Author Topic: waterproof that'll last longer than goretex?  (Read 720 times)

waterproof that'll last longer than goretex?
« on: November 27, 2019, 09:34:15 am »
I'm a volunteer rowing coach, so spend 2-3 hours at a time cycling at low speed on a towpath probably 4 times a week.  I've had a couple of berhaus goretex waterproof jackets, they work great for about a year then suddenly give up being waterproof.  I've tried re-proofing but it only lasts about a month before we're back to useless.

Any suggestions for a type of jacket that'll keep the rain out for longer?  It doesnt need to be light or particularly breathable but I'd prefer a shell type so I can chose how many layers I wear under it.

Re: waterproof that'll last longer than goretex?
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2019, 09:48:40 am »
I've never had a Gortex or any other jacket lose it's waterproof, are you sure that's what's happening?  It's quite easy to test with a bucket or bowl by making a hollow and filling it. 
To answer the question - I have a basic Peter Storm waterproof that is still doing the job fine after three years, though wouldn't want to do too much cycling in it, around £30 from Blacks.

Re: waterproof that'll last longer than goretex?
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2019, 10:18:43 am »
I've never had a Gortex or any other jacket lose it's waterproof, are you sure that's what's happening?  It's quite easy to test with a bucket or bowl by making a hollow and filling it. 


well... it used to keep me dry with the water beading on the surface and running off, now water seems to soak in and I get wet.  Not sure I need to do another test?

Re: waterproof that'll last longer than goretex?
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2019, 11:13:16 am »
I've never had a Gortex or any other jacket lose it's waterproof, are you sure that's what's happening?  It's quite easy to test with a bucket or bowl by making a hollow and filling it. 


well... it used to keep me dry with the water beading on the surface and running off, now water seems to soak in and I get wet.  Not sure I need to do another test?
You've nothing to lose by trying it, I thought the same with a tent fly but was wrong.  The beading off aids the breathability, it doesn't have an effect on water penetration.  The wetting out will stop any chance of it breathing, but that'll be the same if you use a jacket that isn't breathable to start with. Gortex is made up of layers and the waterproof one gets that characteristic from the weave, it isn't a coating, the only way it's likely to lose that is by physically wearing it out, like where a rucksack strap rubs.

Re: waterproof that'll last longer than goretex?
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2019, 11:22:08 am »
I have to say I'm less confident in Berghaus jackets than I used to be. Mrs trekkers year old Berghaus Gore-Tex seems to be suffering the same fate as the OP. I'm going to be re-proofing it once we get our kitchen back in but it'll be the second time in a year.

The berghaus jacket I bought at the same time has been fine but it was a more expensive RRP and a discounted end of line item. I'm not sure if there are different levels of Gore Tex but Berghaus sell different levels of jacket.

I haven't tried any other brand of jacket made from Gore Tex so I can't say if it's the material or the manufacturer but it's an expensive way to find out.
Duct tape is magic and should be worshipped

Re: waterproof that'll last longer than goretex?
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2019, 11:27:40 am »
Gortex is made up of layers and the waterproof one gets that characteristic from the weave, it isn't a coating,

AFAIK "Goretex" gets its waterproofing properties from a sheet of PTFE that is stretched so that micro-pores open up, those pores being too small to allow water molecules through, but large enough for a degree of air permeability.

Paramo's "Nikwax Analogy" clothing relies on the weave of the fabrics, plus a wash in repellent, and are also (IMO) more comfotable garments without the fragility of lightweight goretex.

ETA I have a near 20 year old Paramo jacket that's still waterproof, by dint of regular re-proofing.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Re: waterproof that'll last longer than goretex?
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2019, 11:28:40 am »
I’d be happy in a ventile jacket for something like this.
Not cheap but it lasts and lasts and lasts

fuaran

  • rothair gasta
Re: waterproof that'll last longer than goretex?
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2019, 11:34:26 am »
Something like Helly Hansen Voss. Simple, tough, proper waterproof. Not really breathable.
https://www.hellyhansen.com/en_gb/voss-jacket-55267

Re: waterproof that'll last longer than goretex?
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2019, 11:38:36 am »
Before you spend any money - if it has a Gortex label, it's probably guaranteed waterproof for life, whoever the manufacturer of the garment. 

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: waterproof that'll last longer than goretex?
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2019, 01:52:23 pm »

I recommend Paramo jackets for this sort of thing. They aren't your traditional membrane based jacket, but rather use clever layering and hydrophobic nikwax coating. I used to buy a breathable jacket about every year for ~£80, then spent ~£200 on a Paramo Quito jacket, I wash it in nikwax techwash, and then reproof it about every 3 washes with TX direct. It's the most breathable waterproof I've ever had, and it's been going strong now for at least 5 years.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: waterproof that'll last longer than goretex?
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2019, 01:52:55 pm »
Paramo!  They last for yonks and are really comfortable too.

[X-post with QG]

Re: waterproof that'll last longer than goretex?
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2019, 02:00:06 pm »
Gortex is made up of layers and the waterproof one gets that characteristic from the weave, it isn't a coating,

AFAIK "Goretex" gets its waterproofing properties from a sheet of PTFE that is stretched so that micro-pores open up, those pores being too small to allow water molecules through, but large enough for a degree of air permeability.
The holes are big enough to let water vapour through, but not water droplets.
Rust never sleeps

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: waterproof that'll last longer than goretex?
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2019, 02:02:33 pm »
AFAIK "Goretex" gets its waterproofing properties from a sheet of PTFE that is stretched so that micro-pores open up, those pores being too small to allow water molecules through, but large enough for a degree of air permeability.
The holes are big enough to let water vapour through, but not water droplets.
[/quote]

Yay for surface tension.

A goretex membrane is basically a semi-permeable membrane, that allows vapour across much like osmosis. It requires a moisture gradient from one side to the other. So warm and moist inside, cold and dry outside. This is why bivvi bags are crap when used inside a tent...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: waterproof that'll last longer than goretex?
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2019, 02:24:24 pm »
Another plug for Paramo.    My Velez smock is still keeping me warm & dry.   I bought that for a trip to the Lofoten Islands in 2004.

Try cleaning the washing machine to get rid of any detergent build up, then wash the Gore-Tex in the Nikwak cleaning stuff & again with the TX Direct waterproofing stuff.   Some people recommend a tumble-dry or warm iron as well. 

https://www.nikwax.com/usblog/how-to-wash-your-gore-tex-rain-jacket/
Not fast & rarely furious

tweeting occasional in(s)anities as andrewxclark

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: waterproof that'll last longer than goretex?
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2019, 02:26:31 pm »
Another plug for Paramo.    My Velez smock is still keeping me warm & dry.   I bought that for a trip to the Lofoten Islands in 2004.

Try cleaning the washing machine to get rid of any detergent build up, then wash the Gore-Tex in the Nikwak cleaning stuff & again with the TX Direct waterproofing stuff.   Some people recommend a tumble-dry or warm iron as well. 

https://www.nikwax.com/usblog/how-to-wash-your-gore-tex-rain-jacket/

I just hand wash mine in a bucket, takes a couple of minutes, and saves me having to flush any soap residue from the washing machine.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: waterproof that'll last longer than goretex?
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2019, 02:27:13 pm »
thanks everyone!  I've got a paramo jacket! [am idiot] I went off it when I wore it in the lakes and it failed me badly under a heavy pack - apparently its a thing they all do because you compress the magic fluff inside it.  Its at the back of a drawer somewhere, I'll try it for coaching the next time it rains!

Cudzoziemiec

  • Dormant but requires tea
Re: waterproof that'll last longer than goretex?
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2019, 03:39:23 pm »
AFAIK "Goretex" gets its waterproofing properties from a sheet of PTFE that is stretched so that micro-pores open up, those pores being too small to allow water molecules through, but large enough for a degree of air permeability.
The holes are big enough to let water vapour through, but not water droplets.

Yay for surface tension.

A goretex membrane is basically a semi-permeable membrane, that allows vapour across much like osmosis. It requires a moisture gradient from one side to the other. So warm and moist inside, cold and dry outside. This is why bivvi bags are crap when used inside a tent...

J
[/quote]
This is why it's a miracle fabric:
"Then Goretex stretched out his hand over the sea; and the Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea into dry land, and the waters were divided. 22 So the children of YACF went into the midst of the sea on the dry ground, and the waters were a wall to them on their right hand and on their left"

Typical that there was an east wind – even Biblical marine cyclocross always had a headwind!
The unwilling rider and the one who leaves each control in turn without reluctance, with no desire to come back, obviously cannot be making the same journey, even though their brevets are identical.

Re: waterproof that'll last longer than goretex?
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2019, 04:43:15 pm »
I’d be happy in a ventile jacket for something like this.
Not cheap but it lasts and lasts and lasts

I was wearing mine today, it is >30 yrs old.

Re: Waterproof that'll last longer than Goretex?
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2019, 06:33:18 pm »
A further "feature" of traditional Goretex is the oleophobic/hydrophilic layer on the inside of the membrane (it's a TDI/polyethylene glycol prepolymer cured with water in case you're interested). This layer stops the oils from your sweat/skin bunging up the pores in the PTFE.
Keeping this layer clean is also key to maintaining the breathability of the fabric.
If Goretex appears to be leaking it's most likely condensation from the fabric not being able to get rid of the moisture vapour either through the outer DWR failing and allowing the surface to wet out or the inner coating getting clogged.

Good luck maintaining the water repellency of the DWR after you've washed the item. I can't and I've followed the instructions on garments and "chemicals" to the letter.
I wash DWR treated clothing in a bucket dedicated to the task (so no detergent, ever) then I use wash in "DWR" followed by spray-on when the garments are still damp.

I've used Nikwax's products. If anyone has had more success with other makes, please let me know.


mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: waterproof that'll last longer than goretex?
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2019, 08:32:59 pm »
I've had the same frustration with Goretex. Done the hand-wash thing, followed instructions ...

You could follow my strategy: buy something in Pertex (there are various flavours). It's vv nearly as good in spec terms and vvv cheaper - so I don't mind buying new every few years. I tend to do something clumsy to damage expensive stuff more often that that anyway - brambles, oily hands, etc etc!

I buy the very light cycling jackets - I can then adjust layers underneath accordingly, and wear them in a vast range of temps.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: waterproof that'll last longer than goretex?
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2019, 11:50:35 pm »
Another plug for Paramo.    My Velez smock is still keeping me warm & dry.   I bought that for a trip to the Lofoten Islands in 2004.

Try cleaning the washing machine to get rid of any detergent build up, then wash the Gore-Tex in the Nikwak cleaning stuff & again with the TX Direct waterproofing stuff.   Some people recommend a tumble-dry or warm iron as well. 

https://www.nikwax.com/usblog/how-to-wash-your-gore-tex-rain-jacket/

If you want a new Paramo, they do a £50 refund when you trade in your old one.  I just bought a Ciclo (similar to the Quito, a bit baggier but in nicer colours) which was reduced as they're selling them off, so with selling off discount plus the trade-in value of my aged Velez smock, it set me back less than a hundred squid. 

Re: waterproof that'll last longer than goretex?
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2019, 06:47:25 pm »
I’d be happy in a ventile jacket for something like this.
Not cheap but it lasts and lasts and lasts

Mike believe this.  I live outdoors both professionally and for fun.  I have goretex in various plys and weights, copycattex, paramo, barbour and ventile.  My favourite cycling weatherproofs for slow stuff like this are a PU  nylon Carradice Cape and a Hilltrek Ventile cycling jacket.  You will never be 100% bone dry as you have to factor sweat and condensation into the equation.  What you want is to feel dry and comfy.  As long as you are not spanking it there is not much to touch the overall experience of Ventile.

Re: Waterproof that'll last longer than Goretex?
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2019, 07:31:57 pm »
A further "feature" of traditional Goretex is the oleophobic/hydrophilic layer on the inside of the membrane (it's a TDI/polyethylene glycol prepolymer cured with water in case you're interested). This layer stops the oils from your sweat/skin bunging up the pores in the PTFE.
Keeping this layer clean is also key to maintaining the breathability of the fabric.
If Goretex appears to be leaking it's most likely condensation from the fabric not being able to get rid of the moisture vapour either through the outer DWR failing and allowing the surface to wet out or the inner coating getting clogged.

Good luck maintaining the water repellency of the DWR after you've washed the item. I can't and I've followed the instructions on garments and "chemicals" to the letter.
I wash DWR treated clothing in a bucket dedicated to the task (so no detergent, ever) then I use wash in "DWR" followed by spray-on when the garments are still damp.

I've used Nikwax's products. If anyone has had more success with other makes, please let me know.
I'd a vague recollection that you had something to do with polymers and the like in a professional capacity.
Turns out I may've been right  ;)