Author Topic: RAAAAAWWWRR!  (Read 3601 times)

Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #50 on: October 05, 2020, 03:21:20 pm »
While I don't think there's any reason why the women couldn't race over the same distances, the male monuments tend to be excessively long on purpose. The male LBL route is over 100km longer than the UCI max race distance for women.  Given the difference in size/depth of field, I think that they would be significantly slower over the same course, and given Roglic's time was over 6 and a half hours, having races of over 7 hours would probably result in fewer finishers and less interesting racing. At least with the current setup, the womens race has the same finish as the mens one, meaning you can recognise the route and the tactics etc. Live TV for a 4 hour race would be much more beneficial than equal routes IMO.

Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2020, 03:42:07 pm »
Given the difference in size/depth of field, I think that they would be significantly slower over the same course, and given Roglic's time was over 6 and a half hours, having races of over 7 hours would probably result in fewer finishers,,,,,
Really? I'm not so sure about that.

Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #52 on: October 05, 2020, 04:27:16 pm »
The bare numbers for 2020:
For LBL Women, 56 riders finished, and 82 withdrew.
For LBL men, 125 finished, 50 withdrew.

Maybe there are different incentives at play, and finishing is more important for the men. Maybe I missed a significant crash. Maybe the weather was significantly harder on the Saturday than the Sunday. Maybe there's some other effect at play here that I'm not aware of. The last rider on the mens side was 13 minutes down on the winner, the last rider on the womans side was 11 minutes down, so there's not a significant time limit effect.

I like watching womens racing, and I'd rather watch the Giro Rosa than the Tour because much more happens every day. In part, I think that's because the peleton (and individual teams within it) are not as strong, so attacks are much more likely to be successful. I'm definitely not trying to be critical of the riders/teams here. The mens side of the sport has been developed in a way that the womens hasn't (and for that I am critical of the UCI), meaning there are so many more professional teams and riders in the mens peleton than in the womens peleton. Hence size/depth of fields.

zigzag

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Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #53 on: October 05, 2020, 06:29:34 pm »
Oops
almost identical scenario at one of the local races i watched a month ago, it was funny!


quixoticgeek

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Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #54 on: October 06, 2020, 11:22:40 am »
While I don't think there's any reason why the women couldn't race over the same distances, the male monuments tend to be excessively long on purpose. The male LBL route is over 100km longer than the UCI max race distance for women.  Given the difference in size/depth of field, I think that they would be significantly slower over the same course, and given Roglic's time was over 6 and a half hours, having races of over 7 hours would probably result in fewer finishers and less interesting racing. At least with the current setup, the womens race has the same finish as the mens one, meaning you can recognise the route and the tactics etc. Live TV for a 4 hour race would be much more beneficial than equal routes IMO.

Then reduce the men's to the same as the women's. If you're not prepared to increase the women's max distance, then why are you willing for the men's to be so long?

Maybe then the men's racing would be a bit more interesting to watch...

J
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Karla

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Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #55 on: October 06, 2020, 11:48:47 am »
Then reduce the men's to the same as the women's.
Reduce the length of LBL?  Next you'll suggest taking the cobbles out of Paris Roubaix  :facepalm:

quixoticgeek

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Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2020, 12:04:11 pm »
Reduce the length of LBL?  Next you'll suggest taking the cobbles out of Paris Roubaix  :facepalm:
Then reduce the men's to the same as the women's.

I just want the men and the women to race the same race. If they aren't prepared to make the women's race longer, then they need to make the mens race shorter.

J
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Karla

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Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #57 on: October 06, 2020, 12:29:31 pm »
So if you've got one good event and can't find a way to have two good events, you should kill the one and have no good events.  Amazing.

You've heard the expression about cutting off your nose to spite your face, right?

rob

Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #58 on: October 06, 2020, 12:30:32 pm »
I see a range of commentators, analysts and people on here suggesting levelling the distances out and I have seen it work on the track.

Has anyone asked the actual competitors their view on this.   Would we not be forcing the women to race for 7hrs instead of 3/4 just for our entertainment ?

quixoticgeek

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Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #59 on: October 06, 2020, 01:15:39 pm »
I see a range of commentators, analysts and people on here suggesting levelling the distances out and I have seen it work on the track.

Has anyone asked the actual competitors their view on this.   Would we not be forcing the women to race for 7hrs instead of 3/4 just for our entertainment ?

Are we not asking the men to race for 7 hours, rather than 3/4 just for our entertainment?

J
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rob

Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #60 on: October 06, 2020, 01:36:48 pm »
I see a range of commentators, analysts and people on here suggesting levelling the distances out and I have seen it work on the track.

Has anyone asked the actual competitors their view on this.   Would we not be forcing the women to race for 7hrs instead of 3/4 just for our entertainment ?

Are we not asking the men to race for 7 hours, rather than 3/4 just for our entertainment?

J

250ish k is the standard for a men's classic.   Roglic covered the course in 6:32.   I believe the races are this long because that's the way they have always been, but it seems to be a sufficient test of speed and stamina.   Possibly also because that's how far it is from Liege to Bastogne and Paris to Roubaix, etc.

Trek put a picture of Lizzie Deignan and Elisa Longo Borghini after the finish of LBL.   They were smashed.   Fancy asking them to put another couple of hours in ?

To be honest, apart from the worlds which I had on the TV for the whole race, I only ever watch the highlights or the last hour of a race.   I'm not that interested.

Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #61 on: October 06, 2020, 01:48:28 pm »
One-day bike races are a bit odd.  A long period of attrition (eased on flatter races because you can sit at the back of the peloton and not do much) followed by a short sprint at the end,  OK, there are exceptions, but these days breakaways on non-mountain stages tend to be caught because of radio communication.

If the races were shorter, a few more riders would make it to the finish and the sprint could be faster and more hotly contested,  That's not a bad thing.

Circuit races, including the Worlds, bore me rigid.
And Darkness and Decay and the Coronavirus held illimitable dominion over all.

TimC

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Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #62 on: October 06, 2020, 02:18:21 pm »
I'm not sure we achieve equal opportunity or equal entertainment by insisting on equal distances.

Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #63 on: October 06, 2020, 02:52:43 pm »
While I don't think there's any reason why the women couldn't race over the same distances, the male monuments tend to be excessively long on purpose. The male LBL route is over 100km longer than the UCI max race distance for women.  Given the difference in size/depth of field, I think that they would be significantly slower over the same course, and given Roglic's time was over 6 and a half hours, having races of over 7 hours would probably result in fewer finishers and less interesting racing. At least with the current setup, the womens race has the same finish as the mens one, meaning you can recognise the route and the tactics etc. Live TV for a 4 hour race would be much more beneficial than equal routes IMO.

Then reduce the men's to the same as the women's. If you're not prepared to increase the women's max distance, then why are you willing for the men's to be so long?

Maybe then the men's racing would be a bit more interesting to watch...
I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't change the race length (or max distance). I'm just saying that it would change the racing. In my view, I want this sort of classic to be hard enough that there is an even chance of a small bunch sprint, a solo breakaway, or a reasonable sized (30?) bunch kick. The length/course needs to be hard enough to make that happen (but not too hard that simply finishing gets you in the top 10). LBL on the weekend achieved that for both events - you didn't know if Deignan was going to get caught by Grace Brown or the group behind, and likewise in the men's race there was a small select group playing games while they were being pursued by Mohrich and the VdP led group behind them. If the mens LBL is 135km long, then you end up with a finish with 100 riders contesting it, because it's just not selective enough and the teams have the firepower to hold it all together. As the women's peleton becomes stronger, the only way (on the same route) to make the selection possible will be to lengthen the race.

Why do we love these bike races? For me, it's the spectacle, and the drama, and elite athletes dragging everything out of each other over one day, and may the strongest/smartest rider/team win. The route, whether hills or mountains or cobbles is just a means to an end, and if the racing is great then we all win. I'm so looking forward to Roubaix, especially the first women's race over those famous cobbles.

Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #64 on: October 06, 2020, 02:58:31 pm »
I think there are arguments in all directions: 200km of a futile break going away then being caught followed by a sprint is exciting for about the last 5-10km. I believe men's races are getting shorter - certainly compared to back at the beginning when they would do huge distances. I think Milan - San Remo is the last vestige of this kind of thing?

On the other hand the current differences between men's and women's races are just patronising when women race things like Ironman and UTMB on exactly the same courses as the men.
On the other hand again we can't deny that men are faster and stronger than women so a woman's race over the same course will always take longer. That's a fact, but it isn't the same as saying that the woman's race should not happen.
There are some races which are very long precisely because part of the challenge is a stamina challenge and men need more challenge because they have greater stamina.

One thing I have wondered about it somehow arranging things so that women's races should take roughly the same time as the men?
(Biathlon is interesting in this regard - basically the race goes "ski a loop, shoot, ski the loop again, shoot again, repeat until race done, finish with ski loop". The men's loops are always slightly longer than the women's for the same format of race and the outcome is that the men's race will take a little bit longer than the women. Some might see this as a good compromise, and others might say that all races should run over the same course.)

Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #65 on: October 06, 2020, 03:21:36 pm »
For the men's races, Milan San Remo is around 300km. The other 4 monuments tend to be about 260, but have more hills or cobbles (or both). The semi-classics tend to be 210 or less.

CrazyEnglishTriathlete

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Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #66 on: October 07, 2020, 01:50:38 pm »
While I don't think there's any reason why the women couldn't race over the same distances, the male monuments tend to be excessively long on purpose. The male LBL route is over 100km longer than the UCI max race distance for women.  Given the difference in size/depth of field, I think that they would be significantly slower over the same course, and given Roglic's time was over 6 and a half hours, having races of over 7 hours would probably result in fewer finishers and less interesting racing. At least with the current setup, the womens race has the same finish as the mens one, meaning you can recognise the route and the tactics etc. Live TV for a 4 hour race would be much more beneficial than equal routes IMO.

Then reduce the men's to the same as the women's. If you're not prepared to increase the women's max distance, then why are you willing for the men's to be so long?

Maybe then the men's racing would be a bit more interesting to watch...

J

Watching the last couple of days of the Giro I think you may have a point.  Shortening the men's classic races would require the top riders to attack pretty much from the gun, rather than a forlorn hope going down the road for a few hours before the racing proper starts.  No doubt traditionalists would raise all sorts of objections - but there is a sort of parallel in cricket - where the global money and fame is as much in the shortest version of the game (20-20) as in the traditional form (test matches).
Eddington Numbers 125 (imperial), 175 (metric) 529 (furlongs)  112 (nautical miles)

Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #67 on: October 18, 2020, 07:06:57 pm »
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Mr Larrington

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Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #68 on: October 18, 2020, 07:13:42 pm »
Bethany (10):LOLZ0RZ :thumbsup:
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Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #69 on: October 18, 2020, 08:48:47 pm »
The curse of the rainbow jersey strikes again !

Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #70 on: October 18, 2020, 08:57:30 pm »
I was talking about Gianni Bugno only today. Won the Worlds in 91 and 92, won almost nothing in 93.
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TimC

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Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #71 on: October 19, 2020, 12:52:42 pm »
Have to say that using the radio while on a bike and not looking where you're going is pretty similar to using a mobile while driving...

Salvatore

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Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #72 on: October 19, 2020, 05:21:16 pm »
Injury more complicated than it originally appeared

Quote
et avec John, excellent lecteur de road-book, on s'en est sortis sans erreur

Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #73 on: October 22, 2020, 09:15:45 pm »
Jumbo Visma has announced a women’s team for 2021