Author Topic: Garmin withdrawal and frustration  (Read 2088 times)

Garmin withdrawal and frustration
« on: July 27, 2020, 07:29:05 am »
I am imagining that a lot of Garmin owners are beginning to look for long term alternatives now.  The ransom cost may become chicken feed in comparison.

So, out of idle curiosity, what compares to say a Garmin Forerunner 6 or 9 series or an Edge on the bike?  What features are Garmin weak with that you'd like on an alternative product?  Would you have two different devices to cover the angles?

Thoughts?

For me Garmin Pay is a waste of time in the UK.  Apple and Google have almost universal coverage and even Samsung have a far better reach than Garmin.  Also, genuine Garmin straps are both eye-wateringly expensive and not nearly as robust as they should be for the price.

As for the exercise functionality and fitness tracking:  I think k it needs to learn some manners.  I don't use the coach but I do structure my running so I don't need it to tell me that it thinks that I am unproductive or in recovery just because what I am doing doesn't suit it's algoritbms.

Re: Garmin withdrawal and frustration
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2020, 07:40:25 am »
With my Garmin plugged into my computer, I upload rides to ridewithgps and strava.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Garmin withdrawal and frustration
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2020, 08:18:19 am »
I like my FR620. I don't use many of the training features (only the virtual pacer) but I don't object to them being there.

I had an Edge 510 which I was very happy with for several years until the sodding dog decided to use it for a chew toy. I've not yet got round to replacing it but I've been looking at the Edge 130, which seems to offer a similar range of functions to the 510, or possibly a Wahoo Element Bolt, which is a bit more expensive for the addition of maps. I've always managed fine with the breadcrumb trail navigation on the 510 so I'm not yet convinced I need maps.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Garmin withdrawal and frustration
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2020, 08:40:05 am »
Ah yes, I forgot eSIM.  I would not need to carry my phone when out running if my next device has eSIM.

Re: Garmin withdrawal and frustration
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2020, 09:03:49 am »
My run has just sync’d with Garmin Connect on my phone, but as I’ve also had some down time, it’s the first activity I’ve done since the beginning of Garmin’s prolonged maintenance window, so I don’t know if this is an improvement. No ransom was involved in getting my hardware back in service, but too much cake was used during the down time. :(

ETA
It’s also sync’d between instances of GC on my phone and my iPad so there must be some connectivity. Both instances have a very annoying banner in flashing bright red Informing of the down time.
Sorting my life out, one shed at a time.

Re: Garmin withdrawal and frustration
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2020, 09:18:35 am »
My Friday "chill" has proven serendipitous as regards activity and as it was pouring it down at 3a.m. this morning as per forecast I had already planned to do my 12k run tomorrow.

Some services restored on my PC and on the android phone but not there yet.

Having gadget fantasies though in my spare moments.

Re: Garmin withdrawal and frustration
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2020, 09:31:36 am »
Never used Garmin connect. My Garmin etrex 30 doesn't have bluetooth, internet, or any other connectivity other than to GPS satellites, nor do I wish it did.

It takes (and can produce, if I want it to - but rarely do) GPX files which are an open, non-proprietary format, important thing for me personally.

The only time I've had dealing with Garmin was when I once had issue with it (one of the buttons broke) I sent it back to their depot in southampton for a fixed fee and they sent me a refurbished one which has been fine since.

Don't have that much interest in logging rides - I record rides on strava, which involves pressing a button on my phone at the start and again at the end. I rarely look at them, though, to be honest, so I wouldn't be that upset if strava went down and I couldn't log any rides - one of the main reasons I do it is so I know how many miles components on my bike has done but even so that's only out of interest, cos I replace them on being visibly/noticeably worn rather than after having done a certain mileage.

I think a lot of people need to get out of the mentality of "if it wasn't recorded and on the internet it didn't happen/wasn't worthwhile".

If [cloud logging provider of choice] goes down, you haven't "lost" any rides. You still did them and have memories of them.

It is what it is. It's not what it's not, so it must be what it is.

Re: Garmin withdrawal and frustration
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2020, 09:39:44 am »
I rarely share my runs, but I’m a data junky and will spend hours reviewing and comparing data so it’s fun to collect the data for later analysis. Weird? Probably, but in my defence I never said I wasn’t.  ;D
Sorting my life out, one shed at a time.

fuaran

  • rothair gasta
Re: Garmin withdrawal and frustration
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2020, 10:31:31 am »
For me Garmin Pay is a waste of time in the UK.  Apple and Google have almost universal coverage and even Samsung have a far better reach than Garmin.  Also, genuine Garmin straps are both eye-wateringly expensive and not nearly as robust as they should be for the price.

As for the exercise functionality and fitness tracking:  I think k it needs to learn some manners.  I don't use the coach but I do structure my running so I don't need it to tell me that it thinks that I am unproductive or in recovery just because what I am doing doesn't suit it's algoritbms.
I've bought a few straps off Aliexpress, about £2 each. They seem robust enough, lasted a year or two so far. No need for to buy genuine straps.

Just turn off the training status features if you don't use it. Then you won't get any of those messages.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Garmin withdrawal and frustration
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2020, 10:46:12 am »
If [cloud logging provider of choice] goes down, you haven't "lost" any rides. You still did them and have memories of them.

I was going through my old brevet cards the other day. Half of them I'd forgotten I ever rode. Good to have these triggers to help my ageing memory banks function.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Garmin withdrawal and frustration
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2020, 10:48:44 am »

I think a lot of people need to get out of the mentality of "if it wasn't recorded and on the internet it didn't happen/wasn't worthwhile".

If [cloud logging provider of choice] goes down, you haven't "lost" any rides. You still did them and have memories of them.


Exactly! I've got so sick of people on social media whinging about "losing" their rides over the past few days. ::-) I freed myself from the clutches of Strava about a year ago, and am so glad I did. I still use Garmin (I was doing a running coach plan until a few weeks ago, which I found really useful - but the data doesn't get seen by anyone but me) but most of my riding is done unrecorded these days.

Although perhaps this outage business will result in lots of folks flogging their Garmins cheaply...I've been eyeing up the Edge 530 for a while (my 500 doesn't do proper navigation, and my Etrex is too old to connect to any of the computers in the house so I can't load anything to it!). :P

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Garmin withdrawal and frustration
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2020, 10:58:42 am »
Losing rides? Does not compute!

Shirley all you need to do is save the activity, view it on screen and write it down, put it in a spreadsheet or whatever? Personally I don't use GC as my repository of stuff, just a way to get at the detail of particular activities but it's really not the end of the world if I don't.
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: Garmin withdrawal and frustration
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2020, 12:35:13 pm »
I am imagining that a lot of Garmin owners are beginning to look for long term alternatives now.  The ransom cost may become chicken feed in comparison.

Maybe some will, but they're fickle and they probably flit between Suunto, Polar, Garmin, etc with each purchase. It looks like GC is mostly back now and people will soon forget about it. I certainly don't really care as it didn't really affect me - actually going out for a run is the most important thing - having a record of it is second most - having a public record of it least most important.

Garmin will probably come out of it slightly stronger as they'll be forced to rethink/re-engineer their reliance on their systems being up and running. (This is a general IT problem anyway, too much of a reliance on the cloud. Someone I know with Garmin Scales said the scales wouldn't even display the weight because their firmware first attempts to talk to the Garmin servers in the cloud. That's just shit coding.)
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

fuaran

  • rothair gasta
Re: Garmin withdrawal and frustration
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2020, 12:53:51 pm »
If you're looking at Suunto, they discontinued the old version of their software. And the new version isn't compatible with their old watches. So no way of uploading from them. https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2019/01/suunto-announces-decommission-plans-for-movescount-platform-impacting-some-watches.html

It highlights the issues with relying on specific software or services. If buying any other GPS, I'd check if it can work offline, and connect as a standard USB device, recording in a standard format. I think all recent Garmins can work as USB mass storage / MTP mode.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Garmin withdrawal and frustration
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2020, 01:22:51 pm »
Never used Garmin connect. My Garmin etrex 30 doesn't have bluetooth, internet, or any other connectivity other than to GPS satellites, nor do I wish it did.

Not strictly true; it can also exchange data by Ant+.  Sometimes it even works.


Quote
It takes (and can produce, if I want it to - but rarely do) GPX files which are an open, non-proprietary format, important thing for me personally.

This.  Fanatical devotion to open standards makes you a boring Stallman-bearded weirdo, but if you're even slightly inclined to doing your own analysis or wanting data you can access decades in the future, it's just common sense.

Internet-of-Shit products that need to talk to some company's proprietary server for core functionality are a case of 'you get what you pay for'.  This stuff's been around for long enough that we all know what happens when the company has technical problems, loses interest in its existing products, goes bust or gets bought out by EvilCorp. To expect any of it to work even five years down the line is rather optimistic, which makes the item disposable by default.  Doesn't matter if it's a PE watch, a smart telly, an extra-tragic hipster coffee machine, one of those spooky speaker things or a wanky doorbell - in the absence of open source firmware they're all going to end up as largely useless lumps of WEEE.

If you want the smart functionality while maintaining control, you've got to do a bit more work.  That's life.


Quote
Don't have that much interest in logging rides - I record rides on strava, which involves pressing a button on my phone at the start and again at the end. I rarely look at them, though, to be honest, so I wouldn't be that upset if strava went down and I couldn't log any rides - one of the main reasons I do it is so I know how many miles components on my bike has done but even so that's only out of interest, cos I replace them on being visibly/noticeably worn rather than after having done a certain mileage.

I think a lot of people need to get out of the mentality of "if it wasn't recorded and on the internet it didn't happen/wasn't worthwhile".

I am interested in logging rides, but my primary interest is where I've been.  All the performance stuff is just a curiosity.

My primary means of logging rides is as GPX files.  On a disk.  If I'm interested in the route of some previous ride, I can open them in whatever tool is most convenient.

I have a script to throw a copy at Strava, which is a convenient analysis tool (particularly in combination with VeloViewer), and some of the social aspects are fun, but I've still got it all if Strava disappeared tomorrow.  Tools like Viking or Memory Map or Basecamp aren't sexy, but they don't require access to the internet.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Garmin withdrawal and frustration
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2020, 01:26:33 pm »
Garmin's status page is showing some services are up and running and some with limited functionality.

I tried to log into connect.garmin.com; no joy.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Garmin withdrawal and frustration
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2020, 01:29:19 pm »
If [cloud logging provider of choice] goes down, you haven't "lost" any rides. You still did them and have memories of them.

I was going through my old brevet cards the other day. Half of them I'd forgotten I ever rode. Good to have these triggers to help my ageing memory banks function.

Conversely, I have no attachment to old brevet cards.  I have the GPX of the ride (see above) and if I really cared about the validation, that's in AudaxUK's records.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Garmin withdrawal and frustration
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2020, 01:34:46 pm »

Just occured to me that my Delorme Inreach is now owned by Garmin, I should login and see what's up.

Well I connected just fine. There's red text top right "Partial system outage", clicking on it takes me to:

https://status.inreach.garmin.com/

So it looks like SOS and messaging worked just fine during the outage, but you can't log in to check the map of someone you're tracking. This could have been fun, had this hack happened and the TCR started this weekend as planned, my inReach would be my tracker. So I'd have no tracking for the whole weekend.

Well that'll stop me laughing at Garmin users...

Apologies...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Garmin withdrawal and frustration
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2020, 02:13:21 pm »
Conversely, I have no attachment to old brevet cards.  I have the GPX of the ride (see above) and if I really cared about the validation, that's in AudaxUK's records.

Oh god, validation... probably just as well there is no AUK validation right now or many people would be bemoaning the fact that Garmin are depriving them of valuable points.  ::-)

I've kept my brevet cards mainly because I am an inveterate hoarder. I actually thought I had thrown most of them away some years ago, but then discovered a bundle lurking at the bottom of a box of random stuff, so I obviously had a change of heart.

Quite a few of them predate my acquiring of a GPS tracking device so are the only record I have of many events. And some of the details they contain provide information that isn't kept in AUK's online records - occasionally enough information to recreate routes of now defunct events where I no longer have a copy of the routesheet.

The various stamps and scribbles (and sometimes stains) often also help to trigger memories of the particular event.

Like you, I'm mostly interested in keeping these records as a way of helping me remember where I've been - and when (I often find it very hard to accurately place memories in time and space). GPS tracks are very good for this.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Socks

  • FFCT rally, France 2012
Re: Garmin withdrawal and frustration
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2020, 07:36:33 pm »
There seems to be an argument for old style paper (brevet cards) and images (printed photos) and even hand written notes.  We've done family cycle tours since the 1980's, and I've taken part in Audax events since the 1990's.  I have a record of those in my scrapbooks and photo box.  Probably seen as very old fashioned nowadays, but if I'd been relying on digital on-line stuff like Garmin would there be any memories to leave to the bairns?  Or for me to review when I can no !longer cycle?

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Garmin withdrawal and frustration
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2020, 07:51:06 pm »
There's an argument for looking after the stuff you care about, whatever the medium.

Digital data has the advantage of being easily and flawlessly duplicated to prevent accidental loss, and takes up minimal physical space[1].  And then we go and ruin it by trusting it all to a single delicate short-lived piece of desirable-to-thieves hardware, or putting it in the hands of some short-lived internet company.  And then shrug when we lose it all in an entirely predictable way.

I think the 'digital dark age' is a real problem, but it's not really because storage devices are unreliable.


[1] Which matters when your housing is overpriced and insecure, in a way that older people with sheds and attics and things don't really grok.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

CrazyEnglishTriathlete

  • Miles eaten don't satisfy hunger
  • Chartered accountant in 5 different decades
    • CET Ride Reports and Blogs
Re: Garmin withdrawal and frustration
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2020, 09:02:18 pm »
My clients' standard answer when I ask them about IT resilience and recovery is ""The cloud takes care of all of that." 

I've lived through enough cycles of digital obsolescence to have both a digital and analogue version of a logbook.  There is some pleasure in looking back at my miniature handwriting in those little A6 books and recalling adventures.

The main purpose of my Garmin is as a navigation device and, as I use RidewithGPS as my planning software, it has worked fine through Garmin's lockdown.  So I wouldn't swap for another device.

Its also worthwhile noting that most companies bitten as hard as Garmin tend to be ultra-careful afterwards - so IMHO your data is probably more likely to be safe with them than their rivals.
Eddington Numbers 125 (imperial), 172 (metric) 524 (furlongs)  112 (nautical miles)

Re: Garmin withdrawal and frustration
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2020, 11:48:27 pm »
There's an argument for looking after the stuff you care about, whatever the medium.

Digital data has the advantage of being easily and flawlessly duplicated to prevent accidental loss, and takes up minimal physical space[1].  And then we go and ruin it by trusting it all to a single delicate short-lived piece of desirable-to-thieves hardware, or putting it in the hands of some short-lived internet company.  And then shrug when we lose it all in an entirely predictable way.

I think the 'digital dark age' is a real problem, but it's not really because storage devices are unreliable.


[1] Which matters when your housing is overpriced and insecure, in a way that older people with sheds and attics and things don't really grok.
The digital media is certainly reliable for medium to long term storage but hands up who still has a DVD reader on their computer. How about a threeanabit drive?. Fiveanabit? That weird high capacity zoom drive? How about an 8mm tape drive? A VHS? VHSC? Etc etc. We’ve probably all got lots of Backups and archives of our treasured data, but only the most dedicated hoarder will still have the right tech available to,access it all
Sorting my life out, one shed at a time.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Garmin withdrawal and frustration
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2020, 12:13:29 am »
Conversely, I have no attachment to old brevet cards.  I have the GPX of the ride (see above) and if I really cared about the validation, that's in AudaxUK's records.

Oh god, validation... probably just as well there is no AUK validation right now or many people would be bemoaning the fact that Garmin are depriving them of valuable points.  ::-)
I used to just take the gpx file off the Garmin, zip it, and send it in on the auk uploader. Isn't that still an option? Or won't the non-Etrex Garmins do that? Or was it impossible during this outage, and if so why?
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Garmin withdrawal and frustration
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2020, 12:17:16 am »
There's an argument for looking after the stuff you care about, whatever the medium.
Trouble is, the stuff you care about changes according to circumstance. There are various bits of paper that I've told my mum or my sister or whoever they can dispose of, having left them in their attics or whatever while I was being an international jet set playboy of the eastern world, that I now wish I'd asked them to keep. As well as stuff they did keep that I'm not bothered about, of course. I mean, have you ever had a need for your O level* certificates?

*For young people, this is what came before GCSEs were invented. For Wowbagger, it's what replaced matriculation.  ;)
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...