Author Topic: Anyone used multicouche water tubes? Probably for the francophiles  (Read 1976 times)

Gattopardo

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Look at doing some repairs and repairs so was thinging of using this tubing https://www.castorama.fr/tube-multicouche-16-2-50-m/3342971405116_CAFR.prd

Any one have any experiesnce of using this stuff instead of copper pipe.

frankly frankie

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Re: Anyone used multicouche water tubes? Probably for the francophiles
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2020, 11:07:35 am »
My own experience of plastic piping is that the wall thickness is a bit thicker than copper.  This means that, to maintain a standard pipe diameter, the bore ends up narrower.  In my house a direct consequence of this is a slow-running bath.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

Gattopardo

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Re: Anyone used multicouche water tubes? Probably for the francophiles
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2020, 01:17:15 pm »
This stuff is more than plastic tubing as such, it is

Re: Anyone used multicouche water tubes? Probably for the francophiles
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2020, 01:22:55 pm »
This stuff is more than plastic tubing as such, it is


Never used it, but multi-layer pipes were recently a CPD item in the CIBSE Journal so I guess they are well recognised in commercial building services
https://www.cibsejournal.com/cpd/modules/2020-05-mlc/

Gattopardo

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Re: Anyone used multicouche water tubes? Probably for the francophiles
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2020, 02:08:39 pm »
Have seen the stuff in the UK, but usually you need special tools to cut and fit the crimped end on to the tube but this one is a compression type joint.

 

Re: Anyone used multicouche water tubes? Probably for the francophiles
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2020, 09:29:12 am »
Just standard PEX barrier pipe designed initially for use in enclosed circulating water systems to prevent oxygen from diffusing into the  water through the plastic.  Now used as standard for most internal plastic pipe in UK as wall thickness is much less than MDPE pipes used for water supply.  Readily joined with either push-fit or standard compression fittings.  Must be used with an insert in the end of the pipe at each fitting/connection.  UK standard 15mm pipe has approximate flow rate of copper of the same size as usually fewer fittings are used.

A similar product is PB (polybutylene) pipe

Gattopardo

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Re: Anyone used multicouche water tubes? Probably for the francophiles
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2020, 10:54:09 am »
My own experience of plastic piping is that the wall thickness is a bit thicker than copper.  This means that, to maintain a standard pipe diameter, the bore ends up narrower.  In my house a direct consequence of this is a slow-running bath.

Believe that this type of pipe in measured on internal diameter.

Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
  • Overseaing the building of the death star
Re: Anyone used multicouche water tubes? Probably for the francophiles
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2020, 11:06:28 am »
Just standard PEX barrier pipe designed initially for use in enclosed circulating water systems to prevent oxygen from diffusing into the  water through the plastic.  Now used as standard for most internal plastic pipe in UK as wall thickness is much less than MDPE pipes used for water supply.  Readily joined with either push-fit or standard compression fittings.  Must be used with an insert in the end of the pipe at each fitting/connection.  UK standard 15mm pipe has approximate flow rate of copper of the same size as usually fewer fittings are used.

A similar product is PB (polybutylene) pipe

Don't think the stuff I am looking at needs the insert.  So is it the same?

Am a bit unsure,  as the systems available here in DIY shops, is different to the available in the UK and I have no access to any trade places as you can't get in to them with out an appropriate tax number.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Anyone used multicouche water tubes? Probably for the francophiles
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2020, 12:41:22 pm »
Believe that this type of pipe in measured on internal diameter.

AIUI that's the difference between 'pipe' and 'tube': Pipes are measured by their internal diameter, tubes by their external diameter.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Anyone used multicouche water tubes? Probably for the francophiles
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2020, 12:45:57 pm »
Believe that this type of pipe in measured on internal diameter.

AIUI that's the difference between 'pipe' and 'tube': Pipes are measured by their internal diameter, tubes by their external diameter.

Gonna have that as my interesting piece of info for today  :thumbsup:

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Anyone used multicouche water tubes? Probably for the francophiles
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2020, 02:16:55 pm »
Does that mean that a bike made with externally butted tubes is actually made of pipes? (I always thought the difference was that a pipe was for fluids to move through, but I think I'd just inferred that through general usage.)
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Anyone used multicouche water tubes? Probably for the francophiles
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2020, 02:31:16 pm »
I suppose a pipe could be a tube or vice-versa, depending on context.  Presumably there are different standard sizes and tolerances depending on whether you're more concerned about fluids flowing through it, or its structural properties.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Anyone used multicouche water tubes? Probably for the francophiles
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2020, 02:48:04 pm »
Just standard PEX barrier pipe designed initially for use in enclosed circulating water systems to prevent oxygen from diffusing into the  water through the plastic.  Now used as standard for most internal plastic pipe in UK as wall thickness is much less than MDPE pipes used for water supply.  Readily joined with either push-fit or standard compression fittings.  Must be used with an insert in the end of the pipe at each fitting/connection.  UK standard 15mm pipe has approximate flow rate of copper of the same size as usually fewer fittings are used.

A similar product is PB (polybutylene) pipe

Don't think the stuff I am looking at needs the insert.  So is it the same?

Am a bit unsure,  as the systems available here in DIY shops, is different to the available in the UK and I have no access to any trade places as you can't get in to them with out an appropriate tax number.
Looking at the multicouche connectors they look like there is an insert built into the connector.

Re: Anyone used multicouche water tubes? Probably for the francophiles
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2020, 02:59:21 pm »
Look at doing some repairs and repairs so was thinging of using this tubing https://www.castorama.fr/tube-multicouche-16-2-50-m/3342971405116_CAFR.prd

Any one have any experiesnce of using this stuff instead of copper pipe.

I have some experience, having completely rebuilt the plumbing in 3 flats with multicouche tubes. I didn't know it was a specifically french thing. I will happily try to help you, but what is your question exactly?

A

Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
  • Overseaing the building of the death star
Re: Anyone used multicouche water tubes? Probably for the francophiles
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2020, 04:28:06 pm »
Believe that this type of pipe in measured on internal diameter.

AIUI that's the difference between 'pipe' and 'tube': Pipes are measured by their internal diameter, tubes by their external diameter.

Have no idea, but that makes sense.


Re: Anyone used multicouche water tubes? Probably for the francophiles
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2020, 05:07:03 pm »
I suppose a pipe could be a tube or vice-versa, depending on context.  Presumably there are different standard sizes and tolerances depending on whether you're more concerned about fluids flowing through it, or its structural properties.
I thought a pipe was a tube used for fluid.

In mathematics a tube is a 3D surface. For example a cylinder is the tube of a straight line and a Krispy crème donut the tube of a circle.

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Anyone used multicouche water tubes? Probably for the francophiles
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2020, 08:19:59 pm »
Believe that this type of pipe in measured on internal diameter.

AIUI that's the difference between 'pipe' and 'tube': Pipes are measured by their internal diameter, tubes by their external diameter.

In chemical engineering terms I have only ever specified piping by ID, wall thickness and material.  OD is irrelevant, it's a consequence of what you are moving through it, what pressure, temperature and how corrosive it is vs design life you want.  I'm not a driller, but my understanding is that drill pipe is specified on OD, in order to maintain a specific clearance between casing or open hole sections and the pipe.
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
  • Overseaing the building of the death star
Re: Anyone used multicouche water tubes? Probably for the francophiles
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2020, 02:28:43 am »
Look at doing some repairs and repairs so was thinging of using this tubing https://www.castorama.fr/tube-multicouche-16-2-50-m/3342971405116_CAFR.prd

Any one have any experiesnce of using this stuff instead of copper pipe.

I have some experience, having completely rebuilt the plumbing in 3 flats with multicouche tubes. I didn't know it was a specifically french thing. I will happily try to help you, but what is your question exactly?

A

Took photos hours ago, nipped out to escape the house. Bought a baguette, some non blue chese, an electricians knife (not that great but €2.95) a set of measuring calipers, and some nail trimmers for feet, but no box of croisant or pain au chocolat on special!!!.  Oh and 10 25cl bottles of kroneborg.

Anyway here are the photos:  This is the bathroom in question so you can see how the bath is tiled in.


The inspection/access panel for the ubend, that when i tried to open I managed to knock off all four of the tiles.  There is a vent and I have no idea why it would be there.


So removing the panels shows these pipes, both hot and cold that go to the sink and the waste pipe from the basin.


Here are the pipes that are under the bath.  The issue is where the bottom water pipe crosses the first upright water pipe as there is no gap between the two and thing there is a leak there hence wanting to replace the two pipes.

There isn't enough space to get a propane torch in there to heat, have a brazing set but not sure adding heat to solder new joints would affect the not very nicely soldered joints so not sure adding brazing torch temps. So was thinking four compression joints and a bit of multicouve with a handmade gentle bend to keep the two pipes apart.

The pipe external diameters from the possible leaking area and the external pipe diameters are 16mm (on the far wall) while the pipes running along the side of the bath (coming towards you) are external 14mm but soldered together with the 16mm.  The 16mm, on the far wall, goes from 16mm to 12mm.


Part of me thinks I should cut the pipes along the side of the bath to gain easier access to the possibly leaking pipes then fit compression joints with the multicoude in the middle instead of soldering an inline link.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Anyone used multicouche water tubes? Probably for the francophiles
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2020, 11:39:11 am »
There is a vent and I have no idea why it would be there.

To help the leaks dry out? :)
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: Anyone used multicouche water tubes? Probably for the francophiles
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2020, 11:59:36 am »
I'm not a driller, but my understanding is that drill pipe is specified on OD, in order to maintain a specific clearance between casing or open hole sections and the pipe.

Drill Pipe is usually expressed as a nominal OD, a weight ( lb/ft usually ), and a Grade of material.
The pin and box connections at each end have a larger OD to accommodate the threads. This is called 'External Upset'.
The ID remains approximately constant, called IF ( Internally Flush ).

So we might talk about "4-1\2 IF 20lb X-95".

The External Upset means that the drill string is only in contact with the borehole wall for the short length of the couplings, not the entire length of the string. This reduces the chances of the drill string becoming differentially stuck by mudcake buildup as the mud invades permeable formation under hydrostatic pressure.

Re: Anyone used multicouche water tubes? Probably for the francophiles
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2020, 01:48:28 pm »
In my (short) experience, multicouche is a fantastic, simple and foolproof solution, when you have plenty of room for manipulating the crimping tool. Even if you use the kind of joints with nuts rather than the crimped seal joints, you will need to have enough room to handle two big spanners (probably 27 or 30 mm) around each joint. On the other hand, multicouche is a nightmare when you have to work in very restricted spaces like I can see on your photos.

Considering the very limited space around your bathtub, I would first try to fix the leak with an oxygen-acetylen torch and copper-phosphorus solder. Even if the pipes were originally soldered with tin soldering, heating them with the oxygen-acetylen torch will flush every bit of old soldering. It looks like we are in between a plastered wall and a cast iron tub, so there is no risk to set the house on fire! If you want to make sure you won't do any damage to the tub, just fill it with water before you try to heat up the pipes.
A

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Anyone used multicouche water tubes? Probably for the francophiles
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2020, 07:35:00 pm »
I'm not a driller, but my understanding is that drill pipe is specified on OD, in order to maintain a specific clearance between casing or open hole sections and the pipe.

Drill Pipe is usually expressed as a nominal OD, a weight ( lb/ft usually ), and a Grade of material.
The pin and box connections at each end have a larger OD to accommodate the threads. This is called 'External Upset'.
The ID remains approximately constant, called IF ( Internally Flush ).

So we might talk about "4-1\2 IF 20lb X-95".

The External Upset means that the drill string is only in contact with the borehole wall for the short length of the couplings, not the entire length of the string. This reduces the chances of the drill string becoming differentially stuck by mudcake buildup as the mud invades permeable formation under hydrostatic pressure.

I didn't know you were a driller, I've got no-end of questions I could ask next time we can manage to meet for a beer.  Drilling always seemed like one of those black arts to me.
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
  • Overseaing the building of the death star
Re: Anyone used multicouche water tubes? Probably for the francophiles
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2020, 08:34:57 pm »
In my (short) experience, multicouche is a fantastic, simple and foolproof solution, when you have plenty of room for manipulating the crimping tool. Even if you use the kind of joints with nuts rather than the crimped seal joints, you will need to have enough room to handle two big spanners (probably 27 or 30 mm) around each joint. On the other hand, multicouche is a nightmare when you have to work in very restricted spaces like I can see on your photos.

Considering the very limited space around your bathtub, I would first try to fix the leak with an oxygen-acetylen torch and copper-phosphorus solder. Even if the pipes were originally soldered with tin soldering, heating them with the oxygen-acetylen torch will flush every bit of old soldering. It looks like we are in between a plastered wall and a cast iron tub, so there is no risk to set the house on fire! If you want to make sure you won't do any damage to the tub, just fill it with water before you try to heat up the pipes.
A

It is a plastic tub, and the t piece is is the right angles are 16mm, and the straight on is 12mm.  This issue is that the 16mm joint has a 14mm pipe and then solder filling the gap.  So heat IMO is not an option as I'm not sure what would happen.

Maybe push fit.

Re: Anyone used multicouche water tubes? Probably for the francophiles
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2020, 11:13:09 pm »
In mathematics a tube is a 3D surface. For example a cylinder is the tube of a straight line and a Krispy crème donut the tube of a circle.

The donut is a "torus". 

Re: Anyone used multicouche water tubes? Probably for the francophiles
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2020, 02:05:48 pm »
It is a plastic tub, and the t piece is is the right angles are 16mm, and the straight on is 12mm.  This issue is that the 16mm joint has a 14mm pipe and then solder filling the gap.  So heat IMO is not an option as I'm not sure what would happen.

Maybe push fit.

Have you considered these joints?

https://www.bricodepot.fr/varennes-vauzelles/te-pour-tube-cuivre-ou-per--14-mm-avec-sortie-femelle-15x21-mm/prod35743/

They are not cheap, but with the proper combination of press fit and threaded joints, you can join together copper pipes of any diameter with no heat and a minimum of tools. All you need is a clean cut with an angle grinder, then file the burr and clean up everything with steel wool before inserting the joints.

A