Author Topic: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?  (Read 2317 times)

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2019, 07:59:12 pm »

It's not really a problem at all provided both sides accept that AUK does a form of cycling suspiciously similar to ACP Randonneuring that isn't.

Except for when someone is trying to do something that is recognised more widely, such as the ISR, or ACP medals, or the awards issued by other countries, etc...

That's the riders problem though, not ACP/AUK/FIFAs

Fidgetbuzz

  • L sp MOON. 1st R sp MARS . At X SO sp STARS
Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2019, 08:52:29 pm »
May be I know nothing .. but I thought there was also a money element  involved .. we got fed up with paying for a lot of BRM s .. when as far as I know there is absolutely no evidence of accountability on where the BRM fees go .. who they benefit , whether they are justified , no accounts published etc etc.  Didnt we also do all the work on the LEL BRM ( sorry LRM qg) in 2013 and yet still paid  fees across......   for nothing.
I was an accountant until I discovered Audax !!

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2019, 08:56:48 pm »
May be I know nothing .. but I thought there was also a money element  involved .. we got fed up with paying for a lot of BRM s .. when as far as I know there is absolutely no evidence of accountability on where the BRM fees go .. who they benefit , whether they are justified , no accounts published etc etc.  Didnt we also do all the work on the LEL BRM in 2013 and yet still paid  fees across......   for nothing.

Erm, isn't LEL homologated by LRM rather than ACP?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2019, 01:12:11 am »
Except for when someone is trying to do something that is recognised more widely, such as the ISR, or ACP medals, or the awards issued by other countries, etc...

I'm inclined to think that if a rider is interested in internationally homologated awards, then they're probably capable of distinguishing which rides are eligible for international homologation.

As LWaB and phil w said, there isn't particularly a shortage of those in the UK.

Didnt we also do all the work on the LEL BRM in 2013 and yet still paid  fees across......   for nothing.

And obviously, some organisers/organising teams aren't wholly convinced of the merits or benefits of international homologation (though I think alwyn is now more firmly on the ACP/LRM side of the fence).

S2L

Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2019, 06:33:55 am »
Different for everybody, obviously.

For me, when I can collect a SR without excessive difficulty.

Makes sense.

There were 140 BRM rides run under Audax UK in the last year. How many BRMs were run in the Netherlands in the past year?

This year was a PBP year, so a lot of rides were BRM that might otherwise have not been. How many are on next years calendar? What about the year before?

This coming year, I think the plan is: there will probably be 14 200's, three 300's, two 400's and two 600's. And a 1200. For a country geographically about the same area as the home counties and London, and has ~200 members. All BRM.

J

You are obsessed with this BRM nonsense...

The very reason why AUK has 7000 members and counting is because we do very few BRM and a lot of shorter rides, some BP some BR

Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2019, 09:40:55 am »
Different for everybody, obviously.

For me, when I can collect a SR without excessive difficulty.

Makes sense.

There were 140 BRM rides run under Audax UK in the last year. How many BRMs were run in the Netherlands in the past year?

This year was a PBP year, so a lot of rides were BRM that might otherwise have not been. How many are on next years calendar? What about the year before?

This coming year, I think the plan is: there will probably be 14 200's, three 300's, two 400's and two 600's. And a 1200. For a country geographically about the same area as the home counties and London, and has ~200 members. All BRM.

J

You are obsessed with this BRM nonsense...

The very reason why AUK has 7000 members and counting is because we do very few BRM and a lot of shorter rides, some BP some BR

That's not exactly true though, is it? This season just ended wasn't representative due to PBP qualification constraints. In the 2017-2018 season there were 64 BRM events, which is not what I'd call very few!

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2019, 10:13:35 am »

That's not exactly true though, is it? This season just ended wasn't representative due to PBP qualification constraints. In the 2017-2018 season there were 64 BRM events, which is not what I'd call very few!

7000 members, an 64 BRM events, would mean 109 members per BRM, vs 200 members, and 22 BRM's or 9 members per event...

The number of BP events that AUK puts on, and the way they are used to help subsidise the BR(M) events does certainly complicate the metrics. I did ask some of the Dutch people why we don't also do the 100k support event and got the reply "BRM starts at 200" or words that effect...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

S2L

Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2019, 10:33:00 am »

That's not exactly true though, is it? This season just ended wasn't representative due to PBP qualification constraints. In the 2017-2018 season there were 64 BRM events, which is not what I'd call very few!

7000 members, an 64 BRM events, would mean 109 members per BRM, vs 200 members, and 22 BRM's or 9 members per event...

The number of BP events that AUK puts on, and the way they are used to help subsidise the BR(M) events does certainly complicate the metrics. I did ask some of the Dutch people why we don't also do the 100k support event and got the reply "BRM starts at 200" or words that effect...

J

Sounds like they are a bit blind and don't see the opportunities. Most of the "more popular" brevets are BP 100, with 50 and 150 being the typically less popular distances...

Look at this one, 221 validations... in my books to have 221 validation you need at least 300 entries... of all those non AUK members, you can bet some will buy a membership

http://www.aukweb.net/results/detail/this/listevent/?Ride=19-14

Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2019, 10:34:07 am »

That's not exactly true though, is it? This season just ended wasn't representative due to PBP qualification constraints. In the 2017-2018 season there were 64 BRM events, which is not what I'd call very few!

7000 members, an 64 BRM events, would mean 109 members per BRM, vs 200 members, and 22 BRM's or 9 members per event...

The number of BP events that AUK puts on, and the way they are used to help subsidise the BR(M) events does certainly complicate the metrics. I did ask some of the Dutch people why we don't also do the 100k support event and got the reply "BRM starts at 200" or words that effect...

J

You assume that all 7000 members of AUK are active, which they are not. It's always mystified me why AUK calls itself a 'Long Distance Cycling Association' but then promotes 100km rides. I tend to agree with the Dutch view, but that's probably not surprising considering my ancestry!  :P

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2019, 10:41:35 am »
You assume that all 7000 members of AUK are active, which they are not. It's always mystified me why AUK calls itself a 'Long Distance Cycling Association' but then promotes 100km rides. I tend to agree with the Dutch view, but that's probably not surprising considering my ancestry!  :P

There is a similar assumption that all 200 are active here too...

There is a whole can of worms to be had on what counts as long distance...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

S2L

Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2019, 10:52:26 am »
You assume that all 7000 members of AUK are active, which they are not. It's always mystified me why AUK calls itself a 'Long Distance Cycling Association' but then promotes 100km rides. I tend to agree with the Dutch view, but that's probably not surprising considering my ancestry!  :P

Most people will still marvel that you can cycle 100 km in a day, so long distance is a very relative concept.

Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2019, 11:17:33 am »
And you're not even considering DIYs by GPS which only really AUK offers, is why we have a number of foreign riders who chose to participate in our awards such as RRtY, and shows how AUK has moved forward with the times through engagement with its members.
“That slope may look insignificant, but it's going to be my destiny" - Fitzcarraldo

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2019, 11:19:47 am »
And you're not even considering DIYs by GPS which only really AUK offers, is why we have a number of foreign riders who chose to participate in our awards such as RRtY, and shows how AUK has moved forward with the times through engagement with its members.

I only joined because of the DIY's, tho it has the added advantage that I get a magazine 4 times a year that is rather nice to read, and it gets me entry into LEL. I wonder how many AUK members have only ridden AUK DIY events, but no calendar events...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2019, 12:49:48 pm »

That's not exactly true though, is it? This season just ended wasn't representative due to PBP qualification constraints. In the 2017-2018 season there were 64 BRM events, which is not what I'd call very few!

7000 members, an 64 BRM events, would mean 109 members per BRM, vs 200 members, and 22 BRM's or 9 members per event...

The number of BP events that AUK puts on, and the way they are used to help subsidise the BR(M) events does certainly complicate the metrics. I did ask some of the Dutch people why we don't also do the 100k support event and got the reply "BRM starts at 200" or words that effect...

J

Sounds like they are a bit blind and don't see the opportunities. Most of the "more popular" brevets are BP 100, with 50 and 150 being the typically less popular distances...

Look at this one, 221 validations... in my books to have 221 validation you need at least 300 entries... of all those non AUK members, you can bet some will buy a membership

http://www.aukweb.net/results/detail/this/listevent/?Ride=19-14

Supporting event for a 200 with 25 validations?

A squiz at this years events and validations indicates that where a 200 and a 100 are on the same day from the same place, the 200 usually has more finishers.

Consider:
http://www.aukweb.net/results/archive/2019/listevent/?Ride=18-388
and http://www.aukweb.net/results/archive/2019/listevent/?Ride=18-387

http://www.aukweb.net/results/archive/2019/listevent/?Ride=18-257
and http://www.aukweb.net/results/archive/2019/listevent/?Ride=18-584

http://www.aukweb.net/results/archive/2019/listevent/?Ride=18-635
and http://www.aukweb.net/results/archive/2019/listevent/?Ride=18-650
And in this example one eejit on the 160 entered it because he'd done the 200 route before and then ended up ECEing to get to 200...

And for balance another where the 100 was more popular than the 200
http://www.aukweb.net/results/archive/2019/listevent/?Ride=19-656
http://www.aukweb.net/results/archive/2019/listevent/?Ride=19-655

And an example that is north of watford gap...
http://www.aukweb.net/results/archive/2019/listevent/?Ride=19-532
http://www.aukweb.net/results/archive/2019/listevent/?Ride=19-530

What stands out in that one is who was riding each event
the 100 was full of Tyneside Vagabonds riders
the 200 was full of VC167 riders

You see similar when you look at a 100 and a 150 run from Forfar
The Club riders from Angus Bike chain are all on the 100 (except for one who said he was ECEing from home but seems to have bailed and taken the short route home)
http://www.aukweb.net/results/archive/2019/listevent/?Ride=19-457

And most of the regular AE riders were on the 160
http://www.aukweb.net/results/archive/2019/listevent/?Ride=19-462


What the BP event finishers lists seem to show is they're picking up club and sportive riders as well as "retired" AUKs, some of the bigger ones may be due to the organizer advertising them to that demographic and if there's people who subsequently go longer, then they've fulfilled their purpose?

Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2019, 01:03:22 pm »
And obviously, some organisers/organising teams aren't wholly convinced of the merits or benefits of international homologation (though I think alwyn is now more firmly on the ACP/LRM side of the fence).

Maybe... From a LEL perspective I've often chafed at paying LRM to provide me with stickers for Sue and Keith to put on brevets. To be honest it struck me as a bit of a racket. Mind you, as LEL increasingly relies on itself for funding, insurance, international liaison, publicity, brevet production and volunteers, I have to question AUK's fees too.

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2019, 01:32:27 pm »

And an example that is north of watford gap...
http://www.aukweb.net/results/archive/2019/listevent/?Ride=19-532
http://www.aukweb.net/results/archive/2019/listevent/?Ride=19-530

What stands out in that one is who was riding each event
the 100 was full of Tyneside Vagabonds riders
the 200 was full of VC167 riders

A number of those riders are members of both clubs!

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2019, 02:42:54 pm »

And an example that is north of watford gap...
http://www.aukweb.net/results/archive/2019/listevent/?Ride=19-532
http://www.aukweb.net/results/archive/2019/listevent/?Ride=19-530

What stands out in that one is who was riding each event
the 100 was full of Tyneside Vagabonds riders
the 200 was full of VC167 riders

A number of those riders are members of both clubs!

Well yes... I was meaning club at AUK level, perhapse being both and identifying as Tyneside Vags is an indication of less into distance? (wild speculation)

Fidgetbuzz

  • L sp MOON. 1st R sp MARS . At X SO sp STARS
Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2019, 03:05:52 pm »
as far as I know there is absolutely no evidence of accountability on where the BRM fees go .. who they benefit , whether they are justified , no accounts published etc etc. 

Not inline with the OP .. but as the LEL money man .. the subject of audax financing does cause me concern. Given the background of the huge growth that has taken place in AUK membership and the number of LEL riders in 2013 and 2017 .. together with the massive overapplication for the 2021 deposit ballot.. particularly coming from the Far East, combine that with AUK sitting on £350,000 before the web escapade.  What actually happens to all the BRM money that must be pouring in to ACP.. on a world wide basis now.  Has anyone ever seen any accounts for ACP... who are the ACP directors/officers accountable to. How many members does ACP actually have ..what does ACP actually do ..  what happens to the money that is paid from your entry fee for a ride to AUK and then on  to ACP
I was an accountant until I discovered Audax !!

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2019, 03:52:45 pm »
Maybe... From a LEL perspective I've often chafed at paying LRM to provide me with stickers for Sue and Keith to put on brevets. To be honest it struck me as a bit of a racket. Mind you, as LEL increasingly relies on itself for funding, insurance, international liaison, publicity, brevet production and volunteers, I have to question AUK's fees too.

The whole point of paying LRM or AUK or ACP is that they homologate the ride. The idea being that if I do a ride homologated by ACP in .NL, and you do one in .BE, then we can both look at each other and know we've both achieved the same standard. The same is true if we both do a ride homologated by AUK or LRM.

Take out the homologation, and its just a ride. It's no longer a Randonee, or a brevet or an audax.

That's what we the riders pay for. It's not like it's a large amount. A few pence per rider for a BRM.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2019, 04:27:53 pm »
The whole point of paying LRM or AUK or ACP is that they homologate the ride. The idea being that if I do a ride homologated by ACP in .NL, and you do one in .BE, then we can both look at each other and know we've both achieved the same standard. The same is true if we both do a ride homologated by AUK or LRM.

Take out the homologation, and its just a ride. It's no longer a Randonee, or a brevet or an audax.

Except it's not a few pence, is it? In 2021 I am likely to pay £4,500 in temporary membership fees to AUK, £600 in AUK validation fees and 3,000 euros in LRM validation fees. That's over £7,500 or £3.75 per rider of LEL. For that LEL receives what looks like will be a token route check, no insurance cover, no brevets, no entry management and no publicity support. To be clear, LEL is the only event that AUK will not cover with their insurance without us paying a premium.

In 2013 we validated our own cards with stickers provided by LRM. We were charged £4,000 for the stickers and it was years before those results appeared anywhere except on our own website. Admittedly in 2017 we were an administrative burden to AUK, resulting in a pretty sharp email from AUK about getting my cards in order for 2021.

So yes, that £7,500 pays for homolgation, an almost abstract concept, and nothing else. I'd argue that that is very poor value for money.

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2019, 05:12:34 pm »
In fact AUK should pay LEL a fee for the kudos it brings by association.   ;)

The fees LEL pays have been a bone of contention going back well into Bernard's time, at least 2001 if not earlier.  LEL apart, the pay-as-you-go model for RM validation fees has been inoperative for many years now.  AUK event organisers are charged the same per-finisher validation fee regardless of type of event - RM validation is effectively free.  This has been the case for at least 5 years, maybe longer.  Any fee payable to ACP is taken up by AUK and not fed back to the events, and I think I'm right in saying that in practice it's a single block fee and not directly dependent on numbers of validations.  That is just AUK though - for other countries it may be different.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #46 on: October 01, 2019, 05:17:01 pm »
In fact AUK should pay LEL a fee for the kudos it brings by association.   ;)

heheh - that reminds me though, AUK also gets a boost to its coffers from international members who join only to get a guaranteed place on LEL.

Zed43

  • prefers UK hills over Dutch mountains
Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2019, 06:07:33 pm »
And they get an even bigger boost from gaijin who end up doing other brevets on British soil as well  :D

I don't disagree that the value for money on LRM homologation is not great. But in the grand scheme of things, £350 for LEL registration and probably the same for travel and lodging around the event, £5 doesn't make me lose sleep either. And, while I not collecting medals for every ride I do, I do covet the ACP Randonneur 10000 medal  ;)

Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2019, 06:16:35 pm »
It's not that big a proportion of the turnover of £593,356 in 2017, or the operating surplus of £68,272. Although there was £5,000 tax payable on the surplus.

I wonder what Andy Corless is doing for validation on his 1,4000 km 'Lands End' ride? It's listed as BRM.

Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2019, 06:32:51 pm »
It's not that big a proportion of the turnover of £593,356 in 2017, or the operating surplus of £68,272. Although there was £5,000 tax payable on the surplus.

It's about the same that we gave Madegood for their fantastic film of the 2013 event.

Award-winning film - bag of stickers. Take your pick.