Author Topic: Road designers suck  (Read 7424 times)

Re: Road designers suck
« Reply #50 on: January 22, 2020, 08:10:38 pm »
Parking fines are £100 a pop now.
They have changed the machines, so they may have boosted the prices, but it was £4 for 2 hours on St Giles until just before Christmas. It's slightly cheaper in Jericho. It's significantly more expensive in the Westgate (not that the cost stops it getting so full the queue to get in clogs Oxpens road).
It's £2 to park for up to 11 hours at the park and ride, and £2.80 for a 1 person return on the bus.  Which is a cheek given it's £3.60 on the #8 and #9 busses that go to the housing estates either side of Thornhill Park and Ride.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Road designers suck
« Reply #51 on: January 22, 2020, 08:27:26 pm »
Wow, Oxford has changed since my days of living there then.  Back in my day (1989-1993) it was cheaper to park illegally and risk a fine than pay for one of the car parks or meters.  Iirc the parking fine was about £16 back then but the spaces were £12 a day.  So if you managed a couple of days of getting away with it....  (I didn't drive there, it was just what was known). Last time I went back properly 10 years or so ago, the city centre car parking charges had risen commensurately with the time and were similarly eye-watering (trust me £12 a day in the early 90s was huge).
Where are these spaces that are cheaper than the £4.80 (I think) I had to pay at Peartree Park and Ride a couple of weeks ago?

I don't know if it's just urban legend, but at one of the UK universities the student body realised that campus security only actually owned one wheel clamp. So they bought an old banger, pushed it onto campus, let it get clamped, then parked where the hell they liked, content in the knowledge that they couldn't be clamped... Dunno if true, but I like the story.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

MikeFromLFE

  • Previously known as Millimole
Re: Road designers suck
« Reply #52 on: January 22, 2020, 09:55:42 pm »
Today's news story from my corner of the provinces seems to illustrate some of the above issues
https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/local-news/council-decision-allow-hundreds-more-3762185
Yes, it's a historic site (in that it's been in use for a very long time - precendence seems to be the rule
Yes, there is widespread and longstanding avoidance of planning conditions (and I've been a 'victim' of one of these bloody great transporters on a narrow country lane thereabouts)
No, there is no chance of any enforcement. At all.
No, of course no one is going to suggest that the operators of the site might please like to pay (!) for a suitable road link to their depot, or road improvements through the villages - oh no!
As for the suggestions that the company might actually use the trackers fitted to the lorries, or even put up CCTV to monitor their own vehicles - well! That would seem to be a step much too far.
 
I confidently predict there will be much hand wringing and then bugger all will be done - except that the site operators will max out the movements to and from the site, villagers will suffer from increased transporter movements and increased traffic from the increased number of employees on the site (public transport to Bruntingthorpe? - don't make me giggle).

As I learned to my cost - getting involved in local planning consultations (objections) is a time consuming, and frustrating occupation - particularly when you find that the 'conditions' imposed are ignored, and the council's officials then refuse to take action because 'you're the only one complaining'.
Too many angry people - breathe & relax.

Re: Road designers suck
« Reply #53 on: January 22, 2020, 09:57:03 pm »
The complex of flats where I live has more than adequate car parking space,  I've never seen it full.  This may be because we are so close to Liverpool city centre that everyone walks.


It also means we have a regular issue with staff & students from University of Liverpool which is directly adjacent, using us as a free car park.   The same residents who complain about this are the same ones who complained when we closed the gates & made the place access via key fob only.  The machinery for the gates was too noisy.... :facepalm:


I believe we are no longer allowed to clamp the buggers either. 
Not fast & rarely furious

tweeting occasional in(s)anities as andrewxclark

ian

  • feat. Undead Jess & Finestre, Queen of Hell
Re: Road designers suck
« Reply #54 on: January 22, 2020, 10:32:43 pm »
I always wonder why – if housing is in such short supply* – councils don't just covenant non-car ownership. Is there a reason why a development has to support any parking? There's a big proposal in our little Surrey commuter town to overhaul the main shopping precinct, add flats, a cinema etc. which, of course, now rests faces a bleating chorus of 'what about the parking?' The development would be opposite the station and the bus stops, the town centre has shops, two supermarkets, etc. Not owning a car wouldn't have a significant impact on anyone living there. It would free additional space. And of course, having several hundred people who can't simply drive off to Croydon or Redhill would make them more dependent on the local high street and encourage locality.

*housing itself isn't really in short supply, affordable housing where people want it is. Those are different problems, but developers and governments conflate them.
Support the Great Surrey Bear Census 2020

Re: Road designers suck
« Reply #55 on: January 22, 2020, 10:38:22 pm »
They do that here (Islington). Residents of new developments aren't entitled to resident's parking permits, and given the whole borough and majority of adjacent boroughs are CPZs, that makes owning a car impractical.

(at least unless you find a loophole, which I'm sure some people must do)

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Road designers suck
« Reply #56 on: January 22, 2020, 11:03:54 pm »
There's an area of non-car ownership covenant in the centre of Bristol, too. And it seems it does mean non-ownership; someone was prosecuted for keeping a car outside the area.
This ain't really your life, ain't nothing but a movie
Ain't nothing but a badly written novel

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Road designers suck
« Reply #57 on: January 22, 2020, 11:08:43 pm »
There are all sorts of stupid conflicts within local government about RPZs as well.  At one stage, Oxford City Council introduced RPZs in Headington because they wanted people to use the Park and Ride instead of clogging up the roads driving to where parking was free (and cheaper to get the the bus). Oxfordshire County Council observed this, and then made every resident pay for their parking permit. Their reasoning was that in other parts of the county, the parking permit was introduced by request from the residents, and therefore a charging scheme was set up to pay for it!

Not sure I understand this. Was the city issuing permits for free? When you say "every resident" does this mean the county literally charged every resident for a permit, a bit like a component of council tax, even if they had no car? Or something else?
This ain't really your life, ain't nothing but a movie
Ain't nothing but a badly written novel

Re: Road designers suck
« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2020, 05:00:43 am »
As I learned to my cost - getting involved in local planning consultations (objections) is a time consuming, and frustrating occupation - particularly when you find that the 'conditions' imposed are ignored, and the council's officials then refuse to take action because 'you're the only one complaining'.

I got involved in challenging a local college who wanted to remove a footpath from crossing their grounds. The Ramblers and another national group got involved, and were able to bring in people with the knowledge to make the challenge stick. I would think any planned development being challenged would benefit from getting a recognised national group involved, perhaps FoE or similar.

Eddington: 129 miles

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Road designers suck
« Reply #59 on: January 23, 2020, 06:07:01 am »
Often those fighting a planning application have no, or little, funds. Those applying tend to be in the opposite state. Unless you have help (like you suggest) proper advice and representation will probably cost five figure sums.
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: Road designers suck
« Reply #60 on: January 23, 2020, 07:54:14 am »
I always wonder why – if housing is in such short supply* – councils don't just covenant non-car ownership. Is there a reason why a development has to support any parking? There's a big proposal in our little Surrey commuter town to overhaul the main shopping precinct, add flats, a cinema etc. which, of course, now rests faces a bleating chorus of 'what about the parking?' The development would be opposite the station and the bus stops, the town centre has shops, two supermarkets, etc. Not owning a car wouldn't have a significant impact on anyone living there. It would free additional space. And of course, having several hundred people who can't simply drive off to Croydon or Redhill would make them more dependent on the local high street and encourage locality.

*housing itself isn't really in short supply, affordable housing where people want it is. Those are different problems, but developers and governments conflate them.

Has happened in Norwich.  Residents have access to club cars.
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

ian

  • feat. Undead Jess & Finestre, Queen of Hell
Re: Road designers suck
« Reply #61 on: January 23, 2020, 09:25:29 am »
Sadly, parking seems a sine qua non in Surrey and to suggest otherwise a condition of madness. Some of the streets near the town centre are the worst for being snarled by parked cars, even in the evenings, so you can't blame sneaky commuters. These are households within a minute or two walk of all the facilities (and probably the same people who complain about the decline of the town centre). One of those streets was the one I picked up the complaint about 'double yellows' and that access by emergency vehicles shouldn't be at the 'expense of parking spaces.'

Those are people who are literally willing to die for their parking space.
Support the Great Surrey Bear Census 2020

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Road designers suck
« Reply #62 on: January 23, 2020, 09:37:55 am »
Somebody literally did die because an ambulance couldn't get through in a street less than a mile from me last summer. And that was parking in officially marked spaces. There must be countless other instances we don't hear of or remember.
This ain't really your life, ain't nothing but a movie
Ain't nothing but a badly written novel

caerau

  • SR x 3 - PBP fail but 1090 km - hey - not too bad
Re: Road designers suck
« Reply #63 on: January 23, 2020, 09:48:04 am »
Sadly, parking seems a sine qua non in Surrey and to suggest otherwise a condition of madness. Some of the streets near the town centre are the worst for being snarled by parked cars, even in the evenings, so you can't blame sneaky commuters. These are households within a minute or two walk of all the facilities (and probably the same people who complain about the decline of the town centre). One of those streets was the one I picked up the complaint about 'double yellows' and that access by emergency vehicles shouldn't be at the 'expense of parking spaces.'

Those are people who are literally willing to die for their parking space.


Willing for someone else to die.
It's a reverse Elvis thing.

caerau

  • SR x 3 - PBP fail but 1090 km - hey - not too bad
Re: Road designers suck
« Reply #64 on: January 23, 2020, 09:49:03 am »
They should fit ambulances and fire engines with those snow-plough things they put on the front of US trains.




...Or bazookas.
It's a reverse Elvis thing.

Re: Road designers suck
« Reply #65 on: January 23, 2020, 10:14:26 am »
I think that I may have aluded in an earlier post to what can happen when  emergency services cannot get their vehicle(s) from point A to point B, on account of (legally) parked vehicles preventing them from doing so.

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: Road designers suck
« Reply #66 on: January 23, 2020, 10:36:27 am »
They should fit ambulances and fire engines with those snow-plough things they put on the front of US trains.




...Or bazookas.

Fire engines are designed to be able to push their way through obstructions - and quite often do.  There was a case in Cambridge a year or so ago where a fire engine pushed through parked cars to get to get to a shout.  Some were legally/properly parked - others weren't.  The owners of the legally parked vehicles were compensated by the fire brigade's* insurers - the owners of the illegally parked vehicles to told to go and whistle...

The new proposed** mandatory design specification for ambulances in England includes reinforcement to enable them to push through obstructions such as illegally parked cars where this might be practicable.





* Strictly speaking the 'Fire and Rescue Service'.

** It's proposed... but some of the various ambulance trusts are arguing the toss as they have their preferred providers... the usual NHS 'devolution/local choice' that often gets in teh way of meaningful reform.
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

ian

  • feat. Undead Jess & Finestre, Queen of Hell
Re: Road designers suck
« Reply #67 on: January 23, 2020, 11:05:59 am »
My understanding is that if you're illegally parked, insurers won't pay up regardless (if they know). I'm sure we were told that at our last place when we had to clear badly parked cars on the access road (and also, as the management company, we were responsible for all reasonable steps to ensure access and our liability insurance wouldn't cover the estate if not, if insurers can wiggle they'll wiggle).

Car damage around here from bin lorries is standard. Cycling home last night, the small truck (speeding) in front of me removed three wing mirrors (you'd think he'd have slowed down after the first – he did stop and leave a note on the final one, I won't give odds on it being someone else's address). That's how bad it is. They've been contemplating an RPZ for over 25 years. Everyone complains about parking, issues befoul any attempted development, but there seems no meaningful aspiration to tackle it.
Support the Great Surrey Bear Census 2020

Re: Road designers suck
« Reply #68 on: January 23, 2020, 11:33:51 am »
The ever-increasing width of cars is a factor too.  Some SUVs can no longer be driven through the Rotherhithe Tunnel or Gunnersbury Park (I could barely get a Micra into Lionel Road).  Big cars overhang marked bays, especially when badly parked by a 5 foot nothing trophy wife who can barely see over the steering wheel.
And Darkness and Decay and the Coronavirus held illimitable dominion over all.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Road designers suck
« Reply #69 on: January 23, 2020, 11:36:15 am »
...And Swindon, more than anywhere, needs a Roger Parking Zilla.  ;D
This ain't really your life, ain't nothing but a movie
Ain't nothing but a badly written novel

Re: Road designers suck
« Reply #70 on: January 23, 2020, 11:52:38 am »
...And Swindon, more than anywhere, needs a Roger Parking Zilla.  ;D
https://youtu.be/MuV1QTkcteg

I don't stamp on all that many...
And Darkness and Decay and the Coronavirus held illimitable dominion over all.

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: Road designers suck
« Reply #71 on: January 23, 2020, 12:39:05 pm »
The ever-increasing width of cars is a factor too.  Some SUVs can no longer be driven through the Rotherhithe Tunnel or Gunnersbury Park (I could barely get a Micra into Lionel Road).  Big cars overhang marked bays, especially when badly parked by a 5 foot nothing trophy wife who can barely see over the steering wheel.

We have width restrictions on a number of roads in Cambridge.  Some of them, like those in Romsey, have been in place for so long that even some of the smaller modern cars struggle to get through...  if I have to go into those areas by car for any reason, I have to take Mr R's Hyundai i30 as my BMW doesn't fit.
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Road designers suck
« Reply #72 on: January 23, 2020, 12:47:32 pm »
Sadly, parking seems a sine qua non in Surrey and to suggest otherwise a condition of madness. Some of the streets near the town centre are the worst for being snarled by parked cars, even in the evenings, so you can't blame sneaky commuters. These are households within a minute or two walk of all the facilities (and probably the same people who complain about the decline of the town centre). One of those streets was the one I picked up the complaint about 'double yellows' and that access by emergency vehicles shouldn't be at the 'expense of parking spaces.'

Those are people who are literally willing to die for their parking space.

The thing is there are probably journeys that are made by those residents that can only be made by car. Either due to the time of day, or the just generally shit service available.

There's a lot of talk about how to reduce car ownership, particularly through dis-incentives. But the fact of the mater is, if there is one journey that you need a car for (To go to Church on a Sunday? to go Mountain biking on a Saturday etc...), you'll hang on to it. Because for many the cost of the car is just absorbed into their finances the way that the mortgage payment or phone bill is, they don't associate that the £200 they are spending each month so they can drive to Church on Sunday once a week is effectively costing them £50 per journey. There then becomes the issue of "well I've got a car, I may as well use it", and so now the 2km round trip to the supermarket get's done by car, and thus into the pit they fall.

What this is a long winded way of saying is we need to really push the alternatives to car ownership, that means car share schemes, public transport, bikes, etc... Public transport especially really needs to be designed to transport the public, that means going where people want to go, and when they want to go, not just when it is most profitable to transport them. Buses and trains need to run late into the night, they need to goto the villages, and do so with a high frequency. If you have to stand for 15 minutes waiting for a bus, then after 5 mins you're gonna go home and get in the car, at least stuck in traffic you're warm.

I am in the privileged position that I live in a city with an exceptionally good public transport system. There is both a metro and tram stop within 100m of my flat, and even then I regularly moan at the company running them that it just isn't frequent enough, wait 7 minutes for a metro? are you taking the piss? The thing with such waits comes from trip chaining. Trip chaining is where you string multiple trips together, take the kids to school, stop by the pharmacist to get your meds, nip into the bakers to buy lunch, head to the office. The Dutch charging system for public transport means that if each stop is less than 35 minutes between getting off one public transport vehicle, and checking into the next, it's considered one journey. This is fine if the services come along every few minutes, but with typical UK frequencies of every 15+ minutes, if you miss one, it's a long wait. If you only have 35 minutes to run your errand between each leg, and you spend 20 minutes waiting for a tram, then you only have 15 mins to do your business. The other issue with the frequency is that rarely does a single vehicle go the whole way you want to go. For me to get to the cinema in the centre of the city requires either 2 metro's and a walk, or 4 trams. If you have to wait 5 minutes for each tram, that journey just got 20 minutes longer. This is really annoying as until July last year, there was a direct tram from 5 minutes walk from my flat, that stopped outside the cinema. They removed this route to improve the service we receive*. Public transport needs to be ridiculously cheap, incredibly frequent, and go where people want to go, when they want to go there. Until we have that, we can have all the parking enforcement and ULEZ we like, people are still going to insist on owning a car, because to not do so is just too damn hard.

J



*I'm actually really rather bitter about this, it was the first major timetable/route map shake up in 20+ years, and it seems to have made every single journey I make longer due to having to change more, and poor connections. I often will come into a tram stop and see the tram I need to connect to disappearing round the corner, meaning a 5-7 minute wait...
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Road designers suck
« Reply #73 on: January 23, 2020, 01:11:42 pm »
What I found in my dissertation research is that successful, transformative and rapid transportation/built environment reform has NEVER come from 'good governance'. The Dutch systems, Bogota cycleways, Copenhagen layout etc stem from direct action by grassroots community groups against road building and traffic on the grounds of environmental health and safety, particularly in the wake of the 1970s oil shocks and anarchist traditions like the Provo ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provo_(movement) ). The UK 'solutions' are always 'the government should do x y z technical fix (e.g. adjust road designs) to change the incentives' which is not historically proven to work, or at the least, work in a satisfyingly swift fashion. What is historically proven to work, and work very quickly, is enough people getting really mad and angry, and forcing the powers-that-be's hand on pain of mass, direct, disruptive action.





One of my favourite Provo schemes is this one:

Quote
White Victim Plan: proposed that anyone having caused death while driving would have to build a warning memorial on the site of the traffic collision by carving the victim's outline one inch deep into the pavement and filling it with white mortar.[4]
YACF touring/audax bargain basement:
https://bit.ly/2Xg8pRD



Ban cars.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Road designers suck
« Reply #74 on: January 23, 2020, 02:29:31 pm »
Public transport especially really needs to be designed to transport the public, that means going where people want to go, and when they want to go, not just when it is most profitable to transport them. 

Fundamentally people have to get to understand the they can't just go to where they went, when they want. That is only possible with cheap dino-fuel.
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.