Author Topic: You don't pay no road tax  (Read 2670 times)

Steph

  • Fast. Fast and bulbous. But fluffy.
Mae angen arnaf i byw, a fe fydda'i

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2019, 07:51:25 am »
This is the telling bit of that article:

Quote
The IFS said decisions by both Labour and Conservative governments not to raise fuel duty in line with inflation meant that duties had fallen from 2.2% to 1.3% of national income since peaking in 1999-2000, costing £19bn a year in lost revenue. It added that the government would lose a further £1bn a year if rumours of a 2p a litre cut in fuel duty in the budget proved to be true.

War on the motorist, my arse!
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

T42

  • Tea tank
Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2019, 08:30:02 am »
Flat rate per mile, bollocks. Make it a tax by weight of vehicle. No charge for anything under 50 kg.
I've dusted all those old bottles and set them up straight.

Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2019, 08:33:33 am »
Flat rate per mile, bollocks. Make it a tax by weight of vehicle. No charge for anything under 50 kg.

Rising proportionally to the damage done to the road, so that would be axle weight to the 4th power IIRC

Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2019, 09:07:39 am »
Flat rate per mile, bollocks. Make it a tax by weight of vehicle. No charge for anything under 50 kg.

That'll mean I have to pay double just to walk down the street

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2019, 02:56:30 pm »
Flat rate per mile, bollocks. Make it a tax by weight of vehicle. No charge for anything under 50 kg.

Rising proportionally to the damage done to the road, so that would be axle weight to the 4th power IIRC

isn't that already the case with HGVs? Not to 4th power perhaps, but reflective of the additional damage.

This is generally the argument I use with the "get orf moi road" brigade.

As far as I'm concerned fuel duty is the way to go, taxes the direct pollution impact, not a general taxation on the rest of us to allow people to pollute on our behalf.  If the haulage sector wants to get serious about this, then the cost needs to be passed on to the price of goods, hence hitting the consumer in the wallet at the end of the supply chain, and eventually resulting in downward pressure to get more efficient.

I'm happy to pay higher fuel duty, I'd also be happy to pay a suitable amount of VAT or other eco-tax on every flight I take, then I'm directly responsble for my decision making rather than some amorphous blob of general taxation
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2019, 03:20:16 pm »
Germany has just announced it is going to spend 50bn euros on its railway network to ameriolate climate change. The Tories at their conference have announced plans to spend a further £25billion on its road network.
Get a bicycle. You will never regret it, if you live- Mark Twain

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2019, 06:35:04 pm »
As far as I'm concerned fuel duty is the way to go, taxes the direct pollution impact, not a general taxation on the rest of us to allow people to pollute on our behalf.

There's a rapidly expanding elephant in the room when it comes to fuel duty:  How do you ensure sufficient tax revenue as more vehicles run on electricity? 
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2019, 06:53:06 pm »
As far as I'm concerned fuel duty is the way to go, taxes the direct pollution impact, not a general taxation on the rest of us to allow people to pollute on our behalf.

There's a rapidly expanding elephant in the room when it comes to fuel duty:  How do you ensure sufficient tax revenue as more vehicles run on electricity?

Not really an issue in the next ten years or so is it though. Even Norway where twenty percent of new cars are electric will have a long way to go before had the fleet are

I’m sure the next bunch of loonies in charge of the asylum will find another tax that suits their needs
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2019, 08:09:02 pm »
It's not about raising government revenue, though. It's about finding a new way to make motor vehicles pay their costs.
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree

Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2019, 08:22:11 pm »
The only effective way is to introduce road pricing, but I can't see any political party grasping that nettle.

Difficult to tax electricity used for vehicles, unless they can find a way to dye electrons red. ;)

Adam

  • It'll soon be summer
    • Charity ride Durness to Dover 18-25th June 2011
Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2019, 08:25:00 pm »
As logical, rational individuals here, we know the system needs altering.  However, in the same way that successive Labour & Tory Governments have postponed for decades any rebasing of property prices for council tax, they're not going to alter the way cars are taxed through VED for a very long time.  It's all part of the usual short term pandering to the "hard working British taxpayer/car owner", to keep their votes.



“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving.” -Albert Einstein

Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2019, 09:27:26 pm »
As logical, rational individuals here, we know the system needs altering.  However, in the same way that successive Labour & Tory Governments have postponed for decades any rebasing of property prices for council tax, they're not going to alter the way cars are taxed through VED for a very long time.  It's all part of the usual short term pandering to the "hard working British taxpayer/car owner", to keep their votes.
Time for a benign dictatorship. The bulk of the population are unlikely to vote for changes which they perceive will make their life harder / more expensive.

And they certainly won't do that with FPTP.
Rust never sleeps

Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2019, 09:43:26 pm »
As logical, rational individuals here, we know the system needs altering.  However, in the same way that successive Labour & Tory Governments have postponed for decades any rebasing of property prices for council tax, they're not going to alter the way cars are taxed through VED for a very long time.  It's all part of the usual short term pandering to the "hard working British taxpayer/car owner", to keep their votes.
Time for a benign dictatorship. The bulk of the population are unlikely to vote for changes which they perceive will make their life harder / more expensive.

And they certainly won't do that with FPTP.
although he evidence would suggest that they are perfectly happy to vote for damaging change if they are told it’ll be worth it in the short term by some Etonian twat.
Sorting my life out, one shed at a time.

Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2019, 09:45:03 pm »
But they don't perceive there will be damage.

I spoke with someone the other day who likened the whole Brexit crap show as being akin to religion. They have faith. They believe.
Rust never sleeps

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
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Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2019, 02:25:36 pm »
But they don't perceive there will be damage.

I spoke with someone the other day who likened the whole Brexit crap show as being akin to religion. They have faith. They believe.

It is widely regarded as a cult in the murky corners of Farcebok I frequent.
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2019, 12:08:46 pm »

Right.

Personally I'd like to see Vehicle Excise Duty abolished.

Rationale: If it doesn't exist, fuckwits can't shout "BUT YOU DON'T PAY ROAD TAX!" at cyclists.

Given the significant proportion of vehicles that don't pay VED as it's based on emissions, I'd say it's no longer fit for purpose. Get rid of VED, stick 3p pre litre on diesel and 2p a litre on petrol. I'd also stick a levy on tyres. (it's the only emissions that EV's produce from the vehicle other than brake pads).

The idea being that there is no direct tax on the ownership of the vehicle, but on the running of it. Got a car that sits in the garage and you only drive it on the one day of Summer, then you pay a lot less than the person who has a 3l engined wank panzer that they drive around in all day.

Getting the political will to support it. Nah, the country is much more interested in national suicide.

*sigh*

J
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Kim

  • Timelord
Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2019, 12:14:45 pm »
Personally I'd like to see Vehicle Excise Duty abolished.

Rationale: If it doesn't exist, fuckwits can't shout "BUT YOU DON'T PAY ROAD TAX!" at cyclists.

This is a pretty compelling argument.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2019, 12:23:01 pm »
Just change it to a tax on on-street parking.

Kim

  • Timelord
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2019, 12:54:27 pm »
If fuel duty had risen in line with inflation over the past decade or so (never mind the 'fuel duty escalator'), we'd have had far more than 3p and 2p a litre by now. So, yes, do that and more.

You then begin to face two problems connected with fuel prices. One is that when the price of one fuel is far higher than another which is compatible or nearly so but intended for a different purpose, people will start to use the cheaper one for other purposes. The obvious example is red diesel, but that's fairly easily prevented by restricting supplies and users of untaxed fuel. The bigger problem is what happened in much of Eastern Europe in the early 2000s, when people start running lorries and buses on fuel which is sold as domestic heating oil. This not only loses government revenue, it increases pollution because the fuel is not optimised for internal combustion engines. So you either increase enforcement, which is difficult even if you do have the transport police and customs officers, or you increase the non-transport fuel taxes to match – which is probably fair enough as they are the same thing and therefore have the same pollution costs.

The second problem is that by focusing on taxing use rather than ownership, you no longer give light users an incentive to give up. A car that's parked 364 days a year still imposes costs on society, most obviously by land take and street congestion. If it's parked on private land it might not cause congestion but is at the very least an eyesore (if it's a rusting hulk in the front garden, which most unused vehicles are) and if it's in good condition, then it's arguably an unused resource that could be made better use of. The big hit of paying VED (whatever you want to call it) once a year can have more psychological impact than the ongoing smaller costs of running the vehicle. So you need a way to tax ownership, whether it's the current VED system or by vehicle area, weight, maybe an annual 'number plate fee', or some other idea.
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2019, 01:02:02 pm »

Why stop at on-street?

https://www.nottinghamcity.gov.uk/information-for-residents/transport-parking-and-streets/parking-and-permits/workplace-parking-levy

Well there's likely to be a change in taxation on this soon. One of the arguments a lot of people who use EV's have used is "I can charge it at work" either using officially installed charging infrastructure, or a 13A cable through the window to their parking spot. This makes can effectively make commuting free[1]. Where this becomes even more interesting is once V2G kicks off, if you have a big enough battery, and a short enough commute, you can drive to work, plug in, drive home, plug your house into the car, cook dinner, run the tv etc... off your car, drive back to work the next day, plug in. Your employer effectively is covering your electricity bill. I did actually do the maths on how big a battery would I need to run my flat for 24 hours, and could I fit it on my bike, and take advantage of the e-bike charging at the office (spoiler, not cost effective at current battery power density).

Gemeente Amsterdam has taken a policy of getting rid of about 10000 public parking spaces.

They are replacing them with parking space for bikes and brommers ala:




They have the same form factor as a car space, and they can move them in. At very short notice (great for festivals...). The idea is that they stick one in a location, if it works, then they replace it with a permanent installation, then move the temp one to somewhere else, rinse and repeat.

This is great, if you're riding an omafiets, but if you want to park something with a different form factor *cough* velomobile *cough*, you're screwed. I'd like to see a bike hanger type setup as a option (see my thread in the Dark Side section on how to store a velomobile). But Amsterdam has some of the most talented bike thieves on the planet (hotly contested with NYC), meaning any install would have to be rather substantial.

And ultimately, a lot of the arguments on why you shouldn't be allowed to discard abandon park your car on the public street could also be used to apply to bikes (and is why dockless bike schemes didn't fly in Amsterdam, that and racism, and a fuck it lets blame shit on tourists approach).

Under Dutch tax law a employer can pay your commute, at a fixed rate of €0.19 per km, or the actual price if you take public transport. Thing is, they define vehicle to include bike, brommer, motorbike, or car. This is obviously below the real cost per km for most cars, but for a bike it's actually pretty damn good. Cycle 10km each way to work, you're getting an extra €19 per week, tax free. Funnily enough the higher spec swapfiets bike is €19 per month... Annoyingly the way it's supposed to be calculated is the shortest reasonable route (i.e. the route you might want to actually take, not the route googlemaps says you *CAN* take), not the actual distance you do ride. Apparently my 100km ride home from work was considered "taking the piss"... Can't think why...

Back to the 2 ton death cages. I can see in the next few years the rise of Yet Another Scrapage Scheme, as the government tries to get the worst polluting vehicles off the road, as well as try to stimulate a car manufacturing sector that will be well and truly fucked by certain events... What I'd love to see tho is that rather than a car for a car policy, there is also an option of a car for bikes scheme. You trade in your old car, and swap it for a e-assist bakfiets, 2 stadfiets/hybrids, and as many kids bikes as you have in your family. Complete with all the locks etc... needed to make it practical. But somehow, I don't see any Government doing such a thing, assuming the UK government even exists in a years time...

Anyway, I'm waffling. Get rid of VED.

J

[1] A lot of Amsterdam data centres have EV charging points outside I've yet to work out which side of the generators/UPS they are connected, could be an interesting place to charge one's EV in the result of big power cuts. Or maybe it's an extra battery source via V2G...

--
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http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2019, 01:30:10 pm »
This is great, if you're riding an omafiets, but if you want to park something with a different form factor *cough* velomobile *cough*, you're screwed. I'd like to see a bike hanger type setup as a option (see my thread in the Dark Side section on how to store a velomobile).
A few (very few) bike hangars have been installed on roads here but they all have standard sheffield-type racks inside. Not boxbike-friendly let alone velomobile.
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2019, 01:34:13 pm »
VED provides an annual shock of the cost of car ownership, and as Cudzo says hits low mileage users of cars too.

Basically, there needs to be behavioural change level charges on private transport.
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2019, 01:35:39 pm »
VED provides an annual shock of the cost of car ownership, and as Cudzo says hits low mileage users of cars too.

Basically, there needs to be behavioural change level charges on private transport.

Why doesn't insurance do this?

Why doesn't the MOT do this?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/