Author Topic: Pbp finishers list  (Read 5316 times)

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #100 on: January 15, 2020, 06:26:52 am »
The rule says the rider must get to each control before the closing time written in the brevet card. That includes the finish control. A velo speciale could have crossed the PBP finish line a couple of hours after their 90 hours were up and still have been ahead of their brevet card's Rambouillet closing time, which was based on the very last 90hr group's finish time. Is that clear enough?

That's not what they did though. According to the data, basically everyone who arrived within 80/84/90 hours of their start time was homologated, and anyone who arrived later was (edit:) NOT homologated. Lateness at intermediate controls was completely ignored.

Essentially the numbers in this year's brevet cards were nonsense that had no bearing on anything.

Yes, the rule was meaningless this year and accordingly wasn't enforced. That rule was generally complied with and enforced in historical PBPs and, if the brevet cards were correctly printed, could justifiably have been enforced this year.

Completely ignored isn't quite correct. Some riders arriving quite late at intermediate controls this year did have difficulty getting their brevet cards stamped. Surely you've also read some of those accounts.

Did you miss the bit where I said
"OK, let's do the pedantic thing and go by the letter of the rule."
in reply to Wycombewheeler's
"The rules stated dong be after the closing time at printed on brevet card, so talk of being stopped for being outtsidevtfe time for your group is needless. As if someone on a control desk is going to do the mental maths and retain your card when they just want yo check everyone through as quickly as possible."

My statement that you've quoted showed the logical conclusion of following that rule with the times actually printed on the brevet cards this year. Riders in early groups would have had more time to complete PBP than those in later groups. Obviously that rule could not have been followed this year, for reasons of unfairness.

By the way, there were PBPers homologated with more than 90 hour finishes in 1991 (181), 1999 (104) and 2003 (26). I don't have the justifications for all of them. In PBP99, an unexpected roadworks diversion meant an extra two hours were allowed, which accounts for quite a few folk.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #101 on: January 15, 2020, 06:32:10 am »
I'm really not sure why they bother keeping such a daft rule as intermediate control cut-off times.
It would be fairer if they just officially state that it's a guideline rather than a hard and fast rule.
I agree that it's less fair on riders in last group, although even without the rule there is no getting away from the fact that their arrival time is always going to be closer than the physical closing time of the control, or the time it runs out of food, etc.

I gave the background for that rule upthread and I suggest you read it again. Intermediate control opening and closing times developed from UAF schedules for brevets with specific times for arriving at and departing from controls.

ACP feels that riders get slower as the event gets longer and the varying PBP minimum speed limit reflects that. PBP has been a randonneur brevet since 1931 and the minimum speed requirements have changed over the decades (originally 96 hours). LEL's constant minimum average speed doesn't result in a lower DNF rate overall, though it may be more comfortable for slightly faster riders. Slower riders are just encouraged to time out on the return leg by not making enough progress outbound.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #102 on: January 15, 2020, 06:42:29 am »
Here's a theory, and it is only a theory, maybe someone can prove/disprove: if anyone finishes with a minute to spare, if they have slept at all, or even not gone a constant speed all the time, they must by definition have been out of time at some point.
(That point may not necessarily be a control, but it could be argued that is a moot point.)
The point where they were most out of time being just after they have woken up from their last sleep.

Whether they are out of time by the next control, then simply becomes a case of where they can place their sleep stop, and thus imho limits choice of location unnecessarily. Just after a control and you might be ok, but if there's an ideal sleep stop about 5km before a control it's a PITA.

Rocco's Rocket rode PBP quite quickly (with decent sleep stops) some years ago but they sat at a cafe near the finish for ages to collect Willesden members who then ceremonially rode to the finish in a huge bunch to great acclaim. They finished with more than a minute to spare but could have complied with your hypothetical situation without ever being out of time. The ride from the cafe to the finish line just needed to be slower than the minimum average speed.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #103 on: January 15, 2020, 10:05:31 am »
Yep, there are a myriad ways you can do a brevet and finish with a minute to spare and never be out of time at any point. Ben’s theory holds about as much water as a sieve.

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #104 on: January 15, 2020, 11:18:53 am »
Individual start times were only pre-determined from 2015 onwards. My experience before this system was introduced was in 2007 and 2011 - cards were stamped with a start time based on your position in a queue (15 minute blocks as now, IIRC).

To pull a rider for being late at a control would have required the mental arithmetic alluded to above. I don't know if people in early waves were having cards pulled or not. I honestly don't think they were looking that closely. I only finished with 2h10 in hand in 2007 (90h) and I must have been tight at Mortagne. I didn't have time to sleep there.

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #105 on: January 15, 2020, 02:11:30 pm »
Yep, there are a myriad ways you can do a brevet and finish with a minute to spare and never be out of time at any point. Ben’s theory holds about as much water as a sieve.

Agreed. But...

By AUK rules it's impossible not to be technically "out of time" right at the start of the ride.

By ACP rules it's not impossible.

The difference is that AUK has just a minimum and a maximum average speed. So, if you don't break the rules by starting early, then at exactly the time the ride starts you need to instantly accelerate from 0kph to the minimum average speed or you'll be behind the required pace.

ACP has different rules for the first 60km.

Quote
From: https://rusa.org/pages/acp-brevet-control-times-calculator

In the French variation, the maximum time limit for a control within the first 60km is based on 20 km/hr, plus 1 hour

Under this rule you can start up to an hour later than the official start time and not be out of time, and you've still got 4 hours to get to the 60km point.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #106 on: January 15, 2020, 02:15:15 pm »
Nobody says you need to be stationary when the brevet starts. You could cross the start line at exactly the start time while travelling above the minimum average speed. This is all angels dancing on pin head stuff though.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #107 on: January 15, 2020, 02:48:15 pm »
Ok then, my theory holds IF a rider's moving average stays the same throughout the ride. Which although their actual moving speed probably slows down a bit, is less far from the truth than you might think because I would hazard a guess that most of the slowdown in the later stages comes from simply stopping more, not from actually moving more slowly on the road.
It is what it is. It's not what it's not, so it must be what it is.

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #108 on: January 15, 2020, 05:56:02 pm »
Ok then, my theory holds IF a rider's moving average stays the same throughout the ride. Which although their actual moving speed probably slows down a bit, is less far from the truth than you might think because I would hazard a guess that most of the slowdown in the later stages comes from simply stopping more, not from actually moving more slowly on the road.

I'm sorry, I don't get the point you're trying to make.

If someone moves at a 20kph average then it's quite easy to both grab some sleep (not huge amounts I grant) and not be out of time at any particular control or other point on the ride, it's roughly how I used to ride Audaxes. If I was lucky then on the early part of the ride I may have a 25kph moving average, which means I get a bit more time in hand.

[EDIT] Oh, I see, if they finish with a minute to spare. Well, yes, unless they get to within a few hundred yards of the finish with hours in hand and then decide to have a long stop/sleep and then wake up and finish off the ride with a minute to spare. So the theory doesn't really hold up completely.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #109 on: January 16, 2020, 12:49:59 am »

I'm sorry, I don't get the point you're trying to make.

If someone moves at a 20kph average then it's quite easy to both grab some sleep (not huge amounts I grant) and not be out of time at any particular control or other point on the ride, it's roughly how I used to ride Audaxes. If I was lucky then on the early part of the ride I may have a 25kph moving average, which means I get a bit more time in hand.


The wider point is sort of that a rider who manages to achieve the same or similar moving average throughout the ride but wants to maximize sleep* is likely to be out of time at some point, so they have to jump through hoops (that imho should be unnecessary) by restricting the location of their sleep stop in order to keep that out of time zone away from a control.
And, ergo, the rule does that rider a disservice.

*By riding to a schedule that allows them finish close to the cut off



It is what it is. It's not what it's not, so it must be what it is.