Author Topic: Pbp finishers list  (Read 5311 times)

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #75 on: January 11, 2020, 08:06:25 am »
I have a vauge memory of discovering during the ride that it had been announced that due to weather conditions  ??? ??? ??? ??? you only had to be on time at Brest and Ramboulliet.

I'm still baffled by the apparently existence of hills, head wind and the fabled section with a rough surface.

Aye, the headwind that was so smooth and gust free that you literally didn’t know it was there.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #76 on: January 11, 2020, 12:00:54 pm »
I have a vauge memory of discovering during the ride that it had been announced that due to weather conditions  ??? ??? ??? ??? you only had to be on time at Brest and Ramboulliet.

I'm still baffled by the apparently existence of hills, head wind and the fabled section with a rough surface.

Aye, the headwind that was so smooth and gust free that you literally didn’t know it was there.

Sounds about right, I possibly didn't notice any loss of speed to it due to the gains of decent road surfaces.


LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #77 on: January 11, 2020, 10:22:29 pm »
Article 14 : Opening and Closing Time of the Controls
Passage of the participants within the schedule of closure indicated on brevet cards is compulsory for every control. Opening hours will be also indicated but for information only.

As I recall the Brevet card just had the control's open time for the entire start group a rider was in. I wonder if it was intended at one point to have personalized opening/closing times too?

If the brevet card had accurate opening and closing times personalised for the rider, then I’d have no problems with the rule being enforced. Given that the control closing times were only accurate if you were in the final group for each time limit, then it seems a bit harsh to follow the letter of the law. My control closing times were more than a couple of hours earlier than what were printed on our brevet cards.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #78 on: January 11, 2020, 10:30:53 pm »
I'm genuinely amazed at how close some people ran it overall but, also, how little concern there is about being out of time at intermediate checks.

It may not have been deliberate.

We only found out during our second stop in Carhaix that the control closing times on our brevet cards were for the last 90hr group, rather than the first 90hr group that we were actually in. It would have been quite easy for us to arrive late before that point, though I think we might have stayed in front of closing times, by luck. Our own fault for assuming it would be the same as 2015 when the printed closing times were for the first group, rather than reading the instructions.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #79 on: January 12, 2020, 09:21:37 am »
I'm genuinely amazed at how close some people ran it overall but, also, how little concern there is about being out of time at intermediate checks.

It may not have been deliberate.

We only found out during our second stop in Carhaix that the control closing times on our brevet cards were for the last 90hr group, rather than the first 90hr group that we were actually in. It would have been quite easy for us to arrive late before that point, though I think we might have stayed in front of closing times, by luck. Our own fault for assuming it would be the same as 2015 when the printed closing times were for the first group, rather than reading the instructions.

That’s interesting.  I wrote my plan out using the closing times I found on the website before heading out to France.  I’m not sure I ever back checked this against the card.  I’ll have a look when it comes back.

cygnet

  • I'm part of the association
Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #80 on: January 12, 2020, 10:38:19 am »
As a refusenik I kept my card. Closing times in it are written for a 5pm start Group E which matches with LWaB.

That would be bad if you started in group V and assumed control times were for group F  :o
I Said, I've Got A Big Stick

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #81 on: January 12, 2020, 01:25:00 pm »
Any rider embarking on PBP (or other long ride) who knows they are anywhere near being a 'full value rider' would surely prepare properly: not just the obligatory qualification SR but understanding control closing times and the implications for the riding speeds needed. This might reasonably include preparing and carrying a simple, personal, visible or easily-available-to-access list of the controls with their closing time (data well advertised by PBP - with a bit of additional maths) and recognise that the closing times at the first control after each planned sleep stop are likely to be critical.
UK riders are used to brevets having accurate open/close times printed on the card - AUK/OI system seems robust: maybe this experience lulled some UK riders into a false sense of security. But relying on times printed on the (forin) PBP brevet (which riders won't get till registration at Rambouillet) builds in risk - as we have seen - and the need for arithmetic when tired. Requiring riders to maintain a significantly higher average speed to Brest complicates those sums - and even then the required speeds on the way east seemed non-linear.

It seemed generally understood before the ride that the French would be taking a stereotypical approach to the 'closing time' rules: write them down and not enforce them - at least until the 84 hour starts were due to come through (Y start closing time).

Do people know of riders whose cards were 'pulled' at controls? On our ride back to the ferry, snacking outside a supermarket, we met another rider  (84hr Y) who'd been right on the edge, arrived at Mortagne (with 200km to go on the last morning) with the control stamping desk unmanned and things being dismantled, managed to find 'someone' to sign and 'time/date' his brevet and cracked on, getting to the chateau with minutes to spare (Dreux was less of a problem notwithstanding he was still well out of time there).

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #82 on: January 12, 2020, 04:51:55 pm »
I finished PBP Randonneur #6 last time and my stoker #4. Yes, we should have read the instructions which stated the actual opening and closing times for Group F. We didn’t ‘prepare properly’ because we assumed the brevet card times were the same as 2015, which listed them for Group F. The brevet cards didn’t. This time, the opening times were for Group F but the closing times were for Group V. A newbie PBPer (can’t remember his name right now but we’re grateful for his intervention) told us the reality the second time in Carhaix. After that, we just did rough mental calcs along the way to stay ahead of closing times and finished with two hours to spare. Almost exactly the same finish time as in 2015.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #83 on: January 12, 2020, 06:00:45 pm »
Any rider embarking on PBP (or other long ride) who knows they are anywhere near being a 'full value rider' would surely prepare properly: not just the obligatory qualification SR but understanding control closing times and the implications for the riding speeds needed. This might reasonably include preparing and carrying a simple, personal, visible or easily-available-to-access list of the controls with their closing time (data well advertised by PBP - with a bit of additional maths) and recognise that the closing times at the first control after each planned sleep stop are likely to be critical.

That just about sums me up. As a 'full value rider' on my first ride over 600km I knew I needed to do everything I could to reduce the mental load on the ride and make sure I met all the closing times.

I had a copy of the official routesheet on the top of my barbag at all times. This was anotated with my closing times, which were checked against the brevet card times when I picked it up at registration. I reached all the controls within time but left a few after my closing times expecting to make up time before the next control.

A newbie PBPer (can’t remember his name right now but we’re grateful for his intervention) told us the reality the second time in Carhaix. .

I think that might have been me. I saw you at a few of the controls, but not on the road as you were travelling much faster and presumably getting more sleep!

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #84 on: January 12, 2020, 06:13:15 pm »
UK riders are used to brevets having accurate open/close times printed on the card - AUK/OI system seems robust: maybe this experience lulled some UK riders into a false sense of security. But relying on times printed on the (forin) PBP brevet (which riders won't get till registration at Rambouillet) builds in risk - as we have seen - and the need for arithmetic when tired. Requiring riders to maintain a significantly higher average speed to Brest complicates those sums - and even then the required speeds on the way east seemed non-linear.

It's worth remembering that not every country enforces control closure times anyway. RNL don't care. As long as you are in time at the end, then it doesn't matter. Same seems to be true for at least some Belgians and Danes. This can lead to a false sense of security if all your rides have been RNL rides, and PBP is your first ride where closure times might matter.

We do make sure to print the right times on the brevet cards tho.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #85 on: January 13, 2020, 07:17:18 am »
I think that might have been me. I saw you at a few of the controls, but not on the road as you were travelling much faster and presumably getting more sleep!

The more sleep may have been true. We were balancing our time on the bike and sleeping to prevent my stoker getting Shermer's Neck. Not as important as for the captain but still better to avoid. Thanks again for your assistance, Neil.

Checking the timings, it looks like we checked in at least an hour (usually more) ahead of closing times all the way round.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #86 on: January 13, 2020, 07:11:51 pm »
The rules stated dong be after the closing time at printed on brevet card, so talk of being stopped for being outtsidevtfe time for your group is needless. As if someone on a control desk is going to do the mental maths and retain your card when they just want yo check everyone through as quickly as possible.
   Eddington  87 miles

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #87 on: January 13, 2020, 07:25:03 pm »
OK, let’s do the pedantic thing and go by the letter of the rule.

It matters if you are in the last group for your time. That PBP19 brevet card time limit is then a hard limit for you. Five minutes after the printed time and you are out. Not so for the rider in the first group.

Is it fair that the first 90 hr group gets several hours extra time compared to the last 90hr group? That extra time isn’t just for intermediate controls. It applies to the finish line too. That 90hr time limit can vary (depending on your start group) to more than 92hrs. My friend who (correctly) got HDed for being 15 minutes late at the finish line would have something to say about that.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #88 on: January 13, 2020, 07:49:27 pm »
I agree that it’s not fair. But was the rule applied this strictly? I don’t know but I was told what mattered was 80h at the finish not 81h we on the card.

The problem with this kind of thing is no one knows what the rule really is.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #89 on: January 13, 2020, 07:54:26 pm »
I believe that the 90hr (or 80 or 84) limit at the finish was applied pretty strictly (though there are always edge cases). My friend HDed PBP19 by 15 minutes after completing 5 x PBP inside time.

I am a little annoyed that the rule seems to be being completely ignored at intermediate controls (riders weren’t doing that two decades ago) but the conflict between the rule and the printed brevet card limit makes that rule untenable for intermediate controls in 2019. If the brevet card limits matched each rider’s start group, enforcing the time limits at intermediate controls would be entirely fair.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #90 on: January 13, 2020, 10:23:58 pm »
Is it fair that the first 90 hr group gets several hours extra time compared to the last 90hr group? That extra time isn’t just for intermediate controls. It applies to the finish line too. That 90hr time limit can vary (depending on your start group) to more than 92hrs.
I confess I don't follow that. We can see how earlier starters have more time (per times in the 90 hour brevet) at intermediary controls. But how does 'extra time' "appl(y) to the finish line too"? And how, in practice, can the "90hr time limit vary (depending on your start group) to more than 92hrs." Start 1715 specials: 90 hours up at 1115 on Thursday plus the odd minute that the rider was later than 1715 over the timing mat at the gate onto the road.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #91 on: January 13, 2020, 10:37:05 pm »
The rule says the rider must get to each control before the closing time written in the brevet card. That includes the finish control. A velo speciale could have crossed the PBP finish line a couple of hours after their 90 hours were up and still have been ahead of their brevet card’s Rambouillet closing time, which was based on the very last 90hr group’s finish time. Is that clear enough?

Basically, in future, PBP should issue brevet cards with control closing times personalised for each start time. Otherwise that particular rule is meaningless and riders will ignore intermediate control times to an even greater extent in future.

The concept of varying min. average speeds for outbound and return legs of PBP is intended to match the average rider’s physical degradation profile. Riders generally get slower through long brevets and this speed profile nudges riders to not linger outbound. There is a current Arrivee article about a couple that took too long to get to Brest and hoped to negative split to get back in time. Of course, that didn’t happen.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #92 on: January 14, 2020, 09:44:55 am »
The rule says the rider must get to each control before the closing time written in the brevet card. That includes the finish control. A velo speciale could have crossed the PBP finish line a couple of hours after their 90 hours were up and still have been ahead of their brevet card’s Rambouillet closing time, which was based on the very last 90hr group’s finish time. Is that clear enough?

That’s not what they did though. According to the data, basically everyone who arrived within 80/84/90 hours of their start time was homologated, and anyone who arrived later was (edit:) NOT homologated. Lateness at intermediate controls was completely ignored.

Essentially the numbers in this year’s brevet cards were nonsense that had no bearing on anything.

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #93 on: January 14, 2020, 09:59:46 am »
The rule says the rider must get to each control before the closing time written in the brevet card. That includes the finish control. A velo speciale could have crossed the PBP finish line a couple of hours after their 90 hours were up and still have been ahead of their brevet card’s Rambouillet closing time, which was based on the very last 90hr group’s finish time. Is that clear enough?

That’s not what they did though. According to the data, basically everyone who arrived within 80/84/90 hours of their start time was homologated, and anyone who arrived later was homologated. Lateness at intermediate controls was completely ignored.

Essentially the numbers in this year’s brevet cards were nonsense that had no bearing on anything.
Unless you were on the 84hr start and then it gave warning know when the control would be closed, with no guarantee of stamping.
   Eddington  87 miles

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #94 on: January 14, 2020, 11:29:10 am »
I'm really not sure why they bother keeping such a daft rule as intermediate control cut-off times.
It would be fairer if they just officially state that it's a guideline rather than a hard and fast rule.
I agree that it's less fair on riders in last group, although even without the rule there is no getting away from the fact that their arrival time is always going to be closer than the physical closing time of the control, or the time it runs out of food, etc.


It is what it is. It's not what it's not, so it must be what it is.

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #95 on: January 14, 2020, 12:44:11 pm »
The rule says the rider must get to each control before the closing time written in the brevet card. That includes the finish control. A velo speciale could have crossed the PBP finish line a couple of hours after their 90 hours were up and still have been ahead of their brevet card’s Rambouillet closing time, which was based on the very last 90hr group’s finish time. Is that clear enough?
https://www.paris-brest-paris.org/index2.php?lang=en&cat=randonnee&page=reglement
Article 14 of the regulations pasted below.
"Article 14 : Opening and Closing Time of the Controls
Passage of the participants within the schedule of closure indicated on brevet cards is compulsory for every control. Opening hours will be also indicated but for information only. Only a serious material incident may be accepted as justification for late arrival, and the delay must be recovered at the latest within the next two controls."

"An [early starter could have finished in 92 hours] and still have been ahead of their brevet card’s Rambouillet closing time." But they would have been NH (HD).
Are there (really) instances of early starters being homologated having taken longer than their allotted time (80/90/84) without special reasons/pleading eg @vorsprung? (Note: @grams has omitted a 'not' in his comment.)
As I said with regard to intermediate controls: "the French would be taking a stereotypical approach to the 'closing time' rules: write them down and not enforce them". And that was exactly the approach. I agree that it would be easy to just print brevets by batches, for each start time, with correct control closing times thereon.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #96 on: January 14, 2020, 01:29:58 pm »
Specific times or not on the brevet card the French would still reserve their right to apply them as they seem fit.



Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk


Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #97 on: January 14, 2020, 05:57:20 pm »
It would be fairer if they just officially state that it's a guideline rather than a hard and fast rule.

But that might cause the LEL (2017) problem with too many riders dawdling, mistakenly thinking they can make up time later.

As a noob, thinking I had to respect control times certainly kept me "honest" and pressing on rather than easing off - and with only 30 mins in hand at the end this was probably a Good Thing for me. If I had one criticism it was that I thought the extra time could be better amortized over the return: too much extra time was injected into the final two legs, where it wasn't so necessary.

Perhaps there is method in this inscrutable Gallic rules madness? The field is encouraged along by the potential threat of riders being DNF's for late controlling, but also the number of finishers is maximized.

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #98 on: January 14, 2020, 07:30:34 pm »
Reducing dawdling and getting people to halfway in less than half the time is great, but where it falls down is if someone takes 3 1hour sleeps at consecutive controls for fear of being late at the next control, instead of one 3hour sleep which would be more beneficial, take less time and be cheaper.

I thinks it's a reasonable statement that people will not negative split the event, but there is enough time in a day to catch up on sleep time.
   Eddington  87 miles

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #99 on: January 14, 2020, 08:15:51 pm »

But that might cause the LEL (2017) problem with too many riders dawdling, mistakenly thinking they can make up time later.



Why is that a problem?

If the answer is "because if they dawdle they will eventually be out of time at the finish", then surely the objective of preventing them dawdling is still achieved if you say "we recommend that in order to finish on time, you should arrive here by xx:xx."

If they ignore the recommendations then that's their own lookout, but if they know what they're doing, let them.

I don't buy anyone would dawdle to such an extent that they will be out of time at the finish with only recommended intermediate control timings, but wouldn't dawdle if they said they might enforce them but in reality never did (as is the case now).

Here's a theory, and it is only a theory, maybe someone can prove/disprove: if anyone finishes with a minute to spare, if they have slept at all, or even not gone a constant speed all the time, they must by definition have been out of time at some point.
(That point may not necessarily be a control, but it could be argued that is a moot point.)
The point where they were most out of time being just after they have woken up from their last sleep.

Whether they are out of time by the next control, then simply becomes a case of where they can place their sleep stop, and thus imho limits choice of location unnecessarily. Just after a control and you might be ok, but if there's an ideal sleep stop about 5km before a control it's a PITA.
It is what it is. It's not what it's not, so it must be what it is.