Author Topic: Electric cars in bus lanes?  (Read 5888 times)

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #75 on: October 25, 2019, 01:05:39 pm »
Once the bus lanes are full of electric cars (which won't be long), where are all the buses going to go?

The buses will be stuck in traffic like everyone else, become less reliable, and get less use.  They can then be de-funded.  Job done.


Quote
I'm glad this has all been thought through by our betters.

Quite.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #76 on: October 25, 2019, 01:07:15 pm »

I'm not running an engine to heat the car, I'm driving normally and waste heat is heating the car. Are you suggesting that the engine works harder when I turn the heating on? I always understood putting the heating on diverted the airflow which the car needs going over the radiator to provide warmth to the occupants.

I have never once left the engine running when idling to warm thr car/clear the windows, just give them a wipe.
Yep 'free' heat in an ICE vehicle due to thermal inefficiency. (Engine needs to be cooled). But using a stationary ICE vehicle to keep warm, not so good.

This is true in hybrids, which will run the combustion engine when it wouldn't otherwise purely in order to generate heat/power for the climate control.  They generally try to dump energy into the battery while they're doing it.
An engineering compromise it seems.

Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #77 on: October 25, 2019, 01:12:53 pm »

The buses will be stuck in traffic like everyone else, become less reliable, and get less use.  They can then be de-funded.  Job done.

Yes, buses won't be needed when everyone has an electric powered personal transport box. Will be great for the economy, and that's the main thing. There's not much money to be made from bikes.... even cf ones with 12 speed electric gears.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #78 on: October 25, 2019, 01:14:59 pm »

The buses will be stuck in traffic like everyone else, become less reliable, and get less use.  They can then be de-funded.  Job done.

Yes, buses won't be needed when everyone has an electric powered personal transport box. Will be great for the economy, and that's the main thing.

Exactly.  Standard Thatcherism.  The electricity aspect just makes it easier to sell to un-critical greenies.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #79 on: October 25, 2019, 02:42:46 pm »
But using a stationary ICE vehicle to keep warm, not so good.

Every car in the queue outside my office at rush hour.


simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #80 on: October 25, 2019, 02:55:20 pm »
Rebound effect - energy efficiency leads to more usage, offsetting the benefit.
So side effects of moving to electric cars could well be: more congestion, less active travel, more danger to vulnerable road users, worsening obesity rates, less space for people (especially for children), increased social isolation.... any others?

Once the bus lanes are full of electric cars (which won't be long), where are all the buses going to go?

I'm glad this has all been thought through by our betters.

Congestion charges, low emission zones, road pricing.

London's congestion charge started out allowing hybrids in for free. Then that was stopped. Next it will be plug-in hybrids, next year IIRC. The goalposts will need to keep shifting. The ULEZ has already had a significant effect on London's air quality, and doing nothing about that isn't an option.

Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #81 on: October 25, 2019, 06:25:19 pm »
Yep 'free' heat in an ICE vehicle due to thermal inefficiency. (Engine needs to be cooled). But using a stationary ICE vehicle to keep warm, not so good.

Given the figure above: 40% efficient at producing motion, so the other 60% produces heat and noise. Noise doesn't contain much energy, so clearly using a stationary ICE vehicle to produce heat is *more* efficient than using it to get somewhere.

QED.
Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.

Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #82 on: October 25, 2019, 06:58:33 pm »
I reckon that only cycles should be allowed in the bus lanes. All the other vehicles should be powered by power lines like the  old trolleybus.. Even lorries could be powered that way for urban delivery at least.. Meanwhile back in the real world no cars should be allowed in the bus lanes  :)
the slower you go the more you see

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #83 on: October 25, 2019, 07:58:28 pm »
I reckon that only cycles should be allowed in the bus lanes. All the other vehicles should be powered by power lines like the  old trolleybus.. Even lorries could be powered that way for urban delivery at least.. Meanwhile back in the real world no cars should be allowed in the bus lanes  :)
You going to replace your flag pole with copper cable?  :D
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #84 on: October 26, 2019, 07:50:36 am »
 ;D
the slower you go the more you see

Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #85 on: October 26, 2019, 11:28:09 am »
Greenwashing shitbuckets, that's what. Electric cars are made to make middle-class people feel better about themselves.

Thanks Ian;)

Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #86 on: October 26, 2019, 11:54:58 am »
As a by-the-by, the British car industry is smaller than our video games industry these days.
While it makes less money, I bet it employs a huge amount more people. :)

Putting EVs (other than busses) in bus lanes is dumb. I don't even think taxis should be allowed to use them - save them for busses and human propelled vehicles. The green number plate is likewise ridiculous - ANPR means that you can tell what class a vehicle is by asking the DVLA (but they charge per request, so we have to have a stupid bureaucratic inefficient, easily scammed alternative).

EVs in and of themselves are better for the environment than ICE cars, and less good than all other forms of transport (barring flying). As a Zoe owner, this is something I can acknowledge, while accepting that my current circumstances don't permit me to go carless. I'd like to see more EVs, and more varied forms (vans, pickups, trucks etc). Bashing people who have chosen to accept the limitations of EV ownership with the technology in it's current state is counterproductive.


Sensible view Duncan, thanks

Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #87 on: October 26, 2019, 09:40:03 pm »
Like everybody on here, I am a cyclist.  Over the last 10 years i have probably cycled to work 2-3 days per week for >50% of weeks.  2 days i can generally walk to work.

Over the summer I drove as unable to cycle due to injury.  I have averaged 4500 per year for last few years

I have irregular trips to court which are generally by train if feasible but i cannot get to manchester by train in any reasonable fashion.  I also have irregular trips much further afield.  This leads to a requirement for a car.  i have a Golf GTE which replaced a fairly old car which i detested.  If i use it for commute then I can do the whole day on electric with regenerative braking.  I spend 90% of the commute on dual carriageway in cruise mode and barely touch the brakes or steering wheel in the 5 miles (lane recognition).

I charge overnight when i believe renewables are most efficient.

My wife has a 7 year old diesel Volvo with 67000 on the clock.  We have taken the decision to run this into the ground as it passes the MOT without any work every year and is meticulously serviced.  I think we are now probably at the stage where replacing it would be negative overall for the environment but open to correction.  My wife does not cycle but now walks and regularly will walk 10km per day to meetings, etc rather than the car.

I accept that all of these are make do and stopgaps.  If I had waited a couple of years I would possibly have joined a car club and only used it when necessary.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #88 on: October 26, 2019, 11:17:40 pm »
Isn’t the point that in order to get to the 50% chance of less then 2 degrees of change we need radical change in lifestyles.

EVs don’t do that. Walking, cycling, veggieness might do.

EVs continue the lifestyle hegemony, but salve consciences.
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #89 on: October 27, 2019, 06:44:23 am »
We don’t really *need* to change our lifestyles; we need to stop releasing greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, which pretty much means stopping burning fossil fuels.

Hypothetically at least, EVs can do that. But only if you can produce, ship, power and scrap them in a way that doesn’t release CO2 (etc) - which is a big if.

There are plenty of other reasons for changing our lifestyles, but climate change per se isn’t one of them.

Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #90 on: October 27, 2019, 10:46:03 am »
Absolutely correct about stopping burning fossil fuels. That is the only solution, and is required on a global scale. To all the deniers who say that the UK contribution is so small as to not matter while China continues to burn coal there are two key answers:

1. As a rich nation we have to be taking a lead, or no other nation will follow. This also applies to Europe.

2. The UK is amongst the biggest historic emitters - something like 5th overall in time - and this is why we are a rich nation. Therefore, we have a duty to lead the change and support poorer nations in their development.

There is no if as to whether the UK can be carbon neutral, actually long before 2050. The key question is whether we have the will. We are actually well placed to generate plenty of electricity with wind and (even!) solar, supported by increased nuclear capacity. If we generate a surplus that opens the door to using hydrogen for energy storage and we can also use biomethane for generation. This before we consider lithium for grid scale storage, although it clearly has its place for fast frequency response contracts.

For various reasons, Sue and I needed new cars. The reasons are, unfortunately, not practically negotiable. I wasn’t about to go and buy a gas guzzler. Actually, given my mileage and local grid carbon intensity, my ev will ‘pay’ for itself in co2 terms inside 4 years. Sue’s will probably take a couple of years longer, but it will get there and both are encouraging everyone we meet to think this stuff through. Does it make me feel better - hell yes it’ll hit 60 in under 3,5 seconds, but in terms of being smug, no it’s irrelevant.

Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #91 on: October 27, 2019, 08:17:30 pm »
Yep 'free' heat in an ICE vehicle due to thermal inefficiency. (Engine needs to be cooled). But using a stationary ICE vehicle to keep warm, not so good.

Given the figure above: 40% efficient at producing motion, so the other 60% produces heat and noise. Noise doesn't contain much energy, so clearly using a stationary ICE vehicle to produce heat is *more* efficient than using it to get somewhere.

QED.
Far too much heat just for the interior of the car.

We don’t really *need* to change our lifestyles; we need to stop releasing greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, which pretty much means stopping burning fossil fuels.

Hypothetically at least, EVs can do that. But only if you can produce, ship, power and scrap them in a way that doesn’t release CO2 (etc) - which is a big if.

There are plenty of other reasons for changing our lifestyles, but climate change per se isn’t one of them.
Hmmm as you say, possibly easier said than done. Does technology exist or is it going to be developed in the next few years to make/recycle steel without releasing CO2? There's also methane to worry about, a more powerful green house gas than CO2 I understand, and currently on the increase due to flesh manufacture..... and the melting of the tundra.
A change in lifestyle can have a big impact now. Waiting for governments and technology to solve the problem is rather risky don't you think?

On a broader level I'm not sure the entire population of the world can have the lifestyle we all want and expect the natural world to survive, regardless of climate change. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/21/human-race-just-001-of-all-life-but-has-destroyed-over-80-of-wild-mammals-study
Some pretty astonishing 'highlights' :
"Of all the mammals on Earth, 96% are livestock and humans, only 4% are wild mammals."
"Since the rise of human civilisation 83% of wild mammals have been lost (Absolute numbers not species thank goodness!)"

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #92 on: October 27, 2019, 08:28:18 pm »
I don't think we're going to get out of this without a big change in lifestyle, be it voluntary and controlled, through lack of option or in response to something (at least ostensibly) unrelated, such as war. "This" being not only climate change etc but the whole world as it now is.
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #93 on: October 27, 2019, 09:46:22 pm »
I don't think we're going to get out of this without a big change in lifestyle, be it voluntary and controlled, through lack of option or in response to something (at least ostensibly) unrelated, such as war. "This" being not only climate change etc but the whole world as it now is.

Yep. That pretty well sums it up.

However, the need to live now doesn’t stop, even if we are headed somewhere else of course.

Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #94 on: October 27, 2019, 09:48:10 pm »
Yep 'free' heat in an ICE vehicle due to thermal inefficiency. (Engine needs to be cooled). But using a stationary ICE vehicle to keep warm, not so good.

Given the figure above: 40% efficient at producing motion, so the other 60% produces heat and noise. Noise doesn't contain much energy, so clearly using a stationary ICE vehicle to produce heat is *more* efficient than using it to get somewhere.

QED.
Far too much heat just for the interior of the car.

We don’t really *need* to change our lifestyles; we need to stop releasing greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, which pretty much means stopping burning fossil fuels.

Hypothetically at least, EVs can do that. But only if you can produce, ship, power and scrap them in a way that doesn’t release CO2 (etc) - which is a big if.

There are plenty of other reasons for changing our lifestyles, but climate change per se isn’t one of them.
Hmmm as you say, possibly easier said than done. Does technology exist or is it going to be developed in the next few years to make/recycle steel without releasing CO2? There's also methane to worry about, a more powerful green house gas than CO2 I understand, and currently on the increase due to flesh manufacture..... and the melting of the tundra.
A change in lifestyle can have a big impact now. Waiting for governments and technology to solve the problem is rather risky don't you think?

On a broader level I'm not sure the entire population of the world can have the lifestyle we all want and expect the natural world to survive, regardless of climate change. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/21/human-race-just-001-of-all-life-but-has-destroyed-over-80-of-wild-mammals-study
Some pretty astonishing 'highlights' :
"Of all the mammals on Earth, 96% are livestock and humans, only 4% are wild mammals."
"Since the rise of human civilisation 83% of wild mammals have been lost (Absolute numbers not species thank goodness!)"


Methane is interesting. I do wonder if the focus on agricultural methane is a bit of a smokescreen for the very significant releases from the oil and gas industry, which Trump decided shouldn’t be measured any more...

Whatever, Cusco is right.

Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #95 on: October 27, 2019, 09:51:23 pm »
I don't think we're going to get out of this without a big change in lifestyle, be it voluntary and controlled, through lack of option or in response to something (at least ostensibly) unrelated, such as war. "This" being not only climate change etc but the whole world as it now is.

Yep. That pretty well sums it up.

However, the need to live now doesn’t stop, even if we are headed somewhere else of course.

An interesting parallel is that I don’t really believe in land ownership, but necessity means that I own a house. The alternative doesn’t resolve the ownership problem, just means I’d have to pay someone else rent to use what they ‘own’.

We need some very material change, but we need to be practical and we need to recognise that making the change will damage the interests/wealth of some very influential and amoral groups and organisations. They won’t make it easy.

Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #96 on: October 28, 2019, 10:12:03 am »
They aren't making it easy. But from a bottom up perspective, how do you persuade people they don't need a big new car to feel fulfilled? Much better to ride a bike all day long and sleep in a bus stop.

ian

  • feat. Undead Jess & Finestre, Queen of Hell
Re: Electric cars in bus lanes?
« Reply #97 on: October 28, 2019, 10:28:22 am »
I think there's a lot of 'they made me do it.' No one really made us dependent on cars, we volunteered. Sure, people were manipulated, but it wasn't subtle. I know loads of people who've moved out to the country and they'll tell anyone that they have no public transport and they need a fleet of large cars to survive. Undoubtedly they are reliant on having two cars but then they did choose to move to the places they live. No one made them do it, the same way no one made them buy huge cars (the most challenging driving conditions they'll typically face is the gravel driveway).

Sticks and carrots really, the cost of driving needs to reflect the actual costs of driving. There needs to be investment in alternatives (remember, driving is massively subsidised and no one expects it to make a 'profit'), and we need to reduce the inherent convenience of driving. We also need to be clear what the risks of driving are and there should be concomitant responsibilities in operating large, powerful machines. We have done everything in our power to make cars the only travel option while running down the alternatives. That can change but we have to want it to and we have to be willing to make the choices that reduce our dependency.
Support the Great Surrey Bear Census 2020