Author Topic: You don't pay no road tax  (Read 2673 times)

Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2019, 01:46:14 pm »
Road tax (yeah, I’m calling it that) is paid by monthly direct debit which can make it easy to ignore.

Insurance is usually way more than road tax and is usuriously expensive to pay monthly, so should have more of an effect*.

MOTs vary between pocket change and “HOW MUCH?” depending on whether they view you as an easy mark find anything wrong.

* tbh One of the most annoying bits of car ownership is dicking about with insurance quotes every year.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2019, 01:56:59 pm »
VED provides an annual shock of the cost of car ownership, and as Cudzo says hits low mileage users of cars too.

Basically, there needs to be behavioural change level charges on private transport.

Why doesn't insurance do this?

Why doesn't the MOT do this?

J

Insurance is not related to effect on community/environment/infrastructure.

It depends on age/sex/occupation/number of years having done nothing bad/Postcode.

So, no, Insurance won't do that.

Neither will an MOT, since it costs less than a tank of fuel.
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
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Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2019, 02:13:20 pm »
Just change it to a tax on on-street parking.

Have a nice big house with a nice big driveway or a nice big garage and you don't pay a sou for your six litre Bentley, the three tonne Q7 (for the school run, obv) and the au-pair's runabout but if you have the temerity to be less well-off, living in a terrace and running a fifteen year old econobox you have to cough up?  Sounds fair, comrade.
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Kim

  • Timelord
Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2019, 02:18:21 pm »
It depends on age/sex/occupation/number of years having done nothing bad/Postcode.

No, it depends on number of years having insured a car, which is somewhere on the bad side of neutral.  Give up your car ownership and rely on occasional borrowed/hired vehicles, and you lose out.  The no-claims discount system encourages frivolous car use.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2019, 02:18:30 pm »
Where this becomes even more interesting is once V2G kicks off, if you have a big enough battery, and a short enough commute, you can drive to work, plug in, drive home, plug your house into the car, cook dinner, run the tv etc... off your car, drive back to work the next day, plug in. Your employer effectively is covering your electricity bill.

Only if the employer provides the charging for nothing. Mine doesn't, users have to pay using a Polar card. The restriction is that only cards we supply can be used, other Polar card holders can't - we are on an industrial estate of 20+ businesses with a common car parking area, albeit designated by company.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #30 on: October 07, 2019, 02:23:46 pm »
It depends on age/sex/occupation/number of years having done nothing bad/Postcode.

No, it depends on number of years having insured a car, which is somewhere on the bad side of neutral.  Give up your car ownership and rely on occasional borrowed/hired vehicles, and you lose out.  The no-claims discount system encourages frivolous car use.

It depends on whether you have done bad things too.
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #31 on: October 07, 2019, 02:26:04 pm »
It depends on age/sex/occupation/number of years having done nothing bad/Postcode.

No, it depends on number of years having insured a car, which is somewhere on the bad side of neutral.  Give up your car ownership and rely on occasional borrowed/hired vehicles, and you lose out.  The no-claims discount system encourages frivolous car use.
It also encourages use of larger vehicles, since NCD can be transferred from n years of motorcycling to insuring a car but not the other way round.

Someone, presumably one of our Leftponders, was saying on this forum that in USA car insurance includes an 'any driver' clause as standard. So if for instance Wowbagger gives a load of Yacfards a lift to the pub, he can proceed to merrily tipple knowing that one of the teetotallers can drive everyone home.
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
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Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #32 on: October 07, 2019, 02:52:26 pm »
Indeed, in the US you insure the car, since the scenario that someone may have to drive it is common. That said, the insurance tends to recognise risk in similar ways, so more expensive for younger drivers, etc.

The only thing that made us get rid of a car was the awkwardness of parking when we lived in Shepherd's Bush, it just wasn't worth the hassle to end up parking three streets away after fifteen minutes circling the area. And it did raise the question, why the hell do so many people in zone 2 need a car. Owners seem to accept costs, which is I assume why they sit there with the engine running.

Ultimately, if you want to discourage car use, you have to make it less convenient (while at the same time making the alternatives more convenient). Taxation may address some of that, but of course, the burden falls disproportionately.

Possibly the ultimate problem is that we've spent a lot of time and effort in building a society where we have to drive everywhere, often without an alternative. That's something we have actively encouraged in numerous ways but which we don't benefit from.
!nataS pihsroW

Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2019, 03:16:40 pm »
It's a lot easier to make a decision here to walk or cycle than it is in other countries especially nouveau riche cities such as the far and middle east. For one thing it's either too hot or too wet or both. In many cities there are very few decent footpaths and certainly no cycle provision. Across China and India where the bicycle has been king for over 100 years it is being wiped out in the new world of high rise buildings and if you don't travel everywhere by car you are clearly too poor to be of interest so why would provision be made?
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quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #34 on: October 07, 2019, 03:47:34 pm »

Insurance is not related to effect on community/environment/infrastructure.

It depends on age/sex/occupation/number of years having done nothing bad/Postcode.

So, no, Insurance won't do that.

Neither will an MOT, since it costs less than a tank of fuel.

No, UK insurance does that. In the civilised world you insure the car, not the driver. This also means that anyone can drive a car with the permission of the owner. This is very useful on trips where the owner of the car becomes unwell etc...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2019, 05:53:12 pm »
... and does what ian talks about above, encourages reliance on private transport.
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

MikeFromLFE

  • Previously known as Millimole
Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2019, 09:12:21 am »
A few posters have referred to the annual shock of VED & insurance as a disincentive - unfortunately both DVLA & the insurers seek to mitigate that by allowing monthly payments, so it becomes ' just another bill'.

VED doesn't work in its current form - but I'm buggered if I can think of a good alternative.

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Too many angry people - breathe & relax.

Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2019, 09:14:03 am »
Where this becomes even more interesting is once V2G kicks off, if you have a big enough battery, and a short enough commute, you can drive to work, plug in, drive home, plug your house into the car, cook dinner, run the tv etc... off your car, drive back to work the next day, plug in. Your employer effectively is covering your electricity bill.

Only if the employer provides the charging for nothing. Mine doesn't, users have to pay using a Polar card. The restriction is that only cards we supply can be used, other Polar card holders can't - we are on an industrial estate of 20+ businesses with a common car parking area, albeit designated by company.

There's a significant BIK liability if the employer gives away free electricity to any employee who wants to charge their car. Not sure how the taxman calculates it all, but it's just another headache for businesses to think about.
The business park I work on used to have free charging but is now Polar paid for charging - it's amazing how much easier it is to find an available charger now!

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2019, 03:50:46 pm »
Remember there is an environmental levy on eletrickery, and although there may be no tail pipe emissions, unless you're on a renewable tariff, there are emissions somewhere. So whilst EVs don't pay VED, they do pay consumption based taxes instead, which seems not unfair to me.

I think on my insurance I can drive any car with the permission of the owner, but only third party cover.
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2019, 05:58:39 pm »
VED provides an annual shock of the cost of car ownership, and as Cudzo says hits low mileage users of cars too.

Basically, there needs to be behavioural change level charges on private transport.
£30 p.a. for my car. Hardly a significant cost, compared to servicing or insurance. Anyone paying significantly more has chosen to drive an inefficient vehicle.
   Eddington  87 miles

Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #40 on: October 08, 2019, 06:08:32 pm »
Just change it to a tax on on-street parking.

Have a nice big house with a nice big driveway or a nice big garage and you don't pay a sou for your six litre Bentley, the three tonne Q7 (for the school run, obv) and the au-pair's runabout but if you have the temerity to be less well-off, living in a terrace and running a fifteen year old econobox you have to cough up?  Sounds fair, comrade.
So publicly owned space should be annexed by car drivers for no cost? What else are we allowed to store on the public highway? Garden table? Shed? Bike locker? No, just cars.
   Eddington  87 miles

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2019, 06:30:00 pm »
VED provides an annual shock of the cost of car ownership, and as Cudzo says hits low mileage users of cars too.

Basically, there needs to be behavioural change level charges on private transport.
£30 p.a. for my car. Hardly a significant cost, compared to servicing or insurance. Anyone paying significantly more has chosen to drive an inefficient vehicle.
If it had risen in line with inflation since the year I was old enough to drive, it would be £290 (according to the Bank of England inflation calculator). Why have we let it become so crazily cheap?
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree

MikeFromLFE

  • Previously known as Millimole
Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2019, 07:28:39 pm »
VED is out of kilter for motorcycles - my 180cc scooter - just paid £43 for the year. Heaven alone knows what a proper m/c costs these days.

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Too many angry people - breathe & relax.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #43 on: October 08, 2019, 08:04:02 pm »
Why have we let it become so crazily cheap?

Cumulative discounts for lower-emissions vehicles, maybe?
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #44 on: October 08, 2019, 08:16:04 pm »
It was a rhetorical question. Yes, I think that's the process. But not necessarily the reason.
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #45 on: October 08, 2019, 08:20:22 pm »
The reason is of course that anything else would be war on the motorist.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #46 on: October 08, 2019, 08:21:35 pm »
The votorisation of Britain.
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree

fd3

Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2019, 11:55:07 pm »
VED provides an annual shock of the cost of car ownership, and as Cudzo says hits low mileage users of cars too.

Basically, there needs to be behavioural change level charges on private transport.
Faced with the choice I would opt for higher fuel tax to reduce usage and accept that people have a car but use it less.  Then, hopefully, ten years down the line they will catch on to how much they have lost in buying a car.  But even if that doesn't happen they will have driven their car less, which is #1 aim.
Yes, I also need to be allowed to store my shed on the road, but that's #3 or #4 on the list.
[/I could be wrong]

Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #48 on: October 09, 2019, 07:07:49 am »

Back to the 2 ton death cages. I can see in the next few years the rise of Yet Another Scrapage Scheme, as the government tries to get the worst polluting vehicles off the road, as well as try to stimulate a car manufacturing sector that will be well and truly fucked by certain events...
I suppose someone in the Department for Transport has given you an exclusive scoop? :-)

Re: You don't pay no road tax
« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2019, 08:09:00 am »
VED provides an annual shock of the cost of car ownership, and as Cudzo says hits low mileage users of cars too.

Basically, there needs to be behavioural change level charges on private transport.
£30 p.a. for my car. Hardly a significant cost, compared to servicing or insurance. Anyone paying significantly more has chosen to drive an inefficient vehicle.

One take, but tell me, how would your choice fare, driving four people and luggage on holiday? Carrying 700kg of stone? etc etc.

We have two cars, my wife's £25 VED p.a. petrol fuelled is the local runaround, ten years old and averages less than 3000 miles a year. My diesel grandpawagon is as big as it gets for load carrying, relatively tardis like as it is smaller on the outside yet of larger internal capacity than the competition (yeah, I know it is still big). Used overwhelmingly for long trips and load carrying capability, average around 8k miles pa. It is  currently averaging the same sort of consumption as the small petrol and it is capable of genuine mid-to-high 60's mpg consumption on an economy run. So, actually very efficient for its size and reasonably efficient in absolute terms. My VED? Currently £500 pa.