Author Topic: Member survey  (Read 5372 times)

bhoot

  • MemSec (ex-Mrs RRtY)
Member survey
« on: April 06, 2020, 10:20:06 pm »
Hopefully members saw the article about the survey in the recent Arrivee. It's now gone live and the first emails went out a few minutes ago. If you don't have one yet, don't panic as they are going out in batches by surname letter (As and Ls so far) - this does mean that one person in a household may have their survey but others won't yet if you don't share a surname.  The rest will be sent out in the next day or so.

Your input will be much appreciated.

S2L

Re: Member survey
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2020, 05:15:35 pm »
Done, quite long!

Graeme

  • Priest, Preacher and Prophet
  • @FatherHilarious
    • BalancingOnTwoWheels
Re: Member survey
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2020, 09:00:22 pm »
I liked the cake question
37. Because travel is the finest educational system of all; and cycling the cheapest, easiest, and most educational means of travel - Kuklos' 39 Articles

Phil W

Re: Member survey
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2020, 09:01:56 pm »
Did everyone suggest unlimited cake with your membership?

Re: Member survey
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2020, 09:32:55 pm »
A long survey, indeed. I don't need extra cake; compared to the continent, all AUK events I've entered have been very generous in terms of cake/food/drinks per pound sterling of entry fee. My only small complaint is about the recorder: maybe we need a specific recorder for overseas based riders who are mainly doing overseas events.

Bianchi Boy

  • Cycling is my doctor
  • Is it possible for a ride to be too long?
    • Reading Cycling Club
Re: Member survey
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2020, 06:15:00 am »
I am worried that AUK might be going down the CTC route and starting to behave like a commercial organisation. We are a club with a special mission, please let us not forget that AUK runs long events that are hard and in some cases quite challenging. There are local cycling clubs and come ride organisations that exist to encourage people into cycling, that is not AUK's role. If you are in you love it and no amount of offering vegan cake or advertising locations of public toilets will expand the membership. Offering proof of ride by Strava on the other hand would because it removes an obstacle. I love Brevet cards and paper route sheets, but many people do not.

BB
Set a fire for a man and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

S2L

Re: Member survey
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2020, 06:57:41 am »
I am worried that AUK might be going down the CTC route and starting to behave like a commercial organisation. We are a club with a special mission, please let us not forget that AUK runs long events that are hard and in some cases quite challenging. There are local cycling clubs and come ride organisations that exist to encourage people into cycling, that is not AUK's role. If you are in you love it and no amount of offering vegan cake or advertising locations of public toilets will expand the membership. Offering proof of ride by Strava on the other hand would because it removes an obstacle. I love Brevet cards and paper route sheets, but many people do not.

BB

Brevet cards are nice, but other than a few "special" ones that end up filled with stamps and are treasured, they are just cardboard and they all look the same.
I can do anything up to 200 km without a need to "control" as such, therefore GPS validation would save me some time but more importantly some money, definitively some hassle, I don't like collecting receipts and I like info controls even less. For longer events, one needs food and there might not be much difference between card and GPS.
I would say, keep the cards for the BRM and move to electronic for everything else (for those who want it).

Moving onto GPS validation would also allow for completely different routes, for instance I have a 100 with 2 AAA points which I can only run as DIY by GPS, as it doesn't work in any other way... it would need something ridiculous like a dozen control points. But it's a great route...
The idea that you can go from A to B in an almost straight line is not in line with the times and the volume of traffic (Covid-19 aside), so GPS validation would solve that problem

Re: Member survey
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2020, 07:19:47 am »
I've yet to receive this survey - should I have?

bhoot

  • MemSec (ex-Mrs RRtY)
Re: Member survey
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2020, 07:32:04 am »
It depends on your surname initial as they are going out in batches, just under 50% have been sent, most of the rest will go out today. We will let everyone know when everything has been sent, and then anyone who still hasn't received it can contact me and we'll sort it out - I expect we have some incorrect email addresses, including people who registered work addresses and can no longer access those.

MikeFromLFE

  • Previously known as Millimole
Re: Member survey
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2020, 07:41:51 am »
I received and returned mine yesterday evening. Surname begins with G

Wide ranging survey with minimal bias, but it was a little unclear how to honestly answer some of the 'compulsory' questions as a rider who is not currently riding events.
Too many angry people - breathe & relax.

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Member survey
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2020, 09:47:35 am »
Brevet cards are nice, but other than a few "special" ones that end up filled with stamps and are treasured, they are just cardboard and they all look the same.
I can do anything up to 200 km without a need to "control" as such, therefore GPS validation would save me some time but more importantly some money, definitively some hassle, I don't like collecting receipts and I like info controls even less. For longer events, one needs food and there might not be much difference between card and GPS.
I would say, keep the cards for the BRM and move to electronic for everything else (for those who want it).

Moving onto GPS validation would also allow for completely different routes, for instance I have a 100 with 2 AAA points which I can only run as DIY by GPS, as it doesn't work in any other way... it would need something ridiculous like a dozen control points. But it's a great route...
The idea that you can go from A to B in an almost straight line is not in line with the times and the volume of traffic (Covid-19 aside), so GPS validation would solve that problem
Difficult one. On one hand it would be good to be able to validate via GPS, but I have had pitfalls with my GPS recordings before. Particularly on my previous Garmin 810 which has fouled up and deleted rides (including a 600), so in that case I would only have been able to validate using the brevet card. The garmin had this bizarre "feature" where if you charged it 'on the go' and then took the charging cable out, it would presume you wanted to power the device off unless you pressed a 'no' button with a 10 second warning. But this process could start several minutes after taking the cable out. So one could look down and see your unit had decided to deactivate. Maddening.


 We should appreciate that many people who are getting into cycling will be pretty wide-eyed at the prospect of spending a significant sum on a head unit that provides both navigation and recording (a smartphone can't necessarily be relied on to perform as well). On my first audax (a populaire) I was navigating using a phone using a route I'd made a route on based on the routesheet (Which I got wrong...) and ended up riding with some old sweats who kindly let me ride in.

Audax isn't just for veteran cyclists. Looking at my receipts I got my first road bike in April-May 2018. I did my first populaire in mid-May (Ten Thames Bridges) and my first 200 in June (A Catholic Education). At that point Audax UK was my only cycling club.

We do permit validation of permanents via GPS (in most cases, using a digital brevet card). I have no great romance for brevet cards and I'm conscious that they probably cost quite a lot of money over the course of the year. But from what I can see they strike a reasonable balance between ease-of-administration for organisers, accessibility and low-barriers-to-entry for riders as well as being fairly technologically foolproof (not counting during the Rowlands ramble when I rode straight past a control and had to backtrack 3 km up a hill)...
YACF touring/audax bargain basement:
https://bit.ly/2Xg8pRD



Ban cars.

S2L

Re: Member survey
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2020, 11:12:26 am »
Brevet cards are nice, but other than a few "special" ones that end up filled with stamps and are treasured, they are just cardboard and they all look the same.
I can do anything up to 200 km without a need to "control" as such, therefore GPS validation would save me some time but more importantly some money, definitively some hassle, I don't like collecting receipts and I like info controls even less. For longer events, one needs food and there might not be much difference between card and GPS.
I would say, keep the cards for the BRM and move to electronic for everything else (for those who want it).

Moving onto GPS validation would also allow for completely different routes, for instance I have a 100 with 2 AAA points which I can only run as DIY by GPS, as it doesn't work in any other way... it would need something ridiculous like a dozen control points. But it's a great route...
The idea that you can go from A to B in an almost straight line is not in line with the times and the volume of traffic (Covid-19 aside), so GPS validation would solve that problem
Difficult one. On one hand it would be good to be able to validate via GPS, but I have had pitfalls with my GPS recordings before. Particularly on my previous Garmin 810 which has fouled up and deleted rides (including a 600), so in that case I would only have been able to validate using the brevet card. The garmin had this bizarre "feature" where if you charged it 'on the go' and then took the charging cable out, it would presume you wanted to power the device off unless you pressed a 'no' button with a 10 second warning. But this process could start several minutes after taking the cable out. So one could look down and see your unit had decided to deactivate. Maddening.


 We should appreciate that many people who are getting into cycling will be pretty wide-eyed at the prospect of spending a significant sum on a head unit that provides both navigation and recording (a smartphone can't necessarily be relied on to perform as well). On my first audax (a populaire) I was navigating using a phone using a route I'd made a route on based on the routesheet (Which I got wrong...) and ended up riding with some old sweats who kindly let me ride in.

Audax isn't just for veteran cyclists. Looking at my receipts I got my first road bike in April-May 2018. I did my first populaire in mid-May (Ten Thames Bridges) and my first 200 in June (A Catholic Education). At that point Audax UK was my only cycling club.

We do permit validation of permanents via GPS (in most cases, using a digital brevet card). I have no great romance for brevet cards and I'm conscious that they probably cost quite a lot of money over the course of the year. But from what I can see they strike a reasonable balance between ease-of-administration for organisers, accessibility and low-barriers-to-entry for riders as well as being fairly technologically foolproof (not counting during the Rowlands ramble when I rode straight past a control and had to backtrack 3 km up a hill)...

I think GPS validation should be optional and available only for BP and BR up to 200 km, basically the same rides that already accept instant validation.
It is then up to the rider whether they prefer to accept the risk of having a BP/BR not validated because of GPS fault. The risk is insignificant anyway, as none of them qualify for anything other than silly awards.

Take it or leave it, but make it available to those riders and organisers who want it.

I would also give organisers the freedom to put together events which can only be validated by GPS, very convoluted routes, where it is essential to go up a few climbs to earn those AAA and such...
It is then up to riders whether they want to sign up or not. Some fantastic routes cannot make it into the Audax world because they would involve a disproportionate amount of controls.



Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Member survey
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2020, 11:49:31 am »
The survey seemed to be angling for an app.  Which might be good as an alternative to info controls and getting cards stamped.  But the last thing AUK needs is another large IT project...
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

S2L

Re: Member survey
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2020, 11:50:52 am »
The survey seemed to be angling for an app.  Which might be good as an alternative to info controls and getting cards stamped.  But the last thing AUK needs is another large IT project...

That's another way of doing it...

Re: Member survey
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2020, 12:30:05 pm »
Do we expect the results to be published before the end of the year?

Re: Member survey
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2020, 12:48:26 pm »
The shortest distance rule between contols changes in info and secret controls ruined some good audaxs.  One i know decided to stop running great 400s audaxs, if you entered he was very strict. 😀  If they think that the route doesn't suit them why enter, slap in the face for organiser. GPS would fix the problems, just have the uncertainty of the gps behaving. Most have phone and gps for backup. Or you could say using gps is not being self-sufficient, so no phones or gps just paper route sheet 👿

Bianchi Boy

  • Cycling is my doctor
  • Is it possible for a ride to be too long?
    • Reading Cycling Club
Re: Member survey
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2020, 12:53:26 pm »
The survey seemed to be angling for an app.  Which might be good as an alternative to info controls and getting cards stamped.  But the last thing AUK needs is another large IT project...
If there was an app that would only be used at controls so it registered your location and time when you pressed a button that would match the validation of the Brevet card. Would be simpler than tracking and would be much less prone to failures and would not even require the phone to be on for most of the ride.

These lazy days are making me think.....

BB
Set a fire for a man and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

bhoot

  • MemSec (ex-Mrs RRtY)
Re: Member survey
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2020, 01:04:30 pm »
An app doing just that was demonstrated at the reunion weekend last year, developed by a volunteer. I've trialled it on a few rides (not all audax, just made up some local routes and added controls for test purposes) and it seems to work OK. I am fairly sure the developer would be happy to share the code. Note it's just Android as that's all we have in our household.

S2L

Re: Member survey
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2020, 01:17:55 pm »
An app doing just that was demonstrated at the reunion weekend last year, developed by a volunteer. I've trialled it on a few rides (not all audax, just made up some local routes and added controls for test purposes) and it seems to work OK. I am fairly sure the developer would be happy to share the code. Note it's just Android as that's all we have in our household.

Sounds awesome!

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Member survey
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2020, 01:50:26 pm »
Moving onto GPS validation would also allow for completely different routes, for instance I have a 100 with 2 AAA points which I can only run as DIY by GPS, as it doesn't work in any other way... it would need something ridiculous like a dozen control points. But it's a great route...
The idea that you can go from A to B in an almost straight line is not in line with the times and the volume of traffic (Covid-19 aside), so GPS validation would solve that problem

Or just do what other countries do, and use mandatory routes.


Difficult one. On one hand it would be good to be able to validate via GPS, but I have had pitfalls with my GPS recordings before. Particularly on my previous Garmin 810 which has fouled up and deleted rides (including a 600), so in that case I would only have been able to validate using the brevet card. The garmin had this bizarre "feature" where if you charged it 'on the go' and then took the charging cable out, it would presume you wanted to power the device off unless you pressed a 'no' button with a 10 second warning. But this process could start several minutes after taking the cable out. So one could look down and see your unit had decided to deactivate. Maddening.

All being well there is an article in the next Arriveé about what happens when GPS devices fail on an audax...

Quote
We should appreciate that many people who are getting into cycling will be pretty wide-eyed at the prospect of spending a significant sum on a head unit that provides both navigation and recording (a smartphone can't necessarily be relied on to perform as well). On my first audax (a populaire) I was navigating using a phone using a route I'd made a route on based on the routesheet (Which I got wrong...) and ended up riding with some old sweats who kindly let me ride in.

Audax isn't just for veteran cyclists. Looking at my receipts I got my first road bike in April-May 2018. I did my first populaire in mid-May (Ten Thames Bridges) and my first 200 in June (A Catholic Education). At that point Audax UK was my only cycling club.

I finished building my bike end of November 2017, I did my first audax, a 200k BRM, on Jan 27th 2018. Pretty much 2 months later.

Quote
We do permit validation of permanents via GPS (in most cases, using a digital brevet card). I have no great romance for brevet cards and I'm conscious that they probably cost quite a lot of money over the course of the year. But from what I can see they strike a reasonable balance between ease-of-administration for organisers, accessibility and low-barriers-to-entry for riders as well as being fairly technologically foolproof (not counting during the Rowlands ramble when I rode straight past a control and had to backtrack 3 km up a hill)...

I like the cards. They cost about 10-25p each. It's not like they are expensive.

The survey seemed to be angling for an app.  Which might be good as an alternative to info controls and getting cards stamped.  But the last thing AUK needs is another large IT project...

*shudder*

If there was an app that would only be used at controls so it registered your location and time when you pressed a button that would match the validation of the Brevet card. Would be simpler than tracking and would be much less prone to failures and would not even require the phone to be on for most of the ride.

These lazy days are making me think.....

The Dutch have trailed a system where by when you got the control, as well as getting a stamp, you gave the controller your brevet card number, and they entered it into some system on a tablet, which tracked who was where and when.

Other options would be to include a simple barcode on the card, scan it at the control, boom, done.


I've not had an email about the survey, What was the subject line so I can search my spam folder?

I think digital validation is a stupid idea, it's yet another way where Audax UK is trying to be Special™, and setting itself apart from the rest of Audax. It's bad enough that we don't have enough BRM rides, without stepping even further away from how it works elsewhere.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Member survey
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2020, 01:55:29 pm »
Quote
All being well there is an article in the next Arriveé about what happens when GPS devices fail on an audax...
For Strava vanity purposes, I created a .fit file using the route GPX and my start/end time data and uploaded it as a completed activity using some tools I found online. Obviously it didnt accurately map segment times but that wasn't a priority

Quote
The Dutch have trailed a system where by when you got the control, as well as getting a stamp, you gave the controller your brevet card number, and they entered it into some system on a tablet, which tracked who was where and when.
Grams and I did exactly this when we operated a ditchling devil control last year.

Grams stamped people in and out in paper. I updated a live spreadsheet on Google docs which signified who'd passed through. It was best done between two (and a dog) as it was a big ride (well north of 300 participants) and lots of people were in groups.

The Koreans have some audaxes where the control is a stamp hidden behind a lamp post but I can't find any photos of it right now.

For all points North they required a timestamped photo of a landmark as a control for each checkpoint and that a rider WhatsApp it to a phone number  Which is a bit technical for audax but has the advantage of not requiring a GPS unit. More people have a WhatsApp capable phone than a shoop de woooo Bluetooth enabled head unit
YACF touring/audax bargain basement:
https://bit.ly/2Xg8pRD



Ban cars.

Re: Member survey
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2020, 02:05:39 pm »
Got it now. Good survey I thought.

I'd like GPS validation for calendar events to be an option if feasible, but I wouldn't want organisers to be forced to offer it (and said so in my response).

S2L

Re: Member survey
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2020, 02:16:51 pm »
Mandatory routes are a solution to nothing. I then have to source volunteers to patrol the route and if you ask them to stand at one specific point, all you have done is adding a "secret control", but in practice you haven't really done much to avoid people taking shortcuts at other points.

There are two approaches: either you don't give a monkey about what people decide to do, because ultimately you realise that validation is just a bit of a game (and I am very happy with this approach for BP and BR 200, after all I have on occasions validated NON AUK members who came back with nothing as evidence) or you use the existing technology to enforce a mandatory route.

telstarbox

  • Loving the lanes
Re: Member survey
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2020, 02:19:31 pm »
  It's bad enough that we don't have enough BRM rides, without stepping even further away from how it works elsewhere.

J

Why do rides need to be BRM?
2019 🏅 R1000 and B1000

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Member survey
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2020, 03:01:37 pm »
I've not had an email about the survey, What was the subject line so I can search my spam folder?

From: membership@audax.uk
Subject: Audax Member Survey
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...