevet card time that matters*. At Villhaines the mat is at the exit!

(* does it? Does anyone know how strictly enforced their policy on refusing validation if intermediate controls are out of time?)

My understanding is they are strict on it, unless you've got a really good excuse. Best to try to keep within the timing where possible.


that's correct. In 2007 the awful weather produced bulges at the middle controls with riders all seeking shelter overnight so they allowed a 2 hr extension at all intermediate controls EXCEPT the finish (this was advertised on printed sheets at each)

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #81 on: August 21, 2019, 11:01:13 am »

@Grams : you are really cutting it close - 1 min at the last control in Fougeres.
Dossier document states that "closing times must be honoured or homologation will be denied"

Its all quite addictive viewing - pity i will be out tomorrow and not be able to keep an eye on this.
Regards,

Alan

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #82 on: August 21, 2019, 11:02:37 am »
(* does it? Does anyone know how strictly enforced their policy on refusing validation if intermediate controls are out of time?)

I can only speak for 2011 and the people stamping the cards did not care. Given people start at different times and the Brevet Cards don't account for this they're not inclined to check. The only problem would be if you were so far behind it was obvious you were out of time.

I was an hour or two beyond the time limit printed in the card for almost every control in the latter half as I started 2 hours after the time printed in the card (and my actual starting time was never written in the card, they relied on the chip timing at the start to record that) and was right on the time limit. Not once did anyone say anything. I rode through the last night and romped home in the sunshine to finish with 2 hours to spare.

2011 had different starting arrangements though (you didn't get given a specific wave and starting time).
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Martin

  • Give me bas relief
    • WWW
Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #83 on: August 21, 2019, 11:04:38 am »
I was in the very last 90h group out in 2007 and they wrote my actual start time (2300) in the card, this was what I worked to, even then it took 20 mins to get from the control to actually roling along

T42

  • Tea tank
Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #84 on: August 21, 2019, 11:09:39 am »
In 2007 they allowed everyone (in the 21:00 group at least) an extra hour. Just as well: I took my last photo before the start at 22:10.
I've dusted all those old bottles and set them up straight.

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #85 on: August 21, 2019, 11:39:03 am »
I just added an offset for my start time to the times in the brochure, which of course does not match the brevet card times....
Reine de la Fauche


Martin

  • Give me bas relief
    • WWW
Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #86 on: August 21, 2019, 11:40:51 am »
I do know of one rider who was an hour late at the finish and quietly stamped and waved on; from what I've heard they were in a bit of a state

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #87 on: August 21, 2019, 05:05:03 pm »
TINTENIAC   869                 07.17
FOUGERES    923                11.26  (54km)  13.17kmh
VILLAINES   1012                18.31  (89km)  12.41kmh
MORT. AU PERCHE  1097       01.33  (85km) 12.23kmh
DREUX   1174                     08.01  (77km)  11.9kmh
RAMBOUILLET   1219           11.45  (45km)  12.05kmh

grams to Villaines-La-Juhel at 17:57 so with 35 minutes in hand (upon arrival).
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #88 on: August 21, 2019, 10:01:34 pm »
I haven't seen any mention of secret controls?

As by now everyone should be well past them the secret can be lifted they where a bit lazy and just turned their table around ;) both at St Nicolas Du Pelem

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #89 on: August 21, 2019, 11:30:34 pm »
The table was inside the first time and out in the street the second, requiring cyclocross skillz to get from there to the bike parking.

I think a lot of people might have missed it the first time. I only spotted they were stamping cards when I was looking for somewhere to buy coffee.

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #90 on: August 22, 2019, 08:57:46 am »
TINTENIAC   869                 07.17
FOUGERES    923                11.26  (54km)  13.17kmh
VILLAINES   1012                18.31  (89km)  12.41kmh
MORT. AU PERCHE  1097       01.33  (85km) 12.23kmh
DREUX   1174                     08.01  (77km)  11.9kmh
RAMBOUILLET   1219           11.45  (45km)  12.05kmh

grams to Villaines-La-Juhel at 17:57 so with 35 minutes in hand (upon arrival).

grams had 1h22 in hand at Mortagne and 16 minutes in hand at Dreux.

Just over 3 hours to do the last 44km (I think, not sure with the recent route change) to Rambouillet. He should be well into that by now as he's got just under 2 hours on the clock to go.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Zed43

  • prefers UK hills over Dutch mountains
Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #91 on: August 22, 2019, 09:04:30 am »
He should be good, the last 44km is gentle riding and the sun is shining at the moment.

Redlight

  • Enjoying life in the slow lane
Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #92 on: August 22, 2019, 09:21:32 am »
Has the new route still got that stingy little climb in the forest? I remember seeing people walking up it on past PBPs, even though they probably wouldn't even have noticed it 1100 km earlier!
Between the Disney abattoir and the chemical refinery

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #93 on: August 22, 2019, 09:45:21 am »
No pretty but tough climb now.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #94 on: August 22, 2019, 10:40:38 am »
Well he finished just over an hour ago. 88h43. Too quick for Adrian Hands membership.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #95 on: August 22, 2019, 11:14:29 am »
They didn’t look at the other control times at all before stamping my card and handing over the medal. Might still be checked later...

Has the new route still got that stingy little climb in the forest? I remember seeing people walking up it on past PBPs, even though they probably wouldn't even have noticed it 1100 km earlier!

PBP finish course described as “but wait, there’s more!”

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #96 on: August 22, 2019, 09:38:45 pm »
The table was inside the first time and out in the street the second, requiring cyclocross skillz to get from there to the bike parking.

I think a lot of people might have missed it the first time. I only spotted they were stamping cards when I was looking for somewhere to buy coffee.
When I was there the marshals were very vocal about a control.
   Eddington  81 miles  112 kms

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #97 on: August 23, 2019, 02:17:07 am »
These were the numbers I was trying to figure out earlier in the thread. This is how much extra time you get for each leg vs the average speed out to Brest (14.49 km/h).

to Mortagne-au-Perche (-17 minutes)
To VILLAINES-LA-JUHEL (-14 minutes)
to FOUGERES (-13 minutes)
To TINTENIAC (+7 minutes)
to Quédillac (+3 minutes)
To LOUDEAC (+9 minutes)
To Saint-Nicolas-du-Pélem (+9 minutes)
To CARHAIX-PLOUGUER (+2 minutes)
To BREST (+12 minutes)

To CARHAIX-PLOUGUER (+14 minutes)
To Saint-Nicolas-du-Pélem (+17 minutes)
To LOUDEAC (+20 minutes)
to Quédillac (+28 minutes)
To TINTENIAC (+15 minutes)
to FOUGERES (+25 minutes)
To VILLAINES-LA-JUHEL (+56 minutes)
to Mortagne-au-Perche (+70 minutes)
to Dreux (+69 minutes)
to Rambouillet (+38 minutes)

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #98 on: August 23, 2019, 02:39:45 am »
According to the numbers on my brevet, I was 2 minutes late to Brest and 1 minute late to Tinteniac*. I was 3 minutes late over the start line (Not my fault, congestion before card stamping) so my relative tracking times are under the limits. Should I email them or leave it to fait?

(* there were two controllers and a digital clock on the wall that was two minutes fast. One of the guys said "Dix-sept" out loud while the other was stamping my brevet. Then while he was admiring his handiwork the clock changed. The guy looked at my pointedly and said "Dix-huit" and that's what I got. I think they enjoyed it...)

T42

  • Tea tank
Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #99 on: August 23, 2019, 08:21:32 am »
From what I've seen in the past they'll probably round down small discrepancies.  They knocked six minutes off my time in 2015, and in 2007 I noticed that quite a few people were credited with 90 hours dead on.

I've dusted all those old bottles and set them up straight.